A good non-1911 non-GLOCK .45

[45Doll 5,877]

JDS: yes, it does. What exact model did you handle?

 

Be aware that the newer E2 grip can be installed on a 220, which slims the grip further and makes it somewhat more ergonomic. (IMO)

 

And, the P220 SAO operates like a 1911, if that's desirable. A Sig with only one trigger pull and carried Condition 1. This model was the preference of my instructor at Sig Academy. (Note: the E2 may not fit on a P220 SAO.)

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

 

The parts aren't as durable as they once were. My own immediate observation is that out of the box triggers on older SIGs are also better.

 

Here is some further reading. The fact that this debate even exists, especially on a forum where many people know what they're talking about, should be enough to raise questions.

 

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=117571

 

There's a few more threads like the one above too.

 

Oh, excuse me - it was on the Internet? Then it must be true.

 

I would imagine that the sample of guns you tested would hardly be statistically significant. The Internet is a two-edged sword: You can find a lot of good information here, but you have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. The Internet gives great weight to a vocal few, magnifying both good and bad traits. I try to avoid sweeping generalizations and repeating things that I've read on the Internet, as fact. I own what is probably a statistically insignificant number of Sigs, but that cover a pretty broad date range - from folded slides to monolithic ones and I have had zero problems with MY Sigs.

 

Buy what you like and what feels good to you. Any of the firearms mentioned in this thread are from reliable manufacturers who will stand behind their product, should the need arise - and there is no manufacturer out there with a perfect record.

 

JMHO

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[acaixguard 37]

Oh, excuse me - it was on the Internet? Then it must be true.

 

I would imagine that the sample of guns you tested would hardly be statistically significant. The Internet is a two-edged sword: You can find a lot of good information here, but you have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. The Internet gives great weight to a vocal few, magnifying both good and bad traits. I try to avoid sweeping generalizations and repeating things that I've read on the Internet, as fact. I own what is probably a statistically insignificant number of Sigs, but that cover a pretty broad date range - from folded slides to monolithic ones and I have had zero problems with MY Sigs.

Yes, the internet is to be taken with a grain of salt. But by that statement, anything you say and I are saying shouldn't be taken seriously either right? After all, positive or negative statements on a gun can be discounted just the same.

 

And yes, I'm well aware of separating fact from fiction. The vetting process involves knowing which sources tend to have more credible sources. I don't want to get into which forums are better, but the reason I spend the more time on a particular forum vs anywhere else online is due to the reputations and known credibility of some of the members. When I see a pattern of repeated observations from some of those folks, along with my own personal observations, it's probably safe to give it a little more thought.

 

Here's an example..

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=133869

 

DocGKR, who is Dr. Gary Roberts, is a known ballistics expert in the industry. And of course, Ken Hackathorn needs no introduction. Scroll down to where Doc summarizes what Ken said about various pistols, including Glocks and recent SIGs. Would it be wise to discount what the say, just because you read it on a forum? This is an example of how to properly vet what is written online.

 

And forgetting what I read online, I've heard in person, from known professionals including Ken, that SIGs are not what they used to be.

 

Not to mention, from a corporate perspective, it makes sense. The same guy (Ron Cohen) who turned Kimber into a joke of a company is now doing the same thing to SIG.

(Oops, I said it...Kimbers do absolutely suck now!)

[High Exposure 5,664]

I have to agree. Since Cohen took the reigns at Sig their product has steadily declined, generally in proportion to their sillier products (Diamondplated Slides and all the special editions ) and blatant rip-offs (their Micro RDS). Does anyone need reminding of the debacle that was the Sig250?

 

I have seen new Sigs right out on the box unable to fire 2 rounds in a row on multiple occasions. I also know of numerous agencies that were "Sig Departments" for the last 20 years drop them after T&E-ing their recent products. These were big PDs and not an insignificant sample of their products. Other agencies culled Sigs from their testing in the first round. Like Acaixguard I train with a lot of companies that in turn train many shooters all over the country. These well known and well vetted instructors have no agenda and don't care what you shoot as long as it works. When their experiences and observations after watching hundreds of thousands of rounds go downrange through the guns of hundreds of shooters mimic my admittedly statistically small observations and experiences along with that of fellow shooters that I trust, well, in my job that's called a clue.

