USPSA @ OBRPC - 10/27/13

[alec.mc 180]

Apparently is a scientific fact: the color orange makes you slow.

 

HA !! 

 

 

[jvheitz 5]

Apparently is a scientific fact: the color orange makes you slow.

We waited on every stage but #1 and #2...just sayin

[raz-0 1,259]

That is what I meant, the percentage.

 

It was my best stage, so wahoo!

 

No, what's on the scores is the percent of the top shooter of the match. For national classification, there is a high hit factor for every classifier for every division. Your national percentage is based off this high hit factor. Once you have one score that has been done nationally, you can calculate the HHF regardless of what that score was. 

 

The new classifiers went out to new clubs that got the printed packet of materials back in May. The website got digital versions between the CJ match and the OB match in October. The 4.11 version of EZWINSCORE that got them went up about the same time, os unless you wanted to do the whole vintage paper process form start to finish (i.e. skip ezwinscore), you couldn't submit them until about 10-14 days ago. Which means that the first results should hit the USPSA web site mid November. 

 

I know multiple clubs have run 13-04, which is what we did, so that should be one of the earlier ones in. BUt the calculators will work round about when you can jsut go look up your percentage on the USPSA site. 

[raz-0 1,259]

"A battle plan is only good until the first shot is fired"

 

 

On the topic of the way the stage builder intended the stage to be shot, why didn't he add "last four targets need to be engaged while standing on the bridge." Or add a fault line. Or block it some other way?

 

I thought great stage design is supposed to give you multiple ways to run every stage. Its not just about everyone shooting it the exact same way, its about getting creative in your shooting plans.

 

Classifiers are rigid. Every other stage should bring out your creative, devious side. Shooting should be a thinking mans game.

 

 

AS the stage designer, I can tell you why. 

 

The rear set of walls were supposed to be flush with the bridge. Since the wobbly bridge was shorter than I remembered, trying to force two positions on there seemed a bit dodgy for the inexperienced, less dexterous, and old dudes who don't move so hot, so I pushed hte walls out allowing them to engage the two targets between the walls from off the bridge. Since it was early, I simply didn't think of adding fault line to the left side, and nobody checking the stage mentioned it. Since it looked wrapped up, we moved on to stages that were causing problems for us that needed obvious fixing or the match was going to be screwed. 

 

I wanted to shoot from a wobbly bridge, and I did. It was annoying that some people gamed it, but in the end I don't really care. I screwed up, but I dragged it out there so I could have fun and that was my primary motivation. 

 

I will however comment on what pissed a number of people off greatly that involves all the stuff above. 

 

We have sort of tolerated people walking through the courses of fire if they are done and we haven't gotten the match going yet. What we have never tolerated well is people interfering with construction of the match. On Sunday, at least three groups of people were walking through pits 1-3 while we were still working them, and delaying and already delayed match even further. To top it off all three groups took their time to clear the stages, and two of them ignored the MD's initial instruction to leave the stage. One even then preceded to repeat this behavior on the adjacent stage. 

 

This is 100% against the rules per 8.7.3 not to mention generally dickish to the people who put in the work so you have a match to shoot, AND further delayed the match for everyone who was waiting patiently for the match to actually start and squads to be called. By the rules, there's only really one penalty we can actually assess, and that is 10.6.2, which is a match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct for disregarding MD or RM instructions. 

 

How does the wobbly bridge thing fit into it? Well, if you know the rules well enough to game a stage, you know the rules well enough to ask if something odd was intentional or not. Like say dragging a 100lb prop out that serves no purpose if you can just avoid it.  Extra sets of eyes are largely why that behavior has been tolerated. 

 

We've cracked down on walking the stages before. Expect that to make a comeback, especially in light of the DST change and really short match days. Given the attitude of the folks aggravating the issue this weekend, do not be surprised if the result of ignoring it is something other than simply getting a talking to about being a jerk. 

[millsan1 3]

No, what's on the scores is the percent of the top shooter of the match. For national classification, there is a high hit factor for every classifier for every division. Your national percentage is based off this high hit factor. Once you have one score that has been done nationally, you can calculate the HHF regardless of what that score was. 

 

The new classifiers went out to new clubs that got the printed packet of materials back in May. The website got digital versions between the CJ match and the OB match in October. The 4.11 version of EZWINSCORE that got them went up about the same time, os unless you wanted to do the whole vintage paper process form start to finish (i.e. skip ezwinscore), you couldn't submit them until about 10-14 days ago. Which means that the first results should hit the USPSA web site mid November. 

 

I know multiple clubs have run 13-04, which is what we did, so that should be one of the earlier ones in. BUt the calculators will work round about when you can jsut go look up your percentage on the USPSA site. 

 

Yeah, I got that.  It was still my best stage!  Normally I mess up the qualifiers.  I was just hoping there was an online tool to look up how I did.  Thanks for the clarification on timing of when they will be available.

