Shortfuse 39 Posted February 11, 2022 What happens to the " Others" if they Ban the Braces I have 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted February 11, 2022 Take it off 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Matrix 105 Posted February 11, 2022 do you have a boat? 3 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lawnmower2021 423 Posted February 11, 2022 I feel your concern. I have an "other" in 5.56 with an SBA3 brace, myself. Is this the most recent actual text on this? https://www.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2021-0002-0001 I tried to search for details specific to a ban but couldn't find anything substantial. (Trying to guess between SBR and Pistol on that page could be turned into a drinking game ) Quote The Office of Management and Budget (“OMB”) has determined that this proposed rule is a “significant regulatory action” that is economically significant under section 3(f) of Executive Order 12866, because the rule will have an annual effect on the economy of $100 million or more. At least they acknowledge the pointless frustration it causes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shortfuse 39 Posted February 12, 2022 Will the Others be exempt from this ban. If you remove the Brace it's no longer an other it's an AR pistol and therefore illegal in NJ. Will we have to put stocks on them and change the barrel to 16" and pin everything 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 247 Posted February 12, 2022 Currently from what I've seen the new regulations apply only to pistols which are under 26". The proposed points system definitely applies to under 26". Non NFA Others can not be pistols because they over 26". I would assume they would turn into an SBR if they also apply the rules to firearms over 26". Would think if you take the brace off (before it officially becomes a "Stock") it would still be a Non-NFA Other (Others can never have had a stock on it or it permanently becomes a rifle I think). Just my guess based on the limited info been able to find so far. If you look at the worksheet, Section 1 Prerequisites, Item 2 says the weapon must have an overall length between 12 and 26". Regulations.gov 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 247 Posted February 12, 2022 Hmm, they might make braces on firearms under 12 or over 26 automatically stocks. I doesn't say what happens or what its considered when it falls outside that range, other than it is not suitable for a brace. "As a preliminary factor when evaluating a submitted sample, certain prerequisites will be applied to determine if the firearm, without the attached “stabilizing brace,” will even be considered a suitable weapon for the brace. " "Conversely, firearms exceeding 26 inches in overall length are impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed, even with a “stabilizing brace,” due to imbalance of the weapon." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shortfuse 39 Posted February 12, 2022 Both of mine are over 26" one is 26.25 and one is 26.50 but if they ban it by Name a Brace is a Brace no mater what your OAL is 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted February 12, 2022 23 minutes ago, Shortfuse said: if they ban it by Name a Brace is a Brace no mater what your OAL is Quote these new rules will not make pistol braces illegal. It will not ban them. In fact, it doesn’t apply to the braces, themselves, at all. As ATF cannot directly regulate this accessory, because for them its legality exists in how it is or isn’t used. As a stand-alone item, it’s completely legal to make, sell, and buy, then. These new regulations apply to the configuration of the complete firearm on which a brace is used. ATF can’t rule on the brace, but they can rule on a complete firearm. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-federal-register-publishes-schedule-for-atfs-firearm-silencer-and-pistol-brace-final-regulations/ They can't "ban it by name" 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 247 Posted February 12, 2022 Right, they can't ban the brace but if you own a pistol or rifle that the addition of that brace that is in your possession would make it a SBR, your rifle would then become illegal in NJ under constructive intent, even if the brace is not currently mounted on it. Essentially a de-facto ban in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted February 13, 2022 On 2/11/2022 at 10:56 PM, ESB said: Right, they can't ban the brace but if you own a pistol or rifle that the addition of that brace that is in your possession would make it a SBR, your rifle would then become illegal in NJ under constructive intent, even if the brace is not currently mounted on it. Essentially a de-facto ban in NJ. 1. There are only two AR pistols which are legal in NJ. I don't own either one, and likely neither do most of the people this rule applies to. 2. If I own a rifle (16"+ barrel by definition) with a stock it's not going to become an SBR by putting a brace on it. It's a spare part along with all the other spare parts I have for firearms I already own. You're overthinking it. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted February 13, 2022 On 2/11/2022 at 5:55 PM, Shortfuse said: What happens to the " Others" if they Ban the Braces I have 2 They look great! Which optic and muzzle device are on the one on the right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted February 13, 2022 On 2/11/2022 at 10:15 PM, ESB said: Hmm, they might make braces on firearms under 12 or over 26 automatically stocks. I doesn't say what happens or what its considered when it falls outside that range, other than it is not suitable for a brace. "As a preliminary factor when evaluating a submitted sample, certain prerequisites will be applied to determine if the firearm, without the attached “stabilizing brace,” will even be considered a suitable weapon for the brace. " "Conversely, firearms exceeding 26 inches in overall length are impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed, even with a “stabilizing brace,” due to imbalance of the weapon." This is exactly why the rule will either never go into effect, or be unenforceable if it ever does. The law doesn't state anything about practicality, accuracy or intent. Giving the same exact brace two different classifications based on what it's attached to is far outside any statutory powers. In regards to others, the above statement doesn't apply, as it's designed to be fired with Two hands, and in this case with the addition of a stabilizing brace. We also have the option to file for AOW if it becomes an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shortfuse 39 Posted February 13, 2022 8 hours ago, ChrisJM981 said: They look great! Which optic and muzzle device are on the one on the right? The scope is a Barska 1-8X24 Don't recall the Muzzle Device but it's sold on Ebay It has outside Threads for installation of a flash can type sleeve It currently wears a Slip over short multi port muzzle device 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 247 Posted February 14, 2022 10 hours ago, JackDaWack said: This is exactly why the rule will either never go into effect, or be unenforceable if it ever does. The law doesn't state anything about practicality, accuracy or intent. Giving the same exact brace two different classifications based on what it's attached to is far outside any statutory powers. In regards to others, the above statement doesn't apply, as it's designed to be fired with Two hands, and in this case with the addition of a stabilizing brace. We also have the option to file for AOW if it becomes an issue. What makes you think it won't go into effect? Seems to be a done deal. "Conversely, firearms exceeding 26 inches in overall length are impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed, even with a “stabilizing brace,” due to imbalance of the weapon." Based on that, it looks like their intent is to make any "pistol brace" on a firearm over 26" to be considered a stock used to fire the weapon from the shoulder because pistol brace would be impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed on anything over 26". An Other with a stock is no longer an Other. Read through this link Regulations.gov including all of the Scenarios and Alternatives about 3/4 toward the bottom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted February 15, 2022 On 2/13/2022 at 8:06 PM, ESB said: What makes you think it won't go into effect? Seems to be a done deal. "Conversely, firearms exceeding 26 inches in overall length are impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed, even with a “stabilizing brace,” due to imbalance of the weapon." Based on that, it looks like their intent is to make any "pistol brace" on a firearm over 26" to be considered a stock used to fire the weapon from the shoulder because pistol brace would be impractical and inaccurate to fire one handed on anything over 26". An Other with a stock is no longer an Other. Read through this link Regulations.gov including all of the Scenarios and Alternatives about 3/4 toward the bottom. First, this is the second time they have gone after pistol braces, the first time around they dropped the proposed rule. Second, "one hand' applies only to pistols. An other by default is fired using two hands wherean imbalance wouldn't be observed.. so the above statement wouldn't apply to a firearm over 26" designed to be fired with two hands, where a brace can add additional support. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 247 Posted February 15, 2022 Try using the brace as intended with 2 hands on an Other. Strapped to your forearm of strong hand and your weak hand on front vertical grip. You can't line up the shot. It places the firearm going across your body, making it impossible to line up sights with your eye. I'd bet that braces on Others will be considered stocks making them illegal in NJ as it is then a SBR. If that is the case, is there something useful that can go on the buffer tube to keep it legal in NJ as an Other without having to change out the barrel and make it into a rifle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted February 15, 2022 35 minutes ago, ESB said: Try using the brace as intended with 2 hands on an Other. Strapped to your forearm of strong hand and your weak hand on front vertical grip. You can't line up the shot. It places the firearm going across your body, making it impossible to line up sights with your eye. I'd bet that braces on Others will be considered stocks