Smokin .50 1,907 Posted September 25, 2014 It's all over social media. I think it's great news for her, but we still need to fight for our own CCW rights here in NJ! Seems that there are now four classes of Graves Act offenses, with Shaneen's being the MOST likely to deserve PTI! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illy 1 Posted September 25, 2014 Awesome! I'm glad this nightmare is over for her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illy 1 Posted September 25, 2014 FWIW, she's not the first person to get PTI under exactly these circumstances. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as precedent in granting people entry into PTI. The guidelines state that admission "shall be measured according to the applicant's amenability to correction, responsiveness to rehabilitation and the nature of the offense." And case law establishes that: PTI decisions are 'primarily individualistic in nature' and a prosecutor must consider an individual defendant's features that bear on his or her amenability to rehabilitation." Meaning that every decision has to be based on the specifics of the charge AND the applicant. So lots of people we never hear about will keep getting screwed by NJ gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HBecwithFn7 296 Posted September 25, 2014 I still want to know what the terms of her PTI will be (i.e. what she must do to complete it successfully). As stated earlier, I'd go for community service, a mandatory training class on the firearms laws of NJ and other states, and perhaps a fine. But no permanent loss of gun rights or carry privileges. And she should get her gun back (I assume it was taken from her). And, of course, her health care licenses should be resotred so she can return to work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted September 25, 2014 The whole ray rice situation help her out greatly as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illy 1 Posted September 25, 2014 I still want to know what the terms of her PTI will be (i.e. what she must do to complete it successfully). As stated earlier, I'd go for community service, a mandatory training class on the firearms laws of NJ and other states, and perhaps a fine. But no permanent loss of gun rights or carry privileges. And she should get her gun back (I assume it was taken from her).The standard conditions are:Community service Fines/fees ($125) Reporting to your P.O., as directed Remain arrest free during the term of supervision (Now here's the bad stuff) Not allowed to possess any firearms while on PTI supervision AND Forfeit the weapon. That's what's standard. Her attorney can argue against forfeiture, but it's up to the judge to grant that exclusion. As for no weapons during PTI, the only time I've seen that waived is for LE. Also, since she lives in PA, her supervision will be with PA probation and they might not have that rule or they might be more lenient in waiving it. Though she's in Philly, so probably not. tl;dr: Worst case- she loses that particular gun and is disarmed for the next 12 months, but no permanent loss of 2A rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonecoldchavez 92 Posted September 25, 2014 Unfortunately, and hear me out.....I would have liked to have seen this go to trial and have her take this fight to the Supreme Court. That is the only way our NJ unconstitutional gun carry law will be overturned. By settling for PTI this case will never go to trial and never to the Supreme Court. That is why the PO's gave in to PTI. Now the case just goes away.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HBecwithFn7 296 Posted September 25, 2014 The standard conditions are: Community service Fines/fees ($125) Reporting to your P.O., as directed Remain arrest free during the term of supervision (Now here's the bad stuff) Not allowed to possess any firearms while on PTI supervision AND Forfeit the weapon. That's what's standard. Her attorney can argue against forfeiture, but it's up to the judge to grant that exclusion. As for no weapons during PTI, the only time I've seen that waived is for LE. Also, since she lives in PA, her supervision will be with PA probation and they might not have that rule or they might be more lenient in waiving it. Though she's in Philly, so probably not. tl;dr: Worst case- she loses that particular gun and is disarmed for the next 12 months, but no permanent loss of 2A rights. Fair enough. But what about her carry permit? Would that be forfeited permanently? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark_anthony_78 0 Posted September 25, 2014 I would have liked to have seen this go to trial and have her take this fight to the Supreme Court. Same here. Very glad for Shaneen but this feels like a calculated political move to avoid litigation questioning our laws. The AG's clarification also seems to create more protections/leniency for non-residents than residents, and although IANAL, something can't be right about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illy 1 Posted September 25, 2014 Fair enough. But what about her carry permit? Would that be forfeited permanently? No. Similarly, if she was a NJ resident, she could keep get FPID. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted September 25, 2014 Same here. Very glad for Shaneen but this feels like a calculated political move to avoid litigation questioning our laws. The AG's clarification also seems to create more protections/leniency for non-residents than residents, and although IANAL, something can't be right about that. I've been saying that "Shaneen's Law", as proposed, is unconstitutional on its' face, since we're back to Animal Farm with some Pigs being MORE EQUAL! Non-residents would have more leniency in firearms matters than tax-paying New Jerseyans!!!!!!! Maybe we should all go in on a time-share with a PA address??? That's just one way around it.... It won't hold-up though! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted September 25, 2014 Unfortunately, and hear me out.....I would have liked to have seen this go to trial and have her take this fight to the Supreme Court. That is the only way our NJ unconstitutional gun carry law will be overturned. By settling for PTI this case will never go to trial and never to the Supreme Court. That is why the PO's gave in to PTI. Now the case just goes away.... I just posted the same sentiment on the NJ2AS FB Page. I started and ended that I have my fire retardant suit on as I expect to get flamed for it. But this result just sweeps the issue under the rug. We as citizens would have been much better off if she got tried AND convicted. Then and only then would there be enough outrage by the sheeple of NJ to actually get some changes made to our laws. While I am glad for her as a person that she did not have to suffer through this horror any more, the problem still exists and nothing has changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted September 25, 2014 Unfortunately, and hear me out.....I would have liked to have seen this go to trial and have her take this fight to the Supreme Court. That is the only way our NJ unconstitutional gun carry law will be overturned. By settling for PTI this case will never go to trial and never to the Supreme Court. That is why the PO's gave in to PTI. Now the case just goes away.... There is no "supreme courtable" issue here. She broke NJ law which higher courts have allowed to remain in place even in the face of challenges. Remember that guy from Fredon a couple of months ago? The only things this scenario would accomplish is to bankrupt the poor lady, impoverish her children as she languished in jail, and feed the already over-bloated "legal" system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted September 25, 2014 I just posted the same sentiment on the NJ2AS FB Page. I started and ended that I have my fire retardant suit on as I expect to get flamed for it. But this result just sweeps the issue under the rug. We as citizens would have been much better off if she got tried AND convicted. Then and only then would there be enough outrage by the sheeple of NJ to actually get some changes made to our laws. While I am glad for her as a person that she did not have to suffer through this horror any more, the problem still exists and nothing has changed. Sweeping the issue under the rug is the best we can hope for unless and until we vote certain people out of office. The court system has been a waste of time, money, and human capital. In this state almost nobody outside of this group gives a crap about guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HBecwithFn7 296 Posted September 25, 2014 Unfortunately, and hear me out.....I would have liked to have seen this go to trial and have her take this fight to the Supreme Court. That is the only way our NJ unconstitutional gun carry law will be overturned. By settling for PTI this case will never go to trial and never to the Supreme Court. That is why the PO's gave in to PTI. Now the case just goes away.... Same here. Very glad for Shaneen but this feels like a calculated political move to avoid litigation questioning our laws. The AG's clarification also seems to create more protections/leniency for non-residents than residents, and although IANAL, something can't be right about that. I slept on this decision overnight, but I, too, need to put on my Kevlar suit. I feel for all of us and how much we want our laws to change and look for opportunities to make it happen. And I can understand why many see Shaneen's case as one of the best opportunities for this. Unfortunately, this case isn't about us.... it's about a mother and her two children, and what's best for them (which I believe is Evan Nappen's mindset as well). And, as her lawyer, it should be. In all good faith, I don't think it's fair to expect Shaneen to "take one for the team" and "think of the greater good," especially when it puts her at risk for prison time, loss of gun/voting rights, employment opportunities, etc, unless she chooses to do so voluntarily (and I can't imagine she would), or those wanting this to proceed through the courts would be ready to provide for her and her family for the rest of her life (since it would be difficult for her to do so as a convicted felon). If I were her, it would be all about making sure I'm there for my kids, and re-acquiring my ability to make money so I can provide for them. Perhaps, after Shannen completes her PTI and gets all her rights & privileges restored, and things get stable again in her family's life, she might help us by doing speaking engagements on the need to have NJ laws reformed, or the need for national carry reciprocity. But it depends on where she, herself, stands in re: 2A, which I don't even know. I'd not want her out there speaking for us unless she's totally committed. And if anyone wants to go ahead and risk all that she is/was risking voluntarily, then all power to them. Or, we find a different way to bring the matter to the attention of the public. OK, Kevlar suit on! Fire Away! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted September 25, 2014 Sweeping the issue under the rug is the best we can hope for unless and until we vote certain people out of office. The court system has been a waste of time, money, and human capital. In this state almost nobody outside of this group gives a crap about guns. Not necessarily! If the Gun Community and the Tea Party that helped her can convince her to be our newest 2A Poster Child, we can go a LONG way with a professional approach to a PR campaign. She should write a book and go onto the talk show circuit. Let MILLIONS see her on The View, Ellen and lots of other shows that Mama Bears watch! It's the Mama Bears who are the Swing Voters. As more and more of them are buying firearms to protect their families, they have a keen interest in how mothers get treated by the state. Her story will only be "swept under the rug" if SHE wants it that way! She's practically a household name. Some MSM outlets already have run stories about her. We'll see what she does with her new found freedom.......LET FREEDOM RING!!!!!!!!!! Dave Former member of the News Media Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
illy 1 Posted September 25, 2014 Have you all read the AG's directive on this? http://www.njdcj.org/agguide/directives/Graves-Act-clarification-2014.pdf In short, county prosecutors should offer PTI to otherwise legal out of staters who come into NJ with a gun. If PTI is inapplicable, then their first plea offer should be probation, no jail time. ETA: This means the AG is taking the position that the Graves Act is about criminals, not law abiding people who name mistakes. While this doesn't directly do anything for us, it will keep a lot of innocent gun owners out of prison (a 2A win) and will give NJ gun owners who get caught up on a stupid technicality a stronger defense. It's good news for the Second Amendment all around Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dutchman 1 Posted September 25, 2014 NJ Politics as usual in my view. Gun law violations like this don't play well in free amerika and she is black. 1. The NJ State Atty Gen reports to Christie. 2. All County prosecutors report to the NJ State Atty Gen. 3. Christie doesn't want the NRA or opponents hanging this around his neck for his 2016 run for pres. 4. QED Someone in AC got a phone call. 5. PTI The only thing CC gives a shit about is furthering his own political ambitions. Although based on what I know I think PTI is the right call and we shouldn't punish others for the legislation and actions of the morons that get elected here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 25, 2014 I slept on this decision overnight, but I, too, need to put on my Kevlar suit. I feel for all of us and how much we want our laws to change and look for opportunities to make it happen. And I can understand why many see Shaneen's case as one of the best opportunities for this. Unfortunately, this case isn't about us.... it's about a mother and her two children, and what's best for them (which I believe is Evan Nappen's mindset as well). And, as her lawyer, it should be. In all good faith, I don't think it's fair to expect Shaneen to "take one for the team" and "think of the greater good," especially when it puts her at risk for prison time, loss of gun/voting rights, employment opportunities, etc, unless she chooses to do so voluntarily (and I can't imagine she would), or those wanting this to proceed through the courts would be ready to provide for her and her family for the rest of her life (since it would be difficulty for her to do so as a convicted felon). If I were her, it would be all about making sure I'm there for my kids, and re-acquiring my ability to make money so I can provide for them. Perhaps, after Shannen completes her PTI and gets all her rights & privileges restored, and things get stable again in her family's life, she might help us by doing speaking engagements on the need to have NJ laws reformed, or the need for national carry reciprocity. But it depends on where she, herself, stands in re: 2A, which I don't even know. I'd not want her out there speaking for us unless she's totally committed. And if anyone wants to go ahead and risk all that she is/was risking voluntarily, then all power to them. Or, we find a different way to bring the matter to the attention of the public. OK, Kevlar suit on! Fire Away! +1K... Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted September 25, 2014 Not necessarily! If the Gun Community and the Tea Party that helped her can convince her to be our newest 2A Poster Child, we can go a LONG way with a professional approach to a PR campaign. She should write a book and go onto the talk show circuit. Let MILLIONS see her on The View, Ellen and lots of other shows that Mama Bears watch! It's the Mama Bears who are the Swing Voters. As more and more of them are buying firearms to protect their families, they have a keen interest in how mothers get treated by the state. Her story will only be "swept under the rug" if SHE wants it that way! She's practically a household name. Some MSM outlets already have run stories about her. We'll see what she does with her new found freedom.......LET FREEDOM RING!!!!!!!!!! Dave Former member of the News Media I agree on a theoretical level that good publicity would help. I'm sure there are pockets of sympathy among the Pennsylvania media, but where do you go for