[millsan1 3]

My take re: the pumpkin stage.

 

I LOVED it.  Nice variation and interesting.

 

There was some discussion re: if you could put multiple mags in one pumpkin, and the smart guys figured you could run the stage in a loop and did much better than I.

 

I am ASSUMING that the intent was to have us grab 1 mag from each pumpkin and for the stage to be run in sequence.  IF that was the case, a couple fault lines and more clarity in the stage description could have guided more shooters that way.  If not, then I just made poor decisions on how to run the stage.  The discussion came up re: multiple mags in a pumpkin because a revolver shooter could not grab 1 moon clip from each pumpkin and do the stage.

 

One way or the other, I really liked that one.  Definitely fun and in the spirit of the holiday!

[jvheitz 5]

My take re: the pumpkin stage.

 

I LOVED it.  Nice variation and interesting.

 

There was some discussion re: if you could put multiple mags in one pumpkin, and the smart guys figured you could run the stage in a loop and did much better than I.

 

I am ASSUMING that the intent was to have us grab 1 mag from each pumpkin and for the stage to be run in sequence.  IF that was the case, a couple fault lines and more clarity in the stage description could have guided more shooters that way.  If not, then I just made poor decisions on how to run the stage.  The discussion came up re: multiple mags in a pumpkin because a revolver shooter could not grab 1 moon clip from each pumpkin and do the stage.

 

One way or the other, I really liked that one.  Definitely fun and in the spirit of the holiday!

 

Glad you loved it.  Stage was designed to be shot multiple ways effectively, we didnt care if you put all mags in 1 pumpkin, or spread them out.  I chose to spread them out, and shot the stage better than I expected.  Figured it would be tough for revo guys with the 8 shot array to spread them out, but it was possible.

[tony357 386]

My take re: the pumpkin stage.

 

I LOVED it.  Nice variation and interesting.

 

There was some discussion re: if you could put multiple mags in one pumpkin, and the smart guys figured you could run the stage in a loop and did much better than I.

 

I am ASSUMING that the intent was to have us grab 1 mag from each pumpkin and for the stage to be run in sequence.  IF that was the case, a couple fault lines and more clarity in the stage description could have guided more shooters that way.  If not, then I just made poor decisions on how to run the stage.  The discussion came up re: multiple mags in a pumpkin because a revolver shooter could not grab 1 moon clip from each pumpkin and do the stage.

 

One way or the other, I really liked that one.  Definitely fun and in the spirit of the holiday!

 

I liked the pumpkin stage it was different which put a new twist on it..

[Hops 0]

I will however comment on what pissed a number of people off greatly that involves all the stuff above. 

 

We have sort of tolerated people walking through the courses of fire if they are done and we haven't gotten the match going yet. What we have never tolerated well is people interfering with construction of the match. On Sunday, at least three groups of people were walking through pits 1-3 while we were still working them, and delaying and already delayed match even further. To top it off all three groups took their time to clear the stages, and two of them ignored the MD's initial instruction to leave the stage. One even then preceded to repeat this behavior on the adjacent stage. 

 

I walked through the pits that morning. And I kept asking how could I be of help? I was repeatedly told they did not need any help. I thought that was wierd because I got there early to lend a hand as I always hear comments that help is always needed.

 

I did not hang around after being told no help was needed, I got out of their way.

[2Alpha 6]

 . 

 

This is 100% against the rules per 8.7.3 not to mention generally dickish to the people who put in the work so you have a match to shoot, AND further delayed the match for everyone who was waiting patiently for the match to actually start and squads to be called. By the rules, there's only really one penalty we can actually assess, and that is 10.6.2, which is a match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct for disregarding MD or RM instructions. 

 

How does the wobbly bridge thing fit into it? Well, if you know the rules well enough to game a stage, you know the rules well enough to ask if something odd was intentional or not. Like say dragging a 100lb prop out that serves no purpose if you can just avoid it.  Extra sets of eyes are largely why that behavior has been tolerated. 

 

We've cracked down on walking the stages before. Expect that to make a comeback, especially in light of the DST change and really short match days. Given the attitude of the folks aggravating the issue this weekend, do not be surprised if the result of ignoring it is something other than simply getting a talking to about being a jerk. 

 

 

10.6.2 is for kicking out non competitors.  10.6.1 will help clear out a few competitors during the match too

[raz-0 1,259]

I walked through the pits that morning. And I kept asking how could I be of help? I was repeatedly told they did not need any help. I thought that was wierd because I got there early to lend a hand as I always hear comments that help is always needed.

 

I did not hang around after being told no help was needed, I got out of their way.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people air gunning stages and trying to come up with their stage plans while we are still building them, or trying to fix problems found while checking the stages.

