so what if NJ becomes shall issue

[springfieldxds 0]

so i was thinking today, if NJ is ever forced to become shall issue nothing will change, we all know theyll restrict it so much that it wouldnt be any different than it is now, theyll make almost everywhere a restricted zone or all times a restricted time

 

they can charge a few thousand dollars for the permit and put a 12 month waiting period on it

 

we dont have a stand your ground law and probably never will so even if you had to defend yourself youll be looking at some pretty hard time

 

they can make all of NJ a discharge free zone with a minimum 5 year sentence with no exceptions for self defense

 

heck they can limit the rounds were allowed to carry to just one round at all times

 

they can make it a law that we have to inform an officer that were armed, if were within 100 feet of an officer

 

my point is even if scotus rules ccing is protected under the second amendment theyll still find ways to make it impossiple to carry or defend yourself

 

i hope im wrong but the way this state is going i dont think i am

[mikeyboyeee 66]

And the point of all of your nonsensical speculation?

[Secret Squirrel 3]

What in NJ decides to move Guantanamo Bay here and imprison all gun holders, or they move us all to concentration camps, or we are forced to work menial labor. Hell they could just start shooting us.

 

 

I can make pointless speculation too.

[springfieldxds 0]

What in NJ decides to move Guantanamo Bay here and imprison all gun holders, or they move us all to concentration camps, or we are forced to work menial labor. Hell they could just start shooting us.

 

 

I can make pointless speculation too.

 

i think my speculations seem a little bit more realistic

[springfieldxds 0]

And the point of all of your nonsensical speculation?

 

no point other than even if we get what we want it wont change the state were in

[woodentoe 14]

You've given up hope. Pack your things and leave.

[BigHayden 77]

Check Owl's house for your tail, Eeyore.

[alowerlevel 77]

Check Owl's house for your tail, Eeyore.

 

Ths made me lol. Thanks for the laugh today.

[DbleTrouble 8]

Somebody is getting paranoid.

 

You make it sound like somebody is just going to make the laws. Laws and bills are voted in.

[springfieldxds 0]

I'll admit I'm a little worried about this state and where's it going, I try hard to fight for our rights but it always seems like it goes no where, the politicians never listen to us and dont care what we have to say i mean even the NRA gave up on NJ, I hope one day things will change I just don't see it happening in my life, but if I can help make things better for my children then that's good enough for me

[PDM 91]

There are limits on government's ability to flout the law, even in NJ. Everything depends on how the Supreme Court rules, and after the 7th circuit decision about Illinois carry it is virtually guaranteed that this will go before the Supreme court. If the Supreme Court affirms the 7th circuit (and hopefully the 3rd circuit, if the NJ case goes our way) and holds that the 2A applies outside the home, NJ will almost certainly have to go shall issue. There also would certainly be training and testing requirements -- one option would be to simply apply the same permit requirements that retired cops now undergo (training and yearly qualification in order to obtain a permit). But if the state goes too far -- for example by charging $1000 for a permit or requiring testing at one range in the Pinelands with appointments available once every six months or some other similar shennanigans -- they run the very real risk that citizens will ignore the permitting requirements and carry anyway, in reliance on the Supreme Court ruling. In other words being too unreasonable could result in de facto constituional carry in this state. If they ever tried to prosecute a person under such an unreasonable statute the state would stand a very good chance of losing.

[PDM 91]

One other point. While the OP does ask us to engage in a round of intellectual masturbation, the question highlights an important issue. If we ultimately do win this fight in court, whether at the 3rd circuit, the Supreme Court or both, there will be a lot of leeway for the state to play around. At that point, the person in the Governor's office will be critical.

 

Christie gets a lot of flack for being a "RINO", not a friend of gun owners, etc. But ask yourself this: If the NJ carry statute is held unconstitutional and the legislature needs to come up with a fix, who would you want that new law presented to for signature, Christie or Corey Booker (for example). I have a feeling that, if faced with a clear ruling that the 2A applies outside the home, Christie would easily sign a law that has training requirements and testing, but not one that is so burdensome as to effectively render the permitting process meaningless. He'd sign a new law that pushes into the grey zone of constitutionality, but not one that crosses the line. I could easily see a guy like Booker more than willingly sign a law that effectively nullifies carry outside the home and then say "sue us". Think about that when the next election comes around.

[Zeke 5,504]

I see no problem with testing and training for a ccw permit. As long as the $ bar is not set so high to be obtainable.

 

The people who run this state, and the majority that live here, are 2 distinctively different breeds of cat.

[Zeke 5,504]

Why does a retired Leo have " justifiable need" and I do not? Under the current law.