it in this state? Star Ledger? MSNBC? Ellen? She might also be under certain restrictions regarding this case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted September 25, 2014 Not necessarily! If the Gun Community and the Tea Party that helped her can convince her to be our newest 2A Poster Child, we can go a LONG way with a professional approach to a PR campaign. She should write a book and go onto the talk show circuit. Let MILLIONS see her on The View, Ellen and lots of other shows that Mama Bears watch! It's the Mama Bears who are the Swing Voters. As more and more of them are buying firearms to protect their families, they have a keen interest in how mothers get treated by the state. Her story will only be "swept under the rug" if SHE wants it that way! She's practically a household name. Some MSM outlets already have run stories about her. We'll see what she does with her new found freedom.......LET FREEDOM RING!!!!!!!!!! Dave Former member of the News Media Dave these are all good ideas, I hope they play out. Otherwise this issue has just been swept under the rug, and the next time it happens the poor sucker will be told you should have known based on last time so go enjoy your jail sentence in New Jermany. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djg0770 481 Posted September 25, 2014 I've been saying that "Shaneen's Law", as proposed, is unconstitutional on its' face, since we're back to Animal Farm with some Pigs being MORE EQUAL! Let them put it in place first. THEN we argue that point Dave and encourage them to go further and allow the rest of us to be equal to those they just made "more equal". We have to start thinking, acting, and moving more like those that are effective at hamstringing us. We have to go for the incremental win. To borrow a mediocre football analogy, we're in a run game here, not a passing game. Every yard moving in the direction we need to go is a gain regardless of how much of a gain it may appear to be... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayWilling 33 Posted September 25, 2014 My own theory is that the fat ass democrats in Trenton got to the prosecutor. There was just too much backlash and they don't want to call attention to the fact that they are running roughshod over our constitutionally guaranteed rights. Also, the new DC CCW laws (based on NJ laws) may get shot down by the court. If so, NJ will be under scrutiny, and so they wanted all the spotlights coming from Shaneen to just go away. Keep their heads down and keep screwing the peons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted September 25, 2014 Let them put it in place first. THEN we argue that point Dave and encourage them to go further and allow the rest of us to be equal to those they just made "more equal". We have to start thinking, acting, and moving more like those that are effective at hamstringing us. We have to go for the incremental win. To borrow a mediocre football analogy, we're in a run game here, not a passing game. Every yard moving in the direction we need to go is a gain regardless of how much of a gain it may appear to be... Agreed. After-all, we don't want Crazys being interviewed standing in line for gun permits! We need to "chip-away" at the strangle-hold one logical step at a time, until the only logical thing to do is to actually GRANT CCW's to us mere Commoners! Letting some be "MORE EQUAL" for a brief period (and having them NOT shoot-up the place!) will give us even more ammo to demand our rights back! A rock and a hard place....either we eventually all be allowed to carry or we all stand in line with a Class Action Suit that will cost the State MILLIONS just to fight it......... Either way, it will be something to be a part of! LET FREEDOM RING!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brucin 923 Posted September 26, 2014 " the problem still exists and nothing has changed." Should be the state motto. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted September 26, 2014 " the problem still exists and nothing has changed." Should be the state motto. "New Jersey - Are you sure you want to do this?" That should be the state motto I want to thank all of the people in NJ that got the word out and fought for this poor lady. You brought a rain of brimstone down upon you from all of America. I think that should be our model for reforming NJ gun laws. Outside pressure. Thank you once again for your success and for saving a citizen of my Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and of our United States of America. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SW9racer 262 Posted September 26, 2014 I am very happy for her, and I hope she can be somehow reimbursed for the grief, aggravation, and job loss. This will be swept and forgotten with no change for us. Until the next fool crosses into Mexico, I mean New Jersey with a legal gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midwest 28 Posted September 26, 2014 "New Jersey - Are you sure you want to do this?" That should be the state motto How about "NJ and You..Purrrrrfect Together"....Oh wait that's been done How about this for the state motto ? "Do you have a permit for that?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djg0770 481 Posted September 26, 2014 State Motto: NJ - Where fun dies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malsua 1,422 Posted September 26, 2014 State Motto: Everything not permitted is forbidden. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites