Will we see a rise in ND's ?

[redwings9 5]

Fox thanks so much for the assistance, I did not realize I needed to provide a manual of arms prior to regaling stories about negligent discharges. As a member of the community I appreciate your input,insight as they relate to the subjects at hand. I will try to do much better in the future.

[PD2K 115]

I don't think it matters striker vs hammer...neglect people will always exist.

[302w 83]

Obligatory-

 

Guy seems like a fool, but good for him to admit it is his fault.

[blksheep 466]

The ole Tex Grabner....

[Shane45 807]

I don't think it matters striker vs hammer...neglect people will always exist.

I will not carry a striker fired pistol in my AIWB holster. I chose a P2000 over a VP9. Why? Because I can put my thumb over the hammer while I re-holster. If some obstruction in the trigger guard should occur, I will know and can physically prevent it from firing. There is nothing I can do to insure a VP9 or PPQ would not fire on re-holster. So while I agree with your assertion that it largely doesn't matter for the negligent, those of us that try not to be by building in habits to protect against human error or unlucky circumstance, it indeed can matter.

[Vlad G 345]

I accept this might be me, but I can't think of any reason why I might want to do a speed re-holster where I can't take the time to quickly visually check that my holster if free of obstructions before I holster a gun. Heck, you can even do a blind physical check by pressing your other hand against your side above the holster. 

 

You could make the same argument about shrouded revolvers, glocks, etc. Sure, what you holster is a personal choice and should be comforting but personally I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Heck, I place this in the same category with people who say they won't use a double action gun because someone could block their gun from firing by placing their thumb between hammer and slide

[Shane45 807]

If you are referring to the premise of the thread, no mountains out of mole hills here. This is just thread drift and discussion. My original post centers more on the notion of a light trigger no external safety style pistol is becoming very popular. Think of it more this way, if 20,000 new shooters went out and bought revolvers, and another 20,000 new shooters went out and bought VP9's, which group do you think will have a higher ND count in 5 years time?

 

If you are referring to my comments about striker vs hammer in an AIWB, I don't see where I ever mentioned, brought up or advocated speed holtering so Im not sure where that idea even came from. But I can see the situation where I need to holster and cant take my eyes off what Im looking at. Thumb over hammer is an easy insurance policy. Vlad, consider for a second if you had a ND in a AIWB. Where is it pointed? Right at your manhood and femoral artery! An accident with this holster has a major likelihood of being fatal. Its not like carrying at 4:00 and skinning yer ass with a bullet or 3:00 skinning your outer thigh as seen with the texas tactical pirouette king.

[checko 180]

You should only be reholstering when the area is free of threats. If it is free why not take your time, look, and do it right (ie not putting a round in your thigh or dong)

[Vlad G 345]

Or if AIWB and the proximally collocated junk are the main concern, then perhaps pick a different location for your holster?

[Shane45 807]

You should only be reholstering when the area is free of threats. If it is free why not take your time, look, and do it right (ie not putting a round in your thigh or dong)

So there is no scenario in your mind where reholstering without looking could happen? How about retreating to a back bedroom with baby in one arm, needing to keep visual on the hallway for threat and needing to open a door? But I digress, the point is being missed. Even if I look, it doesn't mean I see. Could be poor lighting conditions or whatever. The fact is there is no way to stop a striker fired pistol with a light trigger from firing should an accidental trigger press from a foreign object occur. I can mitigate that risk with a hammer fired pistol or one with an external safety. If I chose to carry AIWB, I chose a pistol with either mitigating feature. Its odd to me that picking equipment to help mitigate risk is an actual contention. Checking for obstruction when you can, going slow, being carefull are all self evident. But planning around worst case scenarios with a simple way to help mitigate risk seems prudent to me. If you all are so sure of your self in every possible scenario, I tip my hat to you. But after my post I took a look around to find I am not alone in my concern. Well pedigreed trainers seems to share the same concerns....

[Shane45 807]

Or if AIWB and the proximally collocated junk are the main concern, then perhaps pick a different location for your holster?

