Questions for NJSP Firearms Investigation Unit at NJ SAFE Conference

[Zeke 5,504]

Let's not digress here. These guys are doing a good thing.

[Kevin125 4,772]

problem with that is that our muzzle brakes pretty much suppress the flash too.

 

Which begs the question.... what rationale is there to make illegal a device that suppress muzzle flash?   Is it the belief of authorities in NJ that the general public is awash with trained snipers looking to conceal their positions?

 

Perhaps Ghillie suits should be illegal?  Or Batman masks...??

 

And while you're at it... could this state please make suppressors legal?  My ears... what's left of them.. would appreciate it.  And we have heard with much certainty that James Bond will not be coming to do field work in NJ. So no worries there.

 

 

Ok.. seriously....

 

What is the rationale for making flash hiders illegal?

 

And why are suppressors illegal when they protect the hearing of the general public and have no record of being used in crimes?

 

And why are the firearms laws of NJ in the minority of the States of this great nation?

[Zeke 5,504]

Which begs the question.... what rationale is there to make illegal a device that suppress muzzle flash? Is it the belief of authorities in NJ that the general public is awash with trained snipers looking to conceal their positions?

 

Perhaps Ghillie suits should be illegal? Or Batman masks...??

 

And while you're at it... could this state please make suppressors legal? My ears... what's left of them.. would appreciate it. And we have heard with much certainty that James Bond will not be coming to do field work in NJ. So no worries there.

 

 

Ok.. seriously....

 

What is the rationale for making flash hiders illegal?

 

And why are suppressors illegal when they protect the hearing of the general public and have no record of being used in crimes?

 

And why are the firearms laws of NJ in the minority of the States of this great nation?

The better question is how does the firearms unit test what is legal/illegal.

They don't make the laws

[GRIZ 3,369]

What guidelines, if any, do they offer troopers with respect to what constitutes a "reasonable deviation" in transit to or from a range? Or is it up to each individual trooper to arrive at his or her own definition?

  

 

Exactly!  Would be nice to know if taking a leak or getting gas is reasonable.  What about stopping for a bite to eat?

Be careful what you ask for. If they define reasonable deviation by statute, those and only those reasonable deviations will be recognized. I don't think anyone is going to tell you you have to crap your pants or let your car run out of gas. Say you get a call on your way home from the range one of your parents had a heart attack and was taken to the hospital. If you go to the hospital instead of directly home that's not a reasonable deviation unless it's listed in the statute.

[weekend_junkie 129]

Say you get a call on your way home from the range one of your parents had a heart attack and was taken to the hospital. If you go to the hospital instead of directly home that's not a reasonable deviation unless it's listed in the statute.

Wow, that is an excellent point.

[John Willett 70]

awesome! thanks man!   don't warn them though......not necessary in nj.........

 

Last year we were using multiple cameras, it's going to be pretty obvious, haha

 

That's awesome will it be on YouTube or anything like that? 

 

Last year's conference is available on our vimeo page, video.njsafecon.net There are a couple of videos that are free, and others available for rent or purchase.  

[John Willett 70]

So far, it looks like we have some really good questions and examples related to the interpretation/application of the "Assault Weapons" Ban (Evil features and firearms banned by name), Reasonable Deviation, and the Permitting Process.  

 

As this is the Firearms Unit of NJSP I expect the focus of the questions is going to be on practical application by officers and the guidance that they provide other agencies. 

 

Are there any big areas I missed? Others we should add?

[Zeke 5,504]

What is there " guidance for reasonable deviations?"

Cough

[Zeke 5,504]

Their! Damn you auto correct!

[1LtCAP 4,264]

carry of course.

[maintenanceguy 510]

NJSP will have a scheduling conflict as soon as they read this thread.

[Zeke 5,504]

NJSP will have a scheduling conflict as soon as they read this thread.

I'm not gonna take that bet.

[Purple Patrick 638]

Is my flash hider a compensator? LOL

 

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[Indianajonze 379]

 

 

A loaded magazine by itself is not illegal. If the firearm for which it is designed is present, we believe that it will then be looked at as being a loaded firearm. That will be up to the courts to decide.

 

 

not sure that's accurate. i've been told several times that loaded mags are perfectly fine so long as they are not actually in the gun. so gun in holder of range bag with empty mag inserted + loaded mags in separate section of range bag, all in the trunk is perfectly ok. is this not the case?

[1LtCAP 4,264]

Is my flash hider a compensator? LOL

 

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no. your comp is a flash hider.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

not sure that's accurate. i've been told several times that loaded mags are perfectly fine so long as they are not actually in the gun. so gun in holder of range bag with empty mag inserted + loaded mags in separate section of range bag, all in the trunk is perfectly ok. is this not the case?

that's what i thought.....but i'm told by nearly everyone that i'm wrong. to me it's pretty stupid/simple. is there a round in the chamber? no? is there ammo in the mag that's in the gun? no? is there a round ANYwhere IN the gun? no? then it's not loaded now is it?

[Kevin125 4,772]

The better question is how does the firearms unit test what is legal/illegal.

They don't make the laws

 

Perhaps.

 

But I would like to hear an explanation as to why they write inaccurate interpretations of the law such as this.

 

 

How do you transport firearms?

 

Firearms shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported.

Ammunition must be transported in a separate container and locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.

 

 

This is for Transportation -into- the state of NJ.  Not within it's borders.

 

They create confusion and improperly guide their officers and Local LEOs potentially creating situations where people are improperly detained or even arrested and charged when no crime was committed.

 

http://www.njsp.org/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

[Zeke 5,504]

Perhaps.

 

But I would like to hear an explanation as to why they write inaccurate interpretations of the law such as this.