[PDM 91]

Zeke -- retired LEOs don't need to show justifiable need. A separate law was passed that speficially allows them to carry, if they undergo annual re-certification.

[Qel Hoth 33]

I see no problem with testing and training for a ccw permit. As long as the $ bar is not set so high to be obtainable.

 

The people who run this state, and the majority that live here, are 2 distinctively different breeds of cat.

 

Who determines what is "obtainable?" Do people who can't afford $1000 fee not derserve the right? $500? $250? $100?

[Zeke 5,504]

Zeke -- retired LEOs don't need to show justifiable need. A separate law was passed that speficially allows them to carry, if they undergo annual re-certification.

Pdm,

Thank you.

Logically that law makes zero sense to me.

A civilian is a civilian.

[Zeke 5,504]

 

 

Who determines what is "obtainable?" Do people who can't afford $1000 fee not derserve the right? $500? $250? $100?

Exactly!

Another loophole

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Zeke -- retired LEOs don't need to show justifiable need. A separate law was passed that speficially allows them to carry, if they undergo annual re-certification.

 

Even then, it's more trouble than it's worth in NJ. At least from what I've heard.

[woodentoe 14]

I'm unopposed to training requirements. It works in Virginia, Delaware, Ohio, etc.

 

I think any fee should be nominal for the clerical work and paper. Certainly no more than what it costs for a P2P.

 

Cost of training is an issue. Who decides what course is adequate? What is the cost to the permitee? Is there any cost to the State (taxpayers)

 

What do they do in training states that are shall-issue?

[Midwest 28]

What do they do in training states that are shall-issue?

 

Kentucky

 

http://www.kc3.com/k...nse_process.htm

 

 

The first step is to sign up for a training course offered by an instructor certified by the KY Department of Criminal Justice Training (DOCJT). The list of certified instructors that are also KC3 members is found here. The complete list of certified instructors for a particular county can be obtained from each county sheriff or the statewide list can be found here on the DOCJT website. In addition, your favorite gun store or firearms range can usually point you toward a class and some will even provide the service on premises.

 

 

The instructor may, by statute, charge up to $75 (it is very rarely offered any cheaper) and he is also allowed to assess a nominal fee for range rental and expendables up to $10. It is always best to ask the instructor ahead of time for specific instructions, but you will likely need to have the following items available at the class:

• a handgun of any caliber or type (it does NOT have to be the one you intend to carry)
  
• 50 rounds of ammunition specific to the gun you will be using
  
• a holster or case for the gun
  
• a pistol cleaning kit suitable for the gun you will be using
  
• eye and ear protection
  
• a pen and some paper to take notes during the course
  

ALL guns must be UNLOADED and UNCONCEALED when brought into the classroom and all guns WILL be inspected for serviceability by the instructor prior to the shooting exam.

During the course, you will watch two hours of video training which covers the Kentucky Revised Statutes (KRS) on Firearms and Carrying Concealed Deadly Weapons (CCDW) and the Use & Misuse of Force and Liability.

 

 

Both of these videos are produced by DOCJT. While these tapes are a bit tedious to sit through, they provide you with valuable instruction on the KY statutes regarding firearms, concealed carry procedures and licensing, and most importantly, the legally justifiable use of deadly force. In addition to the tapes, you will receive instruction on safety in the classroom, at home, and on the range, the principles of marksmanship, and pistol and revolver nomenclature and function. You will then be required to pass a written test to demonstrate that you have absorbed the information that has been presented.

 

 

Next you will fire at a standard police training silhouette target (type B-21) at a range of seven yards. You must place eleven (11) out of twenty (20) shots within the outline of the silhouette to qualify for your license. The instructor may conduct as many practice rounds as necessary, until he or she feels comfortable with the students' skill level and ability to pass. Only one retest is permitted. After the shooting test you will clean your gun and it will be inspected by the instructor for the purpose of demonstrating that you can maintain your weapon.

 

When you satisfactorily complete the course of instruction, the instructor will notify DOCJT that you have met the training requirements necessary to apply for your license and a few weeks later you will receive a certificate from the DOCJT. You will next present this certificate to the sheriff of your county of residence along with your application, a “head and shoulders” photograph of yourself 4”x5” in size, proof of residence, and the application fee of sixty dollars ($60).

 

Keep in mind that ALL of the information you submit with your application is done under oath and any materially false answer to any question could subject you to prosecution under the perjury statutes.