 

Their standard products (226/229/239/220) maybe still holding their own but they are not the Sig they used to be.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

@acaixguard

 

You are correct, there are some sources that are more credible than others, and the two you use as an example are certainly credible - but again, they are espousing their subjective opinions.

 

There are those Sig fans who worship the folded slide and perceive the monolithic slides as Sig heresy - thus creating a negative impression. But is the folded slide really better? I have seen folded slides that crack with long term use - I have yet to see a monolithic SS slide do that. Which do I prefer? The folded slide, because I like the way the gun balances and carries. That doesn't make them better and, in fact, someone reading that the folded slides may crack would most likely think that is a negative.

 

I think Kimber's woes have nothing to do with Ron Cohen - he has been gone from there a long time and anything that may have been caused by him has had ample time to be remedied. Yes, he often flies in the face of conventionalists, but he's running a company, not trying to build a fan club. If gun companies had to live off products only targeted for conventionalists, we'd find ourselves sans firearms quicker than any politician could effect the same. Ron was well enough thought of as CEO of (then) Sigarms, that the owners made him CEO of Sig worldwide. I have met & spoken with Ron and I was duly impressed - all the more reason why I don't give a lot of credence to those who lay the blame for Kimbers QC (if indeed there is a problem, and even I believe that there is, but I also believe that it has more to do with the volume of the product they produce) at Cohen's door.

 

15 years from now people will be bemoaning the quality of current firearms and stating how much better they were in the 20-teens. I have been around long enough that I have seen this cycle a couple times over.

 

I simply entered into this conversation so that the OP wouldn't dismiss, out of hand, some very fine firearms put forth in this thread based on Internet lore put forth by others. I encourage the OP to do their own research, reach their own conclusions and buy accordingly.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[acaixguard 37]

Regarding the stamped/folded slide of the older SIGs vs the forgings of the newer ones, I agree with you there. I preferred the stamped ones cause they made the overall gun feel nicer, but nobody would argue that they are stronger than the newer stainless slides. People liked the stamped slides because they just worked, and very little went wrong with SIGs back in those days.

I believe the complaints about current SIGs have more to do with the quality of the smaller parts, along with the overall fit. Not to rely completely on what's typed on the errornet, but it's been stated multiple times that SIG began outsourcing the production of those small parts several years ago. I don't have absolute verification of this, but the fact that it's been stated enough times makes me at least think about it.

Regarding Cohen, nobody doubts his ability to bring financial success to a company. He is a proven CEO. But we're not talking about a company's increased revenue right (at least I'm not)? Cohen obviously knows a thing or two about marketing, and also how to improve production cost efficiency. What this translates to is funky and often outlandish pistol designs, and most cheaper components and less production time spent per product. While this obviously makes the executive team/board happy, it doesn't put a smile on the faces of those who just care about receiving a top quality product in the end. Maybe the latter represents the minority of the shooting population, but again, I'm talking from the standpoint of an end user who wants the most highly engineered and durable pistol for the money vs those who measure a company's reputation by their financials.

[jds560 0]

As I stated earlier, I prefer to buy used because it's typically cheaper. I'm sure I can find a P220 West German make on Armslist for around $500-600 and as most of you have mentioned these are stronger. I'm not the type of person that cares where things are made, as long as they function correctly I don't even care how they look. Finishes can be reapplied and most parts replaced. 

 

I've yet to hold the HK45, but it certainly looks like a fine weapon. I like the spiderman/venom type webbing on the grip. I have a GLOCK 30 already that's the only reason I'm not considering an OD green GLOCK 21. The FNX is a nice weapon as well. I had an opportunity to handle the FNX 40 and it felt great. I felt the 45 and the only thing I didn't like were the magazine baseplates. I don't like how they're a round egg like shape. I'd assume these can be replaced though. 