 

 

 

This is for Transportation -into- the state of NJ. Not within it's borders.

 

They create confusion and improperly guide there officers and Local LEOs potentially creating situations where people are improperly detained or even arrested and charged when no crime was committed.

 

http://www.njsp.org/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

Agreed, another good question!

[PK90 3,570]

not sure that's accurate. i've been told several times that loaded mags are perfectly fine so long as they are not actually in the gun. so gun in holder of range bag with empty mag inserted + loaded mags in separate section of range bag, all in the trunk is perfectly ok. is this not the case?

My response would be their answer. Of course it is legal to have loaded mags even if they are touching the host gun. Insertion is different. Kind of like getting to 3rd base.

 

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[1LtCAP 4,264]

IF the question of wait times comes up......i'd peruse these forums, and see if those that're waiting are willing to let their names be us4ed.......and get an explanation of exactly why it's taking so long. the guy  waiting 8 months now would be an example......shit....it took lindenwold 8 months for me, and 9 for my mom. neiter one of us has ever had more than a traffic ticket.....and her? she's never even had that.....

[Indianajonze 379]

My response would be their answer. Of course it is legal to have loaded mags even if they are touching the host gun. Insertion is different. Kind of like getting to 3rd base.

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Yeah. Asked the firearm guy at my local PD this am and was told the same thing. Loaded mags are fine as long as the mag in the gun itself is not loaded.

 

Seems like this is a great question for this conference. Could you imagine following all of these ridiculous damn rules only to go to jail for some nonsense like this?

[PK90 3,570]

An answer to this, or a statement in your favor, will not prevent a night in jail.

 

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[1LtCAP 4,264]

An answer to this, or a statement in your favor, will not prevent a night in jail.

 

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it will once they learn that they're opened up to lawsuits for false arrest.......

[Khamil10 5]

  

 

 

Be careful what you ask for. If they define reasonable deviation by statute, those and only those reasonable deviations will be recognized. I don't think anyone is going to tell you you have to crap your pants or let your car run out of gas. Say you get a call on your way home from the range one of your parents had a heart attack and was taken to the hospital. If you go to the hospital instead of directly home that's not a reasonable deviation unless it's listed in the statute.

 

 

Your point is well taken, though a simple phrase such as "reasonable deviations include but are not limited to...." would enable complete clarity on some of the most common questions that arise without closing the door on other reasonable but less-easily-foreseen deviations.

[maintenanceguy 510]

I want to know what guidance police officers are given concerning transport of firearms in NJ.  The NJSP website (http://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-firearm.shtml) says the following:

 

"The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console."

 

I don't believe that's actually part of NJ law.  Are NJSP officers told to make an arrest if my shotgun is cased, unloaded, but in the passenger compartment of my pickup with me?   I believe transporting this way is legal.  Will I be arrested anyway?

[1LtCAP 4,264]

I want to know what guidance police officers are given concerning transport of firearms in NJ.  The NJSP website (http://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-firearm.shtml) says the following:

 

"The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console."

 

I don't believe that's actually part of NJ law.  Are NJSP officers told to make an arrest if my shotgun is cased, unloaded, but in the passenger compartment of my pickup with me?   I believe transporting this way is legal.  Will I be arrested anyway?

on that note, i did have an officer tell me that if one were to have the police style long gun locking rack....like tactical shit sells....anfd the gun was unloaded and locked in that, that it is legal......am i gonna test that? hellllll no!

[Indianajonze 379]

An answer to this, or a statement in your favor, will not prevent a night in jail.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

 

i disagree. if they say definitively that loaded mags are not legal then i'd say it's fairly certain i'd stop that practice, which would prevent a night in jail. if they say definitively that it is legal to load mags except for the one in the gun, i at least have some evidence in my favor

[PK90 3,570]

i disagree. if they say definitively that loaded mags are not legal then i'd say it's fairly certain i'd stop that practice, which would prevent a night in jail. if they say definitively that it is legal to load mags except for the one in the gun, i at least have some evidence in my favor

You will have a defense, but a statement made will not prevent an arrest. Hell, people are getting arrested for airsoft toys, legally transported firearms, and assault pump shotguns.

 

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[GRIZ 3,369]

Your point is well taken, though a simple phrase such as "reasonable deviations include but are not limited to...." would enable complete clarity on some of the most common questions that arise without closing the door on other reasonable but less-easily-foreseen deviations.

That would bring us back to what we have now if you write a law like that. If my example were not listed. A jury would have to determine if my deviation were reasonable.

 

Most laws tell you what you can't do. NJ gun laws are written to tell you what you can do. This is the problem with them. If you are writing laws telling people what they can do, you are likely to overlook things you would "give permission" to happen.

 

Using the bathroom, getting gas or stopping to eat are obviously reasonable deviations. This is based on the fact I have never heard of any one being arrested for engaging in these activities going or coming from a range in NJ. Someone must have been caught doing this. Or stopping to pick up a pizza or pack of Pampers. Find me a case. I've asked this question several times before and no one has found one. Writing a law that would say "include but not limited to" would give some relief but not solve the problem.

 

The problem is all of NJ gun laws need to be rewritten. Thats not coming soon I'll tell you that.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

concerning carry.....and you'd have to give them lead time on this one i think.

 

 with all of the background checks we go through......and if i'm not mistaken, it's at least equal to what people in other states go through for nfa items?  but with all of these background checks, why can't we carry? i'd like to see them list true examples of how our laws have actually prevented crime. with references cited. i'd also like to know how often they re-qualify and train(the avg officer on the street, not special units) in order to remain proficient with their firearm, as compared to the avg gun enthusiast that will be carrying(we know that most of us train monthly or weekly). essentially, i'm looking for their justification in not allowing us the option. i don't think they have any.