Train Crash in Hoboken

[Sota 1,191]

Hint... you're not the genius we're looking for.

[BlueLineFish 615]

This thread went downhill fast. Everybody wants answers ASAP. That's the problem. Let the investigation conclude before accusations, critiques and conspiracy theories start flying

[Sota 1,191]

[ChrisJM981 924]

I could hypothesize all day about what happened. It's best to wait for the NTSB to finish their investigation. Similar to whenever there is a shooting of some person allegedly doing nothing wrong, calling for blood before the facts come out with often leave you with egg on your face. The engineer coming into the terminal would have been on a slow approach signal, which would have displayed a restricting signal through the cab signal display on the operating control stand. Positive train control would not have done anything to stop the train in this scenario. I don't think he was doing anything he shouldn't have been, as it's unlikely he would be cooperating this early in the investigation if he had something to hide. 

[10X 3,296]

So it's been 24 hours, everyone on the train including the engineer survived, he's conscious and talking, and there's still not even an inkling of what happened??

The NTSB owns the investigation. They're thorough and slow and not at all inclined to issue periodic "here's what we think so far" updates. And with the federal investigation underway, I'm sure the local agencies are discouraged from offering up any statement of what they think.

 

If they handle train crashes the way they do plane crashes, they will issue a short preliminary report in 1-3 days, and the final report in a couple of weeks.

[voyager9 3,434]

Breaking News!

It's Newtons fault.

 

F=mA

 

 

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[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

It was Samuel L. Jackson...

 

 

[voyager9 3,434]

It was Samuel L. Jackson...

 

 

There must have been snakes on it.

 

 

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[HBecwithFn7 296]

 

Hey all!   Long time no type! Enjoying life and freedom here in FL, but having commuted on these NJ Transit trains for 12+ years (and being a train buff in general), and given all the live coverage of this incident on the Fox News Channel, I had to chime in on this thread. A few thoughts...

 

 

I was there. It was real bad. Train over the block, onto the platform and through a news stand at the back of the station. Lots of injuries ranging from mild to severe. It looked like something out of a movie

I feel for you BLF. Get some CISD if you need it. I never worked that severe a scene as an EMT, but close.

 

It was reported that no foul play is suspected. They suspect user error or malfunction.

 

 

Agreed. I don't believe it was foul play, either, but we'll hopefully see soon. 

 

 

Engineer, Operator, Conductor. Who cares. Someone on the train has the ability to stop it.

Technically, the Conductor is "the boss" and responsible for the train and overall passenger safety. The engineer is only the driver and reports to the conductor. There could have been a couple of different ways to stop it, if someone recognized the problem in time. By the time this happened, the conductor and brakeman are probably preparing the vestibules for arrival (opening/closing traps, keeping people out of the vestibules that are queuing up to make the "mad dash" out of the cars, etc.). Perhaps, the conductor or brakeman might be testing the emergency hand brake during this time, but not sure this happened in this case. Yes, someone could "dumb" the train by pulling the dumb valve, but again, did they recognize the problem in time, and would that have solved it? BTW, some people were reporting that the train was traveling at "full speed" into the terminal.  Hard to believe, since "full speed" can be as great as 70-80mph for those trains. Maybe faster than the normal entry speed of 10-15mph, but those trains have to go very slow through the main yard switch/interlocking  anyway or else they'd jump it pre-maturely. So I don't think it was *that* fast.  

 

All the trains to into Hoboken that way, backasswards. Engineer controls train from console in leading car.

 

Chicago's commuter trains work exactly the same way (push inbound, pull outbound). The objective, I believe, is to keep the engines further away from the terminal platform doors... less noisy, less pollution (in the case of the diesel or Amtrak "Turbo Liner" engines), and, maybe, a small bit of safety (passengers don't have to get near an engine to get on the train. This seems to be how things work in terminals that don't have a easy "turn around" track jig (i.e. a "Wye"). New York Penn does have the ability to have a train turn around in Sunnyside yard (a very large loop track). But, sometimes, it gets busy so they don't, and the train "pushes" out of NY Penn. But they also don't allow the older diesel locomotives (without pollution reduction technology) into NY Penn. I recall once when Amtrak actually had a "Turboliner" waiting at NY Penn. Turboliners had a gas turbine engine on each end of the train, and reeked of jet fuel.  It took them forever to clear out the lower waiting area at NY Penn that evening!

