P2P problems with NJ township. Need assistance!

[DTtuner 21]

I'm 6 weeks into the application wait, and my application was rejected due to "unable to reach references."

 

References -

My 2 references are two of my closest friends. No criminal records or issues. 
One is a college student, working towards a medical degree. Very organized and detail-oriented guy.

The other is a master plumber in the Northern NJ area. Quiet, reliable individual.

I've been in touch with my buddies almost daily, and they never , ever received any call, voicemail, or letter from the PD.

 

Story -

After 4 weeks, I began to get nervous because my references hadn't received any letter or phone call.

I called the Detectvie from the ID bureau, during the designated "ID Bureau hours."

Very respectfully, as always, "I told him my references hadn't received anything yet, and was there anything wrong with my application?"

Answer was no, everything is fine.

 

6th week, I called again during the designated hours and asked the same questions. "My references haven't received anything, is there any issue with my application?" 

Again, answer was "no problems," with a straight face.

 

On Saturday... Memorial weekend saturday, this guy sends me a letter saying I have to re-apply because he couldn't get in contact with my references. 

This is a straight-up lie. No ifs, ands, or buts.

My two friends know about the process and how difficult it is. They were waiting and watching for the reference check.

I've confirmed with both of them that no contact was ever attempted.

 

On top of all this, my PD made me take a form to my employer, asking them "is there any reason you know of why this person shouldn't own a firearm?"

Yeah... seriously. I'm not going through that process again. 

 

What are my options?

 

[remixer 1,645]

Tell the detective your references were never contacted and your not going to start the entire process again. you might want the call the NJSP for advice also

[oneshot 45]

Also they cannot legally add any additional forms,questionnaires . Its been ruled on recently ,there is a thread about it somewhere. Find it print it out and show them. Do not fill out any additional forms. Call the state police as said and see if they can help. Generally the PD will resend the reference letters. What town is this? You need to out them.

[T Bill 649]

Make an appointment to see the Chief. Explain your problem.  If not fixed to your satisfaction, see the Mayor.  If nothing there, contact NJSP.  And put NJ2AS in the loop.

[DTtuner 21]

I was already going to try and speak with the Chief. Making an appointment is a great idea.

What exactly should I say to the chief? 

I want to make sure I use the right words, and don't piss him off.

 

What will NJSP do? 

I also called them during this wait, and the lady I spoke with told me they have no input on the application process.

She directed me back to the Detective.

 

 

 

[T Bill 649]

Chief is going to back his defective 100%. So you have to approach it carefully. I cannot script it out for you, but appear friendly, shake hands, etc. and then ask simple DIRECT questions, all the while maintaining a calm demeanor.  Ask why you have to re-apply because your references could not be contacted, yet you spoke to your references and neither were contacted. This could be as simple as misdirected mail, etc. Was procedure followed?  Never infer that the defective screwed up, just that maybe something "got lost", etc!  Consider it as a misunderstanding and what can WE (you and the chief) do to correct it.  Take notes.  This way Chief sees you are making an effort to correct the problem. Good Luck!

[W2MC 1,699]

Tread VERY cautiously on this one. 

 

First, I would NOT "just re-apply" - that will mean you have a denial on your record (your first application), that you will have to explain from now onward.  At the MINIMUM I would appeal it...and you only have a short window to appeal, so dont mess around with it.

 

But even before that, and rather than messing around with us non-legal types, I would find an attorney who knows the firearms laws.  Evan Nappen comes to mind, but he's probably too busy to deal with this sort of case anymore...but I would find out who does, and get him on the case PRONTO.  Search this site....there are several good atty's mentioned here somewhere.

[DTtuner 21]

Chief is going to back his defective 100%. So you have to approach it carefully. I cannot script it out for you, but appear friendly, shake hands, etc. and then ask simple DIRECT questions, all the while maintaining a calm demeanor.  Ask why you have to re-apply because your references could not be contacted, yet you spoke to your references and neither were contacted. This could be as simple as misdirected mail, etc. Was procedure followed?  Never infer that the defective screwed up, just that maybe something "got lost", etc!  Consider it as a misunderstanding and what can WE (you and the chief) do to correct it.  Take notes.  This way Chief sees you are making an effort to correct the problem. Good Luck!

 

Good advice. Thank you.

[DTtuner 21]

Tread VERY cautiously on this one. 

 

First, I would NOT "just re-apply" - that will mean you have a denial on your record (your first application), that you will have to explain from now onward.  At the MINIMUM I would appeal it...and you only have a short window to appeal, so dont mess around with it.

 

But even before that, and rather than messing around with us non-legal types, I would find an attorney who knows the firearms laws.  Evan Nappen comes to mind, but he's probably too busy to deal with this sort of case anymore...but I would find out who does, and get him on the case PRONTO.  Search this site....there are several good atty's mentioned here somewhere.

 

This will be my phase2.

 

I've called my PD and made an appointment to speak with the chief.

Officer who does the appointments told me I should hear back within 48 hours.

