Does FOPA really protect NJ residents traveling to PA?

[maintenanceguy 510]

I'm doing some traveling this summer and plan to utilize my brandy new UT CCW permit as soon as I cross into America.  I've been carefully researching ccw laws and federal transport laws just to be sure I'm not going to get myself into any trouble.  Growing up in the  PRNJ really makes a person paranoid. 

 

I've been looking into FOPA - Firearms Owners Protection Act.  FOPA says in part :

 

FOPA:
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

 

 

If "place" means the specific place I leave from - my house - I'm okay because I can lawfully possess and carry in my house.  Unfortunately, I've found legal opinions that "place" means state.  I can't lawfully possess and carry in my state and if "place" really means "state", It would seem that NJ residents are not protected by FOPA at all.

[Pythagoras 2]

Yikes. Haven't thought about that before, but I'm going to hazard a guess that you're overthinking it. What does everyone else think?

[Anselmo 87]

Are these legal opinions from lawyers or just random forum people?  The law says "place" it could just have easily said "state" if they wanted it to mean state.  Since it says "place", it means your home in NJ to a range or another home or any place you can carry in another state. 

 

There is a whole other line of faulty logic that you are locked in NJ and can't leave with your gun for the purposes of CCW in another state.

[maintenanceguy 510]

Yikes. Haven't thought about that before, but I'm going to hazard a guess that you're overthinking it. What does everyone else think?

 

Absolutely, I'm over thinking it.  I grew up with guns, a lot of guns. I still shoot in my back yard several times a week.  Took my 6 year old to a gun shop today and he proudly told the counter guys about the gun's he's shot with dad.   Down here in deep south jersey, it's more like Kentucky than New York and we're pretty much isolated from the big brother state.  Even the Troopers here are gun friendly.   The local elementary school colors are hunter orange and camo (not kidding).  And until very recently, I was oblivious to the issues that other gun owners in NJ face.  Getting FIDs and P2Ps is a pain but other than that, the concept that I own guns at my peril was silly to me.

 

But my experience obviously isn't the same as the rest of the state and that worries me...a little.  And even if I'm over thinking it, all it takes is one police officer, one prosecutor, and one jury that believe "place" means "state" and somebody could do real time.  It won't deter me from ccw out of state but it is something to consider.

[illy 1]

You don't need FOPA to transport your guns (unloaded/trunk/etc) from your home to a range in PA (which is where you're headed, right?   ).

 

You're legal under NJ law.

[TooBigToFit 2]

Someone at the PAFOA actually did extensive research on it, and the answer is... inconclusive. It's basically at your own risk since the wording of the law leads to ambiguities that have not yet been tested by the legal system.

 

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/140698-fopa-transport-protection-states-origin-destination-unlikely-report.html

[maintenanceguy 510]

You don't need FOPA to transport your guns (unloaded/trunk/etc) from your home to a range in PA (which is where you're headed, right?   ).

 

You're legal under NJ law.

I had the same thought.

[Jon 264]

This topic has been beaten to death on this forum. There is no absolute one way or the other. Bring a gun to PA at your own risk.

[Jon 264]

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/36902-question-regarding-nj-laws-and-out-of-state-carry-permits/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/38085-looking-to-meet-min-requirement-for-nj-transport-to-pa/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/21472-carrying-in-pa-ltcf/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/36017-concealed-carry-report-boasts-that-anyone-in-any-state-can-quickly-and-easily-obtain-their-ccw/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/37944-legal-question-about-transporting-to-home-from-out-of-state/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/40493-nj-to-vt/

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/25674-dont-get-pulled-over-leaving-nj/

[Tack Tickle 0]

What is there debate about?

 

You can legally carry in your home or business. If you have a Utah carry permit, you're moving , going to a range or defense class you are 100% legal during insterstate travel.

 

You SIMPLY have to lbe egal where you start and legal where you end.

[TooBigToFit 2]

What is there debate about?

 

You can legally carry in your home or business. If you have a Utah carry permit, you're moving , going to a range or defense class you are 100% legal during insterstate travel.

 

You SIMPLY have to lbe egal where you start and legal where you end.

Because your assessment that it's simple is based on a generalization of FOPA as being "legal where you start and end," whereas the actual FOPA wording has ambiguities that may not provide protection. It's not conclusive, but generally, it;s something you want to err on the side of caution on. Let me take a few excerpts from the PAFOA thread I listed above...