The concern is not the proximity if it is a pistol I can mitigate risk with.

[Vlad G 345]

Sorry, I'm not buying it. 

 

With all do respect, you are making up scenarios to validate your bias.   No matter what platform you pick, I can come up with a scenario that can be a problem. There is no perfect handgun, there is no perfect situation, there is no perfect way to carry a weapon. 

 

You are saying you can mitigate the risk with a particular handgun design, I say you can mitigate it by moving the holster. You are concerned that you can't keep your thumb on the hammer, and I'll advise you buy a striker fire gun with a manual safety or a grip safety. 

 

Ultimately everyone will have different notions about what makes a good or safe handgun or holster, that's a beautiful thing. Personally I wouldn't carry any weapon pointing at my gentleman's sausage so to me your choice of carry position is suspect to begin with and actually it has nothing to do with my wedding tackle but I love my femoral arteries even more. If you think thats the best place to carry a gun, and want to chose handguns based exclusively on that then we discover that there are a lot of handguns out there to chose from. However, to my mind the primary function of a handguns is to shoot fast and accurate and only the second is to not shoot off my own dangling bits, so I'll chose the firearm first, and then chose a method of carry that makes me happy based on handgun features and plumbing geography. 

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, keep in mind you are getting wrapped around what I choose and why. If that is food for thought for others, that great, they can choose to take it as good input or ignore it entirely. But to focus on your debate on my logic for a second, its not about the odd parameters. Its a simple matrix of yes and no. Do I want to carry AIWB for a given scenario, yes, will it be a striker fired with no external safeties, no. Would I LOVE a VP9 with a 1911 style thumb safety, YOU BET!!!! For ME that would be an excellent pistol meeting a ton of checkboxes in what I want in that type of pistol. It is not about bias. We all have different levels of comfort. If your fine with a 5lb trigger, no external safety, and a AIWB holster, have at it. Several I know and respect indeed are. Conversely I find those that carry empty chamber to be at the other end of the spectrum and this is not something I would do. I consider myself somewhere in the middle. On the topic of pistol selection, I have not yet discovered the striker fired pistol with an external safety that works for me. But based on your statements, you would never carry AIWB. So clearly no mitigation at all would be enough to make you comfortable. So my logic about mitigating risk will be lost on you. But does it mean that a method to help reduce risk for that method of carry has no merit?

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

Back to the original question...No, I dont think we will see an increase in the number of ND b/c of the increased popularity of striker fired pistols.

[Vlad G 345]

But does it mean that a method to help reduce risk for that method of carry has no merit?

 

It has no merit, to me.  I've also chosen a mitigation solution, I wouldn't do that with any gun. Problem mitigated, risk of shooting off my own willy reduced dramatically

 

I understand what you are saying, we are both concerned with the same problem, we chose different paths to solve it.  I'll elaborate on my last point in my previous point though.  Do you really pick a handgun based on the location your are going to carry it, or do you pick it for its ability to perform its primary function ie: shooting stuff (presumably defensively) ? 

 

For me, I would pick a handgun for everything it does when NOT holstered, and then figure out a way to carry it that I feel is safe. For me, doing the other way is like picking a car for how I plan to park it, and not for how I plan to drive it.

 

This extends to the original post as well, because I think there is tremendous merit to "light" triggered striker fired guns, as far as I'm concerned DA/SA hammer fired guns were a pointless detour in the name of safety. Look at it this way, we still have lots of SA 1911's being built and sold pretty much making the point that one can be used just fine without a DA trigger, and lets face it not a lot of people are introducing that nowadays. If your argument was that a lot of people can't be trusted with a lighter trigger (and I don't mean idiotic 1lb 1911 game gun triggers), I'd argue they can't be trusted with ANY trigger because they won't be keeping their booger picker off it anyway and that will result in a loud boom no matter what trigger they are using. 

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, to answer your question on pistol selection, maybe?!?!

 

I don't want to shoot myself anywhere. And so when I take a step back from the conversation on that notion, you are correct. I generally do not select the pistol purchase based on appendix carry. I already made the decision to mitigate risk on any method of carry by picking hammer fired pistols. It so happens that Im comfortable with appendix carry because of the previous decision. However, my recent purchase came down to an HK P2000LEM or a VP9. Because I do intend on appendix carry the P2000 won the nod. If I had bought the VP9, I indeed would not carry that particular pistol AIWB. So the location of carry played a factor in the decision. BUT other factors were key in the decision process as well.

 

But back to my original post, I don't think its a lot of people, its a lot of "new" people that concerns me. I mean practically everyone on this forum has more than a casual interest in shooting. Unfortunately I think we are in the minority. So I visualize a sea of new shooters picking things like the VP9 as their first pistol. That is my concern.

[Vlad G 345]

But back to my original post, I don't think its a lot of people, its a lot of "new" people that concerns me. I mean practically everyone on this forum has more than a casual interest in shooting. Unfortunately I think we are in the minority. So I visualize a sea of new shooters picking things like the VP9 as their first pistol. That is my concern.

 

Well I suspect that if that really becomes an issue H&K will get sued a lot, and there will be a recall. 

[Shane45 807]

So should I have titled the thread "Be carful before we see the rise of the NY trigger"?

[Vlad G 345]

So should I have titled the thread "Be carful before we see the rise of the NY trigger"?

 

Perhaps but this is H&K, they'll issue everyone a six finger, german crafted to exact specifications, because no civilian fingers are good enough for their guns. The SEALs already have it, so they would be chill and can still wear all the same gloves.

[fumanchu182 23]

Vlad, to answer your question on pistol selection, maybe?!?!

 

I don't want to shoot myself anywhere. And so when I take a step back from the conversation on that notion, you are correct. I generally do not select the pistol purchase based on appendix carry. I already made the decision to mitigate risk on any method of carry by picking hammer fired pistols. It so happens that Im comfortable with appendix carry because of the previous decision. However, my recent purchase came down to an HK P2000LEM or a VP9. Because I do intend on appendix carry the P2000 won the nod. If I had bought the VP9, I indeed would not carry that particular pistol AIWB. So the location of carry played a factor in the decision. BUT other factors were key in the decision process as well.

 

But back to my original post, I don't think its a lot of people, its a lot of "new" people that concerns me. I mean practically everyone on this forum has more than a casual interest in shooting. Unfortunately I think we are in the minority. So I visualize a sea of new shooters picking things like the VP9 as their first pistol. That is my concern.

 

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. 

This is the primary rule of gun safety. Never pointing a gun at yourself or others ensures that it will not cause harm if it goes off. When outdoors, point the gun toward the ground or towards the target. If you are indoors, be mindful that a bullet can penetrate ceilings, floors, walls, windows, and doors. Use common sense to dictate the safest direction.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. 

When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Do not touch the trigger until you are ready to fire.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use. 

When you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device and remove the magazine before opening the action and checking the chamber(s). If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

- See more at: http://go.nra.org/newswire/nras-three-rules-of-safe-gun-handling.aspx#sthash.MsPLusQJ.dpuf

[Shane45 807]

Really, fumanchu182? Really? Do you also do Captain obvious commercials for Hotels.com in your spare time?

[Old School 611]

Vlad - Shane ...

 

I think you're both on the money.

 

Personal training (and I'm not saying tactical) and firearm familiarity are paramount. Oh forgot good handling skills.

 

In the day when I was high risk I carried a HP cocked safety off and thumb break under hammer.  That's me and not for everybody.

 

Now I know I'm old and slow and carry a Kahr or Glock.

 

CCW holders need to really be familiar with their weapons and not all are.

 

Just talked to someone today that carries a Taurus 709 Slim (I think)  Jep, he had it to the range once.  NOT acceptable!

[High Exposure 5,667]

Shane, I get what you are saying about feeling the hammer under your thumb. My first issues gun was a S&W 4013TSW and first personal gun was an HKP2000 LEM and we were taught to put our thumb on the hammer - it would remind us to decock if we forgot and tell us by feel if something was hitting the trigger as we holstered. It's a useful TTP if you carry a DA gun but it's not a must have feature for a carry gun for me. I am very comfortable with carrying my Glocks.

 

I'm not a fan of AIWB. Mostly because I am short and short waisted making it an uncomfortable way to carry anything with a barrel longer than 3" when sitting. I also do not like the idea of having a loaded gun pointed at my thigh or happy place.

 

I am a big proponent of looking at your holster when it's time to put the gun away. If you can't take your eyes off the threat, you shouldn't be holstered. Also, it takes less time and is safer to look than to try and do it by "feel", especially CCW type holsters.

 

And Fu, those rules (especially 1 & 3) are useless if you carry a gun for self defense. They may be good on the square range but that's about it.

[bhunted 887]

Shane, not to offset the thread, but why not a P30? It's the closest thing you described that is very similar to a VP9.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shane45 807]

Roger that HE. I think I gravitate to AIWB because I already have so much hardware in my back Not putting pressure on all the Ti rods is a good thing for me.

 

bhunted, good question! I have run through the gambit of 3 P30's. 1st one was DA/SA decock no safety. Second go was DA/SA with safety in an attempt to go cocked and locked but couldn't really do it well with how high the safety was. Round 3. LEM. Ahhhh digging it! But here was what I found. I found that although the molded ergonomic grip felt great, it presented me issues on the draw for anything less than a perfect initial master grip. Add the grippy texture of the P30 to the molded ergonomics and its a pistol I find hard to correct the grip on the fly of the draw if its at all off. I found that I was not having this issue with my HK45CT. I realized that however I gripped the P30 on the draw I was essentially stuck with unless I really slowed down to manipulate the change. The "blockyness" and absence of a lot of texture on the HK45CT allows me to easily adjust the pistol in my grip on the fly which actually speeds up my time from draw to shot. So moving to the P2000 made a ton of sense to me to allow my grip changes and to also unify the systems/feel of the two pistols. Added bonus, an XGrip on my spare p30 mags gives me 15 round mags on the hip

 

Down the road at some point I will likely get another P30 as a range gun but it will be one of the rarer P30L Lem no decocker pistols.

[bhunted 887]

Yep, my P30S model seems to be almost like the VP, but not quite the same. Hard to explain.

I had the P30 before the VP9 and I'm in love with both equally. Leaning slightly towards the VP9... But I try not to compare them too much. What I need to do is swap around the grips to see how close I can get the feel. Just haven't had the time.

The safety is a tad high when engaged but after owning several HKs, I have adjusted and it has now become memory. It's no doubt, takes a tad getting use to. But the work well. But then again, I'm an HK fan!

I have IWB for both and kept at 4... Too much spare tire for AIWB.... Lmao. That might change soon though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shane45 807]

Indeed AIWB seems to favor the slim of build! But I seem to be able to somehow pull it off with my Dale Frick holster. Im a 1911 guy so I couldn't get used to the high safety. But I really like the LEM trigger. Some people have trouble with it but for some reason it just works with my "software".

[lunker 274]

Indeed AIWB seems to favor the slim of build! ".

No one would accuse me of being "slim of build", but i think a good holster makes the difference. I have a Milt Sparks that my HK P7 rides in IWB at 8 o'clock (lefty

[High Exposure 5,667]

AIWB (Appendix In the Waistband) and IWB are significantly different

 

As a right handed shooter I wear an IWB rig daily with no issues at 4:00 on my belt line. An AIWB rig worn at 1:00-2:00 on the belt line is a different animal completely.

[lunker 274]

AIWB (Appendix In the Waistband) and IWB are significantly different

 

As a right handed shooter I wear an IWB rig daily with no issues at 4:00 only belt line. An AIWB rig worn at 1:00-2:00 on the belt line is a different animal completely.

Thanks, I mistakenly assumed the A in AIWB to not mean something different than IWB. AIWB would not be much of an option for me.