 

Also send an email to NJ2AS, explaining the above.

[PK90 3,570]

[DTtuner 21]

Also they cannot legally add any additional forms,questionnaires . Its been ruled on recently ,there is a thread about it somewhere. Find it print it out and show them. 

Link?

[DTtuner 21]

 

Great advice... until the Detective you're dealing with is a prick who likes to play games with people's constitutional rights, and deny you 'cause you called too many times...

[ryan_j 0]

Link?

 

 

It's a court decision. Search for Jeremy Perez in this forum.

[ryan_j 0]

What town is this if you don't mind my asking?

 

I would get in touch with ANJRPC Strikeforce - [email protected]. They are working on something to get towns to comply. 

 

Getting in touch with an attorney would also get help. Evan Nappen's firm specializes in this stuff. He may be busy but he has a team including Lou Nappen, Richard Gilbert and David Huang. He's not cheap but he wins. 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Great advice... until the Detective you're dealing with is a prick who likes to play games with people's constitutional rights, and deny you 'cause you called too many times...

 

That's Official Misconduct and if you have proof that is what happened, you can file a complaint with the County DA - they are obligated to investigate - not something many PD's want to have happen.

[ryan_j 0]

http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/appellate-division-unpublished/2014/a0498-12.html

[mikka1 2]

After reading things like that I start to be a little sorry for badmouthing about my local PD before...

I had an issue earlier this year with one of my references being "lost" (apparently he went to his relatives abroad for a long vacation in between jobs and refrained from answering calls and emails at all) and it was almost a no-brainer to come to my PD and ask them to replace him with another guy.

Yes, it delayed the process for another month or so, but at that point I haven't even thought about "being denied for not being able to reach a reference"...

[PK90 3,570]

Great advice... until the Detective you're dealing with is a prick who likes to play games with people's constitutional rights, and deny you 'cause you called too many times...

 

Then maybe I should have posted this pic >

 

 

J/K

[djg0770 481]

I wonder if this was your first amendment right would you worry about treading lightly?

[Reddog87 0]

Never tread lightly it will get you nowhere.

[djg0770 481]

Never tread lightly it will get you nowhere.

By the same token, don't be an ass. Firm but respectful. And as pk90 said so eloquently with his picture worth a thousand words post, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[quikz 34]

Wow, in almost all other states, what the PD did is outright illegal.

 

How twisted and truly backwards some state(s) can be.

 

Unbelievable.

[ryan_j 0]

I still want to know what town this is?

[Old Dog 19]

I do not recall if you had to list two references in NJ about 10 years ago. I have filled out lots of applications for all sorts of reasons, where I had to list references and only once were they actually contacted and that took almost a year going through what you are now going through. This was for a federal license by Homeland Security for my profession though and nothing to do with guns. I do not recall every having references contacted for a gun permit though. Every five years I am vetted by the TSA and they never contact my references either. Is contacting references mandatory in NJ for a P2P now or is it at the discretion of the local township?

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Is contacting references mandatory in NJ for a P2P now or is it at the discretion of the local township?

 

My understanding is that, ultimately, it's up to the CLEO to "investigate" the app. How that's done Is up to them, I assume within guidelines established by the NJSP. I guess it depends on how strict the CLEO thinks the investigation needs to be.  I believe that for my initial FID & 2P2Ps, the two references I listed were contacted. Since I'm my own employer (and I told my chief that when I submitted the initial paperwork), I was not contacted to "verify employment."  When I filed for 2 additional P2Ps, some 3-4 months later, I don't believe even my two references (same ones) were contacted a 2nd time. 

[djg0770 481]

I do not recall if you had to list two references in NJ about 10 years ago. I have filled out lots of applications for all sorts of reasons, where I had to list references and only once were they actually contacted and that took almost a year going through what you are now going through. This was for a federal license by Homeland Security for my profession though and nothing to do with guns. I do not recall every having references contacted for a gun permit though. Every five years I am vetted by the TSA and they never contact my references either. Is contacting references mandatory in NJ for a P2P now or is it at the discretion of the local township?

 

The references have been on the form since the late 80's - early 90's as I recall.  I will check my files to see if I have the documentation from "back then" or whether that data succumbed to a very infrequent pack rat purge.

[njpilot 671]

My department didn't contact my references for the the first few years, then started a couple of years ago to contact them every time.

[DTtuner 21]

My references were contacted for my FID, and my last P2P application.

Unfortunately, the old Detective retired. Nice guy.

[brucin 923]

My references and employer were contacted for initial FPID and P2P's and six months later for subsequent P2P's .

[Melgamatic 66]

I do not recall if you had to list two references in NJ about 10 years ago. 

 

At least by 1999 you had to list two references.  

 

My PD is very quick (32 days for last 3 permits), but they still send the same guys the same letters, time after time.  One is even a town councilman in the same town, that the cops see a few times a week, as he was the law enforcement liaison for the council, and I live on the same block as the police station.  They still send out the letters, every time...