making them illegal in NJ as it is then a SBR. If that is the case, is there something useful that can go on the buffer tube to keep it legal in NJ as an Other without having to change out the barrel and make it into a rifle? You're really letting go with the fear on this. IDK about you but I'm able to use the brace and hold my other properly with 2 hands. As previously stated - they can't rule on the actual accessory - only the completed firearm. If you're really looking for another workaround - there's always this. https://blackcollararms.com/product/aps/ 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,922 Posted February 15, 2022 55 minutes ago, ESB said: I'd bet that braces on Others will be considered stocks making them illegal in NJ as it is then a SBR. If that is the case, is there something useful that can go on the buffer tube to keep it legal in NJ as an Other without having to change out the barrel and make it into a rifle? If you put a rifle stock on a non-NFA Other it becomes an SBR which is verboten. You can currently have a pistol brace because is is not a rifle stock. If, by the magic of the ATF saying so, a pistol brace becomes a rifle stock your currently configured non-NFA Other would magically become am SBR unless... ...you take off the pistol brace that has now been deemed a stock. Now your non-NFA Other would still be a non-NFA Other. There is nothing to say you have to install anything on the receiver extension. Just leave it bare. 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted February 16, 2022 On 2/15/2022 at 5:33 PM, ESB said: Try using the brace as intended with 2 hands on an Other. Strapped to your forearm of strong hand and your weak hand on front vertical grip. You can't line up the shot. It places the firearm going across your body, making it impossible to line up sights with your eye. I'd bet that braces on Others will be considered stocks making them illegal in NJ as it is then a SBR. If that is the case, is there something useful that can go on the buffer tube to keep it legal in NJ as an Other without having to change out the barrel and make it into a rifle? You seem to be making arguments for the FATF that even they aren't making... They say weapons designed to be fired with one hand, that's not what an other is... If they want the rule to apply to others it should not just be more clear, It shouldn't use language that explicitly excludes them. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formula11 0 Posted February 23, 2022 Did anybody look at the worksheet bottom of the page 2. If there is a secondary grip it's made to be shot with two hands and it's considered to be shouldered fired. Wouldn't it be considered a SBR than? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, formula11 said: Did anybody look at the worksheet bottom of the page 2. If there is a secondary grip it's made to be shot with two hands and it's considered to be shouldered fired. Wouldn't it be considered a SBR than? Non-NFA Others are over 26" OAL. does not meet prerequisites so it doesn't apply... 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
formula11 0 Posted February 23, 2022 So if it's over the 26" the worksheet means nothing? I'd really like to build a "other" but it will be annoying if it's illegal in August and have to turn into a rifle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted February 23, 2022 22 minutes ago, formula11 said: So if it's over the 26" the worksheet means nothing? I'd really like to build a "other" but it will be annoying if it's illegal in August and have to turn into a rifle. Supposedly it means nothing - Honestly - the brace part is removable - so worst case - you remove the brace.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 247 Posted February 24, 2022 The worksheet is for seeing if the brace can still be considered a brace on a pistol. That means they could effectively say all brace are considered stocks unless it meets these requirements on this worksheet. If it doesn't meet the requirements, its a stock. That would make Non-NFA Others a SBR if it still had the braces on them at time of implementation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted February 24, 2022 5 hours ago, ESB said: The worksheet is for seeing if the brace can still be considered a brace on a pistol. That means they could effectively say all brace are considered stocks unless it meets these requirements on this worksheet. If it doesn't meet the requirements, its a stock. That would make Non-NFA Others a SBR if it still had the braces on them at time of implementation. Again - you're completely ignoring the fact that the ATF cannot directly regulate the accessory. As a stand-alone item, it’s completely legal to make, sell, and buy. These new regulations apply to the configuration of the complete firearm on which a brace is used. THIS MEANS BRACES ARE NOT GOING TO BE CONSIDERED STOCKS AUTOMATICALLY. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted February 25, 2022 35 minutes ago, Porthole said: You can put your right arm though a brace, velcro it tight, use your left hand for a secondary grip and still site down the length of the site radius? Yes. And yes, even at full extension on the brace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites