Question regarding concealed carry on private property

[GrumpyOldRetiree 38]

In light of Judge Bumb's recent ruling on the Preliminary Injunction, I just want to make sure I completely understand the changes from the TRO.

Re: private property...licensed concealed carriers can enter private property if it is open to the public (e.g. retail stores) unless they have a sign prohibiting firearms, but for other private property (e.g. residences) we now need express consent to enter while carrying.

Is this correct?

Also...if this is correct, can the permission be verbal or does it have to be in writing? Inquiring minds want to know!

[CMJeepster 2,778]

You might want to consider posting the question here:

 

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

You need express consent to enter the private part of private property. The Judge went to some lengths to explain that the curtilage (driveway, front path, porch up to the front door, etc.) are generally open to the public unless posted (e.g. "No trespassers" sign) so you may presume carrying is allowed there. To pass beyond that threshold, you need express consent.

Express consent may take pretty much any form - a sign posted, verbal inquiry, notice posted on a web site, etc. 

[CMJeepster 2,778]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Express consent may take pretty much any form - a sign posted, verbal inquiry, notice posted on a web site, Trump 2024 flag, etc. 

FIFY.

[1LtCAP 4,263]

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

You need express consent to enter the private part of private property. The Judge went to some lengths to explain that the curtilage (driveway, front path, porch up to the front door, etc.) are generally open to the public unless posted (e.g. "No trespassers" sign) so you may presume carrying is allowed there. To pass beyond that threshold, you need express consent.

Express consent may take pretty much any form - a sign posted, verbal inquiry, notice posted on a web site, etc. 

sooo....when i take mom to my aunts this weekend for memorial day, i gotta ask her before i can enter her house while carrying?

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

Just now, 1LtCAP said:

sooo....when i take mom to my aunts this weekend for memorial day, i gotta ask her before i can enter her house while carrying?

Yep. I have a similar, but perhaps more awkward situation with picking my kids up from my ex-wife's house.

[1LtCAP 4,263]

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

Yep. I have a similar, but perhaps more awkward situation with picking my kids up from my ex-wife's house.

yea. she's not anti-gun....but i'm pretty sure she'll give me the old "why do you feel the need to carry a gun here?"

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

3 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

yea. she's not anti-gun....but i'm pretty sure she'll give me the old "why do you feel the need to carry a gun here?"

Tell her that it is more about the journey than the destination and once it is in your holster, it is safer to leave it there than take it out and unload it for the visit, then handle it again to load it back up for the journey home.

[Bagarocks 36]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:21 PM, 1LtCAP said:

sooo....when i take mom to my aunts this weekend for memorial day, i gotta ask her before i can enter her house while carrying?

Or purchase a gun safe with a cable that are small and secure and leave it in yer vehicle. This way if I approach a property where its unlawful to enter I'm covered.

I have a Snap safe lockbox. It has a cable that locks into the safe. Weapon is secure and unless yer carrying bolt cutters or Haligan bar to separate the safe from vehicle...

[Krdshrk 3,877]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:21 PM, 1LtCAP said:

sooo....when i take mom to my aunts this weekend for memorial day, i gotta ask her before i can enter her house while carrying?

If you are invited in you have explicit permission.  You do not have to disclose that you're carrying.  If the private property owner somehow finds out and revokes permission, you can go and lock it up in the car.  

[1LtCAP 4,263]

5 hours ago, Bagarocks said:

Or purchase a gun safe with a cable that are small and secure and leave it in yer vehicle. This way if I approach a property where its unlawful to enter I'm covered.

I have a Snap safe lockbox. It has a cable that locks into the safe. Weapon is secure and unless yer carrying bolt cutters or Haligan bar to separate the safe from vehicle...

i haven't done that yet.....i need to get on that.

1 hour ago, Krdshrk said:

If you are invited in you have explicit permission.  You do not have to disclose that you're carrying.  If the private property owner somehow finds out and revokes permission, you can go and lock it up in the car.  

that's pretty much what i was thinking. when we were down there a few weeks ago, she started that convo with telling me about florida going constitutional carry, then asked me if i'd gotten my permit here yet. i told her that i had, then explained all the bs we have to go through to get it. she never asked me if i was carrying that day(i was of course)

[Krdshrk 3,877]

34 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

i haven't done that yet.....i need to get on that.

Don't need to get expensive or fancy.  Amazon one does as good (or better) than the Nanovault I had which broke.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077K3FJHC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 5/31/2023 at 4:36 PM, Krdshrk said:

If you are invited in you have explicit permission.  You do not have to disclose that you're carrying.  If the private property owner somehow finds out and revokes permission, you can go and lock it up in the car.  

You are presuming that it would be up to the property owner to know or determine that you are carrying. I don't think that is consistent with what Judge Bumb ruled. "Explicit permission" pretty clearly implies the need for a request to me.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

One vague area to me would be a quasi-private club that requires membership, but makes that membership available to anyone who applies, and/or holds functions where members may bring guests who are not members. Would that be considered public or private. I'm thinking primarily of two different types of properties: purchasing clubs such as BJs; and the local yacht club.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

18 minutes ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

You are presuming that it would be up to the property owner to know or determine that you are carrying. I don't think that is consistent with what Judge Bumb ruled. "Explicit permission" pretty clearly implies the need for a request to me.

I was simply quoting what Dan Schmutter said on the Gun for Hire Podcast - he explained Explicit permission vs Implied.  Your line of thinking goes along with the state's which is incorrect, dangerous, and unconstitutional.  The state tried to put forth that the default rule was actually to DENY permission to carry, unless explicitly granted, which Judge Bumb found to be unconstitutional.

If you are carrying in a private property owner's residence, and they somehow find out that you are carrying, they can revoke your permission... in which case you can leave or put the gun away and re-enter if they allow.  If you refuse to leave, then you can be charged with trespassing.  

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:08 PM, Krdshrk said:

I was simply quoting what Dan Schmutter said on the Gun for Hire Podcast - he explained Explicit permission vs Implied.  Your line of thinking goes along with the state's which is incorrect, dangerous, and unconstitutional.  The state tried to put forth that the default rule was actually to DENY permission to carry, unless explicitly granted, which Judge Bumb found to be unconstitutional.

If you are carrying in a private property owner's residence, and they somehow find out that you are carrying, they can revoke your permission... in which case you can leave or put the gun away and re-enter if they allow.  If you refuse to leave, then you can be charged with trespassing.  

I hope that is correct, but it doesn't seem to comport with my reading of what Bumb's wrote. IMO requiring explicit permission IS unconstitutional, along with a number of other things that came out of Bruen and that Bumb has apparently allowed the state of NJ to get away with. We could have had a far worse result than only allowing restrictions analogous to those that existed in 1789 & 1791, but I contend that the Consitution was meant to be read plainly and unambiguously, and that "shall not be infringed" means precisely that, no more, no less. In the meantime, I pretty much know how all of my friends and acquaintences view firearms, and for now I will probably base whether or not I carry on their premises accordingly.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

On 6/5/2023 at 4:03 PM, Grima Squeakersen said:

I hope that is correct, but it doesn't seem to comport with my reading of what Bumb's wrote.

Will all due respect, I'd take his interpretation over anything you might be reading on the internet.  He's been doing this a long time.

[MikeA 6]

Sorry to bother you guys but I'm new here and can't seen to find the answer to this question.

In NJ can you carry outside your house on your own land?  At our poker game last night a guy said that he talked to a lawyer from Law Shield and was told that it was illegal to carry outside on your own property in NJ. But everything I've read on the internet has said that I can carry even openly on my own land if I want too.

So I figured I'd ask that question here  because I'm thinking that you guys would be well aware of what's legal or not.

Edited December 15, 2023 by MikeA

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

In NJ carrying a firearm without a permit is a possession charge.

2C:39-5. Unlawful possession of weapons.

   a. Machine guns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession a machine gun or any instrument or device adaptable for use as a machine gun, without being licensed to do so as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-5, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.
 
   b.   Handguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the second degree. (2) If the handgun is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person it is a crime of the third degree.
 
   c.   Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.
 
   (2)   Unless otherwise permitted by law, any person who knowingly has in his possession any loaded rifle or shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

There is an exemption for your own property.

2C:39-6 Exemptions.

 e.   Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person's place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to the person's residence or place of business, between the person's dwelling and place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between the person's dwelling or place of business and place where the firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

[MikeA 6]

Please for give me Mr.Su but my brain at 78 has slowed down and I'm still a little confused. I do have a permit to own my guns but not a carry permit.

So am I still allowed to carry outside on my own property ?

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

4 minutes ago, MikeA said:

Please for give me Mr.Su but my brain at 78 has slowed down and I'm still a little confused. I do have a permit to own my guns but not a carry permit.

So am I still allowed to carry outside on my own property ?

If you had a permit, none of the possession charges could be brought against you, because the possession offence is only applicable when you are in possession "without first having obtained a permit".

As you don't have a permit you could be charged for possession, except "Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person's place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm"

So the short answer is, so long as you are on property or land owned or possessed by you, you're fine carrying your gun.

If you're outside, in plain view of public spaces, it is advisable to carry concealed to prevent people calling the cops and alleging that you were brandishing. Also note that common areas, such as corridors, stairwells and walkways at, for example a condo, are not considered private property and you do need a permit to carry there.

[MikeA 6]

Thank you once again , you've been a big help Mr. Su.

May I ask you another question please . I am planning on carry the Byrna launcher.  I've been told that the pepper spray rounds and hard plastic rounds(kenetic)are illegal in NJ but the econ -kenetic (which break apart) and the max rounds which contain some pepper spray and tear gas are legal.

According to the company Byrna there are no restrictions on shipping any of their products to NJ as there are in a few other states.

Are you aware of this product and what laws in NJ cover this launcher?

 

The reason I don't want a carry permit is because I don't know how I could handle killing somebody or hurting a bystander. I just want something to protect my wife and self if the need arises. 

 