 

 

 

In considering §926A’s invokability two camps arose. The distinction between those camps is fairly clear, namely, their respective definition of the ‘place’ where the possession/carry legality is evaluated to determine compliance with the prerequisite "from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm". 

One camp concluded that, since they can legally possess and carry about their residence [origin] under NJ statutes (NJS 2C:39-6e) and further since they have a reciprocated license to legally possess/carry in Pa [destination] , they meet the prerequisite based on the perceived plain wording of the statute alone. The other camp (to which I subscribe), having examined some recent Federal court decisions as well as other historical evidence, concluded that ‘place’ refers to the terminus states as a whole; and furthermore that §926A protection applies only to intervening states, i.e. states that are passed through and to the exclusion of the states of origin and destination - if NJ residents can’t legally possess during their travels within NJ then their trip does not qualify for FOPA protection.

 

 

The Congressional Research Service (CRS) works exclusively for the United States Congress, providing policy and legal analysis to committees and Members of both the House and Senate, regardless of party affiliation. As a legislative branch agency within the Library of Congress, CRS has been a valued and respected resource on Capitol Hill for nearly a century.

 

This memorandum is in response to your request for an analysis of 18 U.S.C. $ 926A, which governs the interstate transportation of firearms. The legislative history, which provides some guidance on how $926A could be interpreted, indicates that: ( 1 ) preemption of state or local firearms transportation laws occurs after leaving one's state of residence and before entering the destination state; (2) an individual must be able to legally possess and transport a firearm under both state and local laws; (3) it is unclear how or if the safe harbor created by $926A includes transportation o firearm accessories which are illegal in one state but not another.

 

Representative McCollum stated that the provision applies 'only after individuals leave the boundaries of their State or local jurisdiction,' 132 Cong. Rec.15228( 1986)( statement of Representative McCollum).

Finally, the conclusion...

 

 

So what does this all boil down to? Does §926A afford Federal preemption protection while one is in the ‘end’ states (i.e. the state of origin or destination)? 

 

IMO, after considering all the foregoing as well as court dicta and Congressional Record information provided below, it would be highly imprudent for anyone to rely on §926A protection in the states of origin and destination as the probability of successfully prevailing with an §926A defense is highly unlikely. 

 

The fact of the matter is that there is no direct on-point case law. Should you be charged with a firearm transport crime by your state of origin or destination and §926A is your only defense, a trail court has pretty much unfettered ability to rule with any interpretation they may wish to adopt and defend. State courts may or may not apply §926A to their home statutes. If your defense fails then the "most directly available remedial mechanisms for those who are convicted in violation of this statute under the color of state law are direct appeals challenging the criminal conviction in question, and habeas corpus proceedings in both the state and federal courts" Torraco v. Port Auth. of N.Y. & N.J., 615 F.3d 129, 136 (2d Cir. 2010). 

 

If my posts do nothing more then give a reader, contemplating the trips under discussion, to give pause and make an informed decision before acting, then I feel that I have a "mission accomplished". When considering any action each of us utilize a personal risk acceptability standard or "comfort zone"; some are willing to push the envelope - others prefer to stay inside the envelope. I hope that the foregoing information is of some value and will be taken under advisement into each individual's risk assessment. Nonetheless, in the final analysis, it is the actor who rightfully or wrongfully makes the final decision and it is he/she that is exposed to any untoward consequences arising from those decisions - proceed as you see fit.

 

DISCLAIMER (again) – nothing contained herein should be construed as legal advice by either the source contributors or myself. The information is presented only for purposes of facilitating an individual’s assessing the probability of a favorable court interpretation of §926A in their particular circumstances.

 

Basically, it's up to you whether you want to risk it. There's no telling which way it will go if you happen to get into some trouble, but there is some evidence to show that it might (not definitely) not be too good for you.

[SJG 253]

This is a non issue since there are no intervening States you will be passing through, so long as your mode of transport in NJ complies with NJ law.

[Tack Tickle 0]

DISCLAIMER (again) – nothing contained herein should be construed as legal advice by either the source contributors or myself. The information is presented only for purposes of facilitating an individual’s assessing the probability of a favorable court interpretation of §926A in their particular circumstances.

 

Did you happen to read this quote at the bottom of someone elses opinion you shared?

 

Based on a generalization? Haha. How about based on what the law actually is. It is written in Englishn there isn't any secret text. Legal where you start legal where you end up. That's why they created the act in the first place. To protect people's interstate travel from where they start legally to where they end legally. They didn't do it to trick people into getting arrested.

 

Don't come on this forum and try to confuse people.

 

Because your assessment that it's simple is based on a generalization of FOPA as being "legal where you start and end," whereas the actual FOPA wording has ambiguities that may not provide protection. It's not conclusive, but generally, it;s something you want to err on the side of caution on. Let me take a few excerpts from the PAFOA thread I listed above...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, the conclusion...

 

 

 

 

Basically, it's up to you whether you want to risk it. There's no telling which way it will go if you happen to get into some trouble, but there is some evidence to show that it might (not definitely) not be too good for you.

[vladtepes 1,060]

NJ is not going to stop you from taking your property out of state.... It is really that simple...if the gun is NJ legal.. and you are bringing it somewhere that it is legal..  and you are transporting it unloaded and inaccessible.. no one will ever care.. 

[Underdog 1,593]

You CAN legally carry a firearm in NJ.  You just have to get permission.  And, you CAN legally carry your firearm at your home.

[PK90 3,573]

FOPA covers the OP's question.

 

Oh, and in before "mf".

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[fishnut 2,358]

Drive the speed limit and don't do anything else to get pulled over and keep the gun case out of sight until you get across the border. And if you do get pulled over don't say anything about a gun. Right or wrong this is what I do and I have never had a problem.

[Parker 213]

Some 46,000 non-resident hunters from bordering states traipsed into Pennsylvania last year over a short time-span just to hunt; carting rifles, shotguns and handguns with them. Some for day trips, some for extended stays in deer camps throughout the state. This includes residents from MD, NY, OH and NJ. I doubt any of them had a concern over transport and FOPA covers this.

[Spartiati 63]

I'm doing some traveling this summer and plan to utilize my brandy new UT CCW permit as soon as I cross into America.  I've been carefully researching ccw laws and federal transport laws just to be sure I'm not going to get myself into any trouble.  Growing up in the  PRNJ really makes a person paranoid. 

 

I've been looking into FOPA - Firearms Owners Protection Act.  FOPA says in part :

 

 

 

If "place" means the specific place I leave from - my house - I'm okay because I can lawfully possess and carry in my house.  Unfortunately, I've found legal opinions that "place" means state.  I can't lawfully possess and carry in my state and if "place" really means "state", It would seem that NJ residents are not protected by FOPA at all.

Have flown out of Newark mulitple times with a handgun Which has to be declared and havent been arrested yet...

[sure shot 0]

I don't know what everyone is confused/arguing about. I cross over to PA all the time to get to the Easton range and have never had a problem. As long as you load up to be compliant in NJ you will be fine in PA. Don't drive like a jackass and you won't get pulled over and questioned anyway. As soon as you cross over I don't see how you could have a problem strapping one on if you have a permit, just be sure to take if off when going back to NJ. I've even been pulled over in Pa and told them what I had in the back and the cop didn't care at all, I think it is still legal to have a loaded gun in the car without a permit if it isn't attached to you (In PA). I don't think a Jersey cop would care if you have guns in the trunk either assuming they are properly stored, if you are from Jersey I would hope they are NJ compliant weapons so there is no issue, if he asks where you are going just say home.

 

I'd be a lot more worried about bringing guns into NJ than out of it.

[illy 1]

I don't know what everyone is confused/arguing about. I cross over to PA all the time to get to the Easton range and have never had a problem. As long as you load up to be compliant in NJ you will be fine in PA. Don't drive like a jackass and you won't get pulled over and questioned anyway. As soon as you cross over I don't see how you could have a problem strapping one on if you have a permit, just be sure to take if off when going back to NJ. I've even been pulled over in Pa and told them what I had in the back and the cop didn't care at all, I think it is still legal to have a loaded gun in the car without a permit if it isn't attached to you (In PA). I don't think a Jersey cop would care if you have guns in the trunk either assuming they are properly stored, if you are from Jersey I would hope they are NJ compliant weapons so there is no issue, if he asks where you are going just say home.

 

I'd be a lot more worried about bringing guns into NJ than out of it.

           

[ryan_j 0]

Have flown out of Newark mulitple times with a handgun Which has to be declared and havent been arrested yet...

And you're NOT a LEO. Correct?