 

Engines are all on the outbound side, but controlled from the front. Based on the information available, I'm going with mechanical failure.

Well.... not "always." Some things I've observed in those 12+ years of commuting.

 

Yes, these trains have "cab cars" with a complete set of controls for the engineer when in "push" mode. In fact, Chicago area trains are all "double decker" trains and the cab area is in the upper deck and will accommodate two persons. I'm not sure of the legalities of that (i.e. is it unlawful or against railroad policy to have someone else in the cab that can distract the engineer)? 

 

Sometimes, when staging a train from the yard onto a terminal platform (e.g. from the "Dover yard" onto the Dover platform), The conductor will sit in the engine or cab and act only as a "pair of eyes," while the engineer eases the train onto the platform area (in reverse) from the opposite end. This, so the engineer doesn't have to walk all the way from one end to another and they can do the break test faster. Although, I recall once when I was traveling home, the engineer just blew right by my stop (next to last stop and I was the only one left on board) and went to the end of the line. It was their last run of the day and they were only going back to the yard. So, normally, they'd go to the end, and the engineer would walk forward to the front, do the break test, and be on his way to the yard. This time, to speed things up, the conductor sat in the "cab car" quickly did the break test and started the train towards my station. The engineer arrived in the cab car a few moments later, very embarrassed. No, I don't think there were any violations here. I think that particular conductor also had his engineer ticket.

 

Furthermore, sometimes based on weather conditions, the First train inbound will have the engine in front to act as a "plow" of sorts... either snow, or small branches if it's a wind storm, or ice or whatever. Also, during the autumn months, when it's rainy with a lot of leaves over the tracks, I've even seen them put one engine on each end for a "push/pull" effect (especially the ALP-44s), as the oily leaves might cause some traction problems.

 

Anyway, stay safe folks! 

[Purple Patrick 638]

Hey I was wondering where you went

 

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[HBecwithFn7 296]

Update: Some tweets coming in now indicating that the "data recorder" recovered from the engine is "not functioning...."  

 

They still have yet to recover the recorder in the cab car.... 

[High Exposure 5,664]

Update: Some tweets coming in now indicating that the "data recorder" recovered from the engine is "not functioning...."

 

They still have yet to recover the recorder in the cab car....

Cue the tin foil wearers....

[gleninjersey 2,141]

Just heard on Bloomberg radio engineer is awake and said he was "only going 10 mph."

 

Even if the speedometer wasn't working, I find it hard to believe an engineer with decades of experience doesn't know the difference between traveling at 10 mph and however fast that train was traveling. The train went througn the obstacle to slow it, went through a wall, hit the ceiling and traveled into the station. It sounds like it was going A MUCH faster than 10 mph.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Just heard on Bloomberg radio engineer is awake and said he was "only going 10 mph."

 

Even if the speedometer wasn't working, I find it hard to believe an engineer with decades of experience doesn't know the difference between traveling at 10 mph and however fast that train was traveling. The train went througn the obstacle to slow it, went through a wall, hit the ceiling and traveled into the station. It sounds like it was going A MUCH faster than 10 mph.

 

And without the data recorders to verify the actual speed, he just might get away with that claim. Perhaps he knew they weren't working.. 

They better hope they can get that other data recorder and that it worked...   Either that, or they have video of the train approaching and can determine the speed from that video. 

[67gtonut 847]

Locomotive.... 100 tons

Each car.... 50 tons

 

Even at 10 mph.... If mechanical brake failure occurred.... 200 tons.... 400,000 lbs is not going be stopped without a lot of damage occurring

[PeteF 1,044]

Locomotive.... 100 tons

Each car.... 50 tons

 

Even at 10 mph.... If mechanical brake failure occurred.... 200 tons.... 400,000 lbs is not going be stopped without a lot of damage occurring

This.

Most people have no idea how much energy there is in that much mass.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

This.

Most people have no idea how much energy there is in that much mass.

 

I don't disagree. The question becomes, what caused the breaks to fail or not be applied?  And, why couldn't the engineer "dumb" the train as could anyone who could pull the dumb valve (Emergency break lever)?  If that failed (mechanically), then there are much deeper issues.  And why did it fail right when entering Hoboken terminal, as opposed to somewhere else along the route? 