 

 

[Hops 0]

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people air gunning stages and trying to come up with their stage plans while we are still building them, or trying to fix problems found while checking the stages.

Ok. On that note, should we walk through as a fresh set of eyes and mention things that might allow shooters to run the stage differently from the designers intent? I would not want to offend someone, but like I said I am there to help and really appreciate all the work that you guys put into setting everything up.

 

Thank you for all that you guys do.

[alec.mc 180]

Saw this posted on obcats about the october scores:

 

 

 

Everyone, my apologies, apparently the interface between the Nooks and EzWinScore has an issue. Only the classifier score is correct.We are working on the issue and will re-post scores as soon as the issue is corrected.

 

[tony357 386]

Saw this posted on obcats about the october scores:

 

 

 

Everyone, my apologies, apparently the interface between the Nooks and EzWinScore has an issue. Only the classifier score is correct.We are working on the issue and will re-post scores as soon as the issue is corrected.

 

 

How about that, What was our old scores ?

[raz-0 1,259]

Interesting. Glad I haven't updated the nooks not ezwinscore yet.

[Jim Norman 5]

As most of you  know, I don't visit this site very often. Regarding the October OBCATS match scores. There was an issue with the scoring program that doubled the hits on steel when the scores were exported to EzWinScore. The issue has been corrected and the scores are posted.

 

As to the issue Matt was discussing. We welcome help and I have to say I have trouble believing that someone offered to help and was turned down. There are almost always fault lines and target frames to nail down. The problem is a seriiiiiius one, people walking the stages while they are being built. This will no be tolerated any longer. People not helping to build will be asked to either help or return to the parking lot. It is unfair that a group of people are out airgunning stages while we are building them. You are in the way of the builders, that is a problem. It slows the build and makes us run later. It is also unfair to the builders that are out there putting the match together and then having to shoot after working for 2-3 hours with only a couple minutes to walk a stage while you have spent 20-30 mnutes tearing a particular stage apart.

 

I am asking that you do not test us on this issue. We welcome your help if you want to offer it. We might have you look at target angles ro we might hand you a hammer or a stapler. More help is always welcome.

[Hops 0]

We welcome help and I have to say I have trouble believing that someone offered to help and was turned down.

Dont have trouble believing it. It happened to me on more than one stage that day. Maybe I asked the wrong people? Next time I will find and ask you. I am always more than willing to lend a hand.

[alec.mc 180]

Dont have trouble believing it. It happened to me on more than one stage that day. Maybe I asked the wrong people? Next time I will find and ask you. I am always more than willing to lend a hand.

 

Not pointing fingers, you typically get a " no thanks " when approaching for help when the stage is more or less done, and the stage designer is just tweeking targets , or stapling stuff up and doesnt need any muscle.

 

I've said no thanks to people coming up voluteering help while building stages, but like I said - I was pretty much done and just stapling up targets . Figured somebody else could use the muscle for something else.

 

Point being, if people were saying no - you probably showed up too late and the *work* was pretty much done. 

[tony357 386]

Not pointing fingers, you typically get a " no thanks " when approaching for help when the stage is more or less done, and the stage designer is just tweeking targets , or stapling stuff up and doesnt need any muscle.

 

I've said no thanks to people coming up voluteering help while building stages, but like I said - I was pretty much done and just stapling up targets . Figured somebody else could use the muscle for something else.

 

Point being, if people were saying no - you probably showed up too late and the *work* was pretty much done. 

had That today..

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I will admit that I rarely get to these matches early enough to help setup, sometimes, but not often. I always stay to break down though, always. Knockdown steel is one of the biggest pain in the backs to setup/breakdown, but we never seem to have a problem with help. USPSA and IDPA (OBRAMS also) can sometimes use the extra help with the walls. We really need to get the same type of screws used on ALL this tuff so we aren't looking for torx and Philips bits all the time. I think Leo was going to do something to help that situation.

 

We certainly have a LOT of shooter and scooters, both at OB and CJ. We also know who will show-up early to setup and those that stay late to break down. Thanks to those that help with the matches, including the stage designers, RO's, and League Chairs. These events do not run themselves.

[Vlad G 345]

The screw part is easy. If you ever see a philips screw just chuck in the garbage. Sooner or later all there will be left is torx. They really are better and increasingly the only option we can buy. If anyone is still using philips on purpose they need to change, pronto.

[Hops 0]

Not pointing fingers, you typically get a " no thanks " when approaching for help when the stage is more or less done, and the stage designer is just tweeking targets , or stapling stuff up and doesnt need any muscle.

 

I've said no thanks to people coming up voluteering help while building stages, but like I said - I was pretty much done and just stapling up targets . Figured somebody else could use the muscle for something else.

 

Point being, if people were saying no - you probably showed up too late and the *work* was pretty much done.

 

So a couple of hours before the match starts is not early enough? Haha.