 

Since the sheriff is allowed some leeway in the application process, it is always best to call the sheriff of your county of residence in advance of your visit to his office to get the specific requirements for the application. Sometimes the sheriff will shoot the picture for you for an additional charge; letting them do the picture guarantees its acceptance. Keep in mind that Polaroid pictures are usually accepted, only if the pose and size are correct, but "passport" photos are too small. When you call to ask about the picture options, be sure to ask what constitutes proof of residency. Get his office hours also, some departments only do CCDW license applications at certain times and many have “bankers” hours.

 

The sheriff will transmit your application to The Kentucky State Police (KSP) who will then verify your qualifications, do a background check on you and, provided you qualify in all respects, will issue your license and send it back to the sheriff for you to pick up. It usually takes 3-6 weeks for the KSP to do their job but they are allowed 90 days under the law to issue the license or deny the application.

 

When your license is sent to the sheriff for issuance, you will receive notification in the mail in the form of a “flashpak” with instructions to pick it up. TAKE THE FLASHPAK WITH YOU and trade it to the sheriff for your license. You are now free to carry concealed deadly weapons in the Commonwealth of KY, as well as a number of other states that accept licenses issued by KY, SUBJECT TO the procedures and restrictions set by the various states and sometimes localities. The list of states with reciprocity / recognition is constantly growing, go here for the most up-to-date information.

[pbkid6974 1]

Or we could have a class like Utah. I have their non resident permit. I would be fine with another class like that to be able to carry here in NJ.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Logically...

Careful with that...

[Midwest 28]

I thought I mention about the state next to me, Ohio. I have heard stories that people have applied for carry permits and got them in just a couple of days to a week in Hamilton and Butler Counties.

[TheSmokingGun 0]

 

we dont have a stand your ground law and probably never will so even if you had to defend yourself youll be looking at some pretty hard time

 

 

That's the kicker right there. Always talking about getting the mythical CCW, but if NJGFers dreams ever came true, the permit wouldn't be very useful anyway. Disgruntled Judges could rule against you in just about any circumstance as long as there is no stand your ground law.

[woodentoe 14]

That's the kicker right there. Always talking about getting the mythical CCW, but if NJGFers dreams ever came true, the permit wouldn't be very useful anyway. Disgruntled Judges could rule against you in just about any circumstance as long as there is no stand your ground law.

 

False. There is a Stand Your Ground law....In your home, you have no duty to retreat. Coincidentally, it is also the only place you can carry your firearm. :-)

 

On the street, you have a duty to try and get away. But, if you can't get away you may meet force with force. I'm 36 years old and weigh over 300 pounds. There is no way I'm outrunning 2 or 3 late teens/early 20s assailants when I'm at my most vulnerable (in the parking deck late at night after work)

[KpdPipes 388]

Pdm,

Thank you.

Logically that law makes zero sense to me.

A civilian is a civilian.

 

it was passed because NJ was one of the few states that didnt automatically allow retirees to carry. NJ's law had to be amended to allow HR-218 to go through.

[KpdPipes 388]

Even then, it's more trouble than it's worth in NJ. At least from what I've heard.

 

it can be..it's funny though I can carry OUTSIDE of NJ anywhere in the country as long as I have my retired ID and some proof that i've qualified in the last year. here I have to pony up the money for the permit every year, and the money to Qual Twice a year at IIRC $75.00 per session not including ammo plus the $50 application fee and $10.00 "Flag Fee" (WTF That is) it ends up costing $210 per year to maintain your permit..and more on top of that to keep your SORA card if you are working...thats why a lot of guys just dont bother

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

it can be..it's funny though I can carry OUTSIDE of NJ anywhere in the country as long as I have my retired ID and some proof that i've qualified in the last year. here I have to pony up the money for the permit every year, and the money to Qual Twice a year at IIRC $75.00 per session not including ammo plus the $50 application fee and $10.00 "Flag Fee" (WTF That is) it ends up costing $210 per year to maintain your permit..and more on top of that to keep your SORA card if you are working...thats why a lot of guys just dont bother

 

No looking forward to that b.s.

[PDM 91]

Personally, I also have no problem with a training requirement and in fact think it is a good idea. The 2A clearly applies outside the home, but I also think the government does have a heightened interest in regulating carry outside the home which warrants a training requirement. I personally would like to see it outsourced to the NRA. They already have personal protection outside the home and CCW courses set up. Realistically, I think anyone who wants to carry needs, at a minimum, to have taken a basic pistol class and then at least 2 days/16 hours of in depth concealed carry training with both classroom time on permitted use of force, conflict de-escalation techniques, dry firing and drawing from a holster, and live range time. I also think an initial qualification test and recertification every few years, including an updated bacgkround check, should be required. As long as the training is offerred and conducted in good faith, and presumably it would be if overseen by the NRA, I'd have no problem with it.