[Sota 1,191]

Locomotive.... 100 tons

Each car.... 50 tons

 

Even at 10 mph.... If mechanical brake failure occurred.... 200 tons.... 400,000 lbs is not going be stopped without a lot of damage occurring

 

1.1316e+25 electron volts

1.8130e+13 ergs

1.8130e+6 joules (watt second)

1.3372e+6 foot pounds

503.6 watt hours

4.3331e-4 ton TNT

4.3331e-7 kiloton TNT

4.3331e-10 megaton TNT

[10X 3,296]

Oh, good. I was wondering how many electron volts that was! :-)

 

I'm surprised the TNT equivalent was less than a pound... That seems low, but I've not much to base that on.

 

Converting to a unit more familiar to the shooters here, the train had a power factor of over 410,000,000, so the USPSA/IDPA folks would score it as "major".

[voyager9 3,434]

1.1316e+25 electron volts

1.8130e+13 ergs

1.8130e+6 joules (watt second)

1.3372e+6 foot pounds

503.6 watt hours

4.3331e-4 ton TNT

4.3331e-7 kiloton TNT

4.3331e-10 megaton TNT

It really should be in units of Force. How many midichlorians is that?

 

 

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[HBecwithFn7 296]

Oh, good. I was wondering how many electron volts that was! :-)

 

I'm surprised the TNT equivalent was less than a pound... That seems low, but I've not much to base that on.

 

Converting to a unit more familiar to the shooters here, the train had a power factor of over 410,000,000, so the USPSA/IDPA folks would score it as "major".

 

The "force/power" etc. of the impact isn't really relevant... any impact that  breaches the restraint system on the track (the back stop) is bad. The real questions to be asked and answered are, "Why did it breach that restraint?"  Why didn't the breaking system slow/stop the train as it should, normally?  And what can be done to prevent that from happening again?

[BlueLineFish 615]

Most stop blocks are only rated for 5mph. I have seen slow speed trains hit those and go through them and breach the concrete platform. That was on much lighter trains. Have seen it a couple times on the PATH system. Those trains are nowhere near the size of transit

[Purple Patrick 638]

Most stop blocks are only rated for 5mph. I have seen slow speed trains hit those and go through them and breach the concrete platform. That was on much lighter trains. Have seen it a couple times on the PATH system. Those trains are nowhere near the size of transit

You'd think all these incidents would lead to better barricades

 

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[HBecwithFn7 296]

You'd think all these incidents would lead to better barricades

 

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I recall seeing those stop blocks in Hoboken Terminal when I was in the 1st Grade on my first school field trip.  This was back when the old "Erie Lackawanna" railroad had those old green electric cars with the individual pantographs on each car.  If these are the same stop blocks (i.e. they've never been upgraded), I can see a more modern train breaching them.  I'd not be surprised if they never were upgraded... Heck, even the iron structure holding up the platform canopies still bear the initials  "DLW" - "Delaware, Lackawanna & Western"  -The railroad that originated the Hoboken Terminal.

[10X 3,296]

You'd think all these incidents would lead to better barricades

 

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Better barricades would mean more fatalities in the train, fewer on the platform, unless they cause more jackknifing of the train cars, in which case it gets uglier on the platform again. The problem is, there just isn't enough room to stop the thing with minimal destruction if it enters the station with excess speed

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Better barricades would mean more fatalities in the train, fewer on the platform, unless they cause more jackknifing of the train cars, in which case it gets uglier on the platform again. The problem is, there just isn't enough room to stop the thing with minimal destruction if it enters the station with excess speed

 

Or can't stop once in the station, even at normal entry speed...

[Handyman 5,682]

1.1316e+25 electron volts

1.8130e+13 ergs

1.8130e+6 joules (watt second)

1.3372e+6 foot pounds

503.6 watt hours

4.3331e-4 ton TNT

4.3331e-7 kiloton TNT

4.3331e-10 megaton TNT

 

What, no horsepower?

[ChrisJM981 924]

What, no horsepower?

I don't know which motor was on the other end, but most likely it was an older rebuild, so 3000 hp.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I don't know which motor was on the other end, but most likely it was an older rebuild, so 3000 hp.

 

It appeared to be one of the old GP40s.    

[High Exposure 5,664]