 

I will find you at the next old bridge match, introduce my self, and maybe you can find somewhere I can be of help.

 

I truly appreciate all the work everyone does. I just like to pitch in and help too. Thanks to all of you.

 

Its a great sport, great bunch of guys, I appreciate being a part of it.

[Vlad G 345]

Actually any help is welcomed. Some days we need it a hell of a lot more then other days. This is a particularly sore subject for me because .. Well because I end up having to beg people to help and personally I'm tiered of doing it.

 

This is a volunteer game, without your help matches don't happen. I'm in a particular tough spot because I understand that people have lives, children, family, church, jobs, etc and I don't expect people to put a hobby against all that. On the other hand there a few people who have been running these matches for a very long time and we are getting burned out. Jim and Dave have been running OB for 15 years. I don't know how they manage, because Matt and I have been running CJ for 8 and we are burned out, to the point that shooting matches is rarely fun for us anymore, it has become a job, 12 months a year, year after year.

 

What we really, desperately need is a bunch of new people to step up and get involved in running matches at a deeper level. We appreciate anyone who swings a hammer or staples a target, we really do, but we need a bit more. We need new assistant match directors that one day want to be match directors. We need new blood who is passionate enough about the shooting sports to carry the torch before the rest of us just throw our hands in the air and say screw it all. We'll even provide on the job training .

 

Without that it is going to be harder for us to wake up on Sunday morning and go build a match. This year I had to travel 300 miles so I can shoot ONE match I really enjoyed and even then I was ROing for 3 days but just not having the match on my shoulder was a pleasant change.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Vlad, you sound like my wife. Not the complaining part, well, kinda. Let me explain. She works at Englishtown (the Drag Race Track). Most of the time when she goes there to RACE, after her normal workday is done (she works there full-time in the office Monday - Friday), something will go wrong and they come looking for her. Well, then she doesn't get to race, I get her tech card to use as a rain check. Rarely does she ever get to race her own car. If she wants to actually race and not have any other responsibility she has to travel to one of the other two tracks in this state. Just like you driving out of state to go participate in a match and have no other responsibilities there. I really understand your frustration!

[raz-0 1,259]

Not pointing fingers, you typically get a " no thanks " when approaching for help when the stage is more or less done, and the stage designer is just tweeking targets , or stapling stuff up and doesnt need any muscle.

 

I've said no thanks to people coming up voluteering help while building stages, but like I said - I was pretty much done and just stapling up targets . Figured somebody else could use the muscle for something else.

 

Point being, if people were saying no - you probably showed up too late and the *work* was pretty much done. 

 

 

That's not the only time it happens. I'll sometimes suggest they ask the other pits because last I checked I ahve more help than they did. Doesn't mean I'm always right. I'll also say similar to people when I'm at a point where more hands won't help yet because someone might get help if I pass them along, but if I have them stand around doing nothing, they'll probably wander off and not help. 

 

Contrary to Jim's perception, OB does get saturated with help many months out of the year. Often "lack of help" there means lack of autonomous skilled help, not lack of I'll do whatever you tell me to do type of help.

 

The two big spots that need help are pulling the walls, and staking everything. They are at the very beginning and near the very end, the bits in the middle need 2-3 people total unless you have enough experienced people to manage more hands. 

[Charlie Mike 0]

I see the USPSA ran the classifier calculations again.  How come there are no scores for the Old Bridge matches on 9/22 and 10/27?

 

When will those get sent in to the USPSA site?

 

Shouldn't those classifier stages count?

[Charlie Mike 0]

I see the USPSA ran the classifier calculations again.  How come there are no scores for the Old Bridge matches on 9/22 and 10/27?

 

When will those get sent in to the USPSA site?

 

Shouldn't those classifier stages count?

Anybody?  Any idea?

 

Anyone know if these two match scores from previous months will be uploaded to USPSA before next weeks match at Old Bridge? 

 

And if they are uploaded now, will the scores from 9/22 even get factored in or are they already too old to count towards our classifier percentages?

[2Alpha 6]

They probably were not submitted to USPSA HQ in time to make the recent updates.  Which is a shame because  it would be nice to see what the new classifier HHF was. 

 

The score will still factor in when they are submitted,  highest 6 out of the last 8 that count are what count towards your precentage

[Charlie Mike 0]

They probably were not submitted to USPSA HQ in time to make the recent updates.  Which is a shame because  it would be nice to see what the new classifier HHF was. 

 

The score will still factor in when they are submitted,  highest 6 out of the last 8 that count are what count towards your precentage

So the date you shoot them does not matter?  It factors them in based on the date USPSA enters them?

 

Well hopefully they will get sent in before this weekends match at Old Bridge.  Or does anyone know if they have already been submitted?

[silverc6 0]

Uspsa update the classifiers once a month, it's already done for Nov. Next update is around dec 15