 

I'd like to avoid this becoming a comparison/bashing thread. Obscurity is something I value and if you know of an odd decent quality .45 gun, please suggest it. I always like the look people give me when they see my CZ and don't know what the hell it is. When I bought my Hi-Power, people at the gunshop didn't know what it was! It's a good feeling to me. 

[jds560 0]

Sorry for the double post, how about the Taurus 24/7 OSS. Looks AMAZING. I'm not looking for people to bag on Taurus here, I'm asking for experience with the firearm! 

[High Exposure 5,664]

Typically tihe guns that are obscure are obscure for a reason - They don't work.

 

Certain makes are out there in great numbers because they consistently meet all the needs of the end users - reliable, accurate, good ergonomics, easy to maintain, & affordable.

 

I would avoid Taurus. They may "look" amazing but they do not have a great track record for reliability over a high round count.

[bry@n 195]

Sig 220, s&w 625, hk45

[lunker 274]

I'd like to avoid this becoming a comparison/bashing thread. Obscurity is something I value and if you know of an odd decent quality .45 gun, please suggest it. I always like the look people give me when they see my CZ and don't know what the hell it is. When I bought my Hi-Power, people at the gunshop didn't know what it was! It's a good feeling to me.

Any gunshop where they have never seen a Browning HiPower (one of the most classic and popularly used designs in the world for the 20th century) is one I would avoid. Glocks R' Us?

[n4p226r 105]

p220.  and i dont think the new sigs are junk.  

[jds560 0]

The Sig is still the frontrunner here. Going to see if I can check out an FNX-45 again and the HK45 too. I've been on armslist in my limited free time and despite it being a 1911 style gun, I like the Para P14-45.

[acaixguard 37]

I've been on armslist in my limited free time and despite it being a 1911 style gun, I like the Para P14-45.

 

Oh man, not to rain on your choices, but I'd avoid the Para at all costs. Para belongs in the same class as Taurus, Kel-Tec, etc. That is, avoid at all costs!

Paras are regarded by any serious 1911 as among the worst of the big names. They are known for incredibly crappy parts and poor fit, along with a poor reliability record. When I say crappy parts, I mean pretty much every piece of the gun, including the frame.

Talk to any reputable 1911 pistolsmith, and you'll likely hear similar sentiments.

[Bob2222 317]

What else should I consider? I like weird European guns. 

 

The original version of the P220 was called the Browning BDA (Browning Double Action) and was made in Germany for Browning by Sig-Sauer. 

 

Sig-Sauer bought it back from Browning and renamed it the P220.

 

Would a Sig-Sauer P220 that says "Browning" be weird enough? (Not that I'm sure you can find one at the drop of a hat. They probably show up occasionally on the auction sites. )

[jrfly3006 42]

The Sig is still the frontrunner here. Going to see if I can check out an FNX-45 again and the HK45 too. I've been on armslist in my limited free time and despite it being a 1911 style gun, I like the Para P14-45.

Atlantic Tactical in Somerset usually has one or two FNX45's in stock if you wanna try it

[deleteme 0]

 

Oh wait...

[High Exposure 5,664]

That's actually a pretty good 'shop!

[AdamaSys 0]

Here is my brand new P227.  I can't speak for its performance since I've yet to shoot it, but the build quality is superb.

 

[blksheep 466]

That's actually a pretty good 'shop!

+1

[rauchman 3]

I'd highly suggest the M&P 45. If you are dead set against a striker gun, then the HK45.

No offense but I'd stay away from any of the guns you listed. None of them are known for quality. SIGs used to be, but their QC took a nosedive since 2005 or so.

This!  I have an M&P45 and an HK USP45F, along w/ a Gen4 G21.  While the Wilson is a great 1911, it is VERY expensive.  Sig's QC is not what it once was and wouldn't pay for a new one.  I'd consider a used one though.  The P220 is a VERY accurate pistol.  The Jericho,....errr, ahhhh....... no.

 

The M&P45 has really surprised me it's ergo's, 2nd shot controllability and accuracy.  Very nice pistol for not a crazy amount of $.  The HK's are, well they are excellent uber combat pistols that are not cheap.  Excellent accuracy, durability and reliability.  It doesn't get much better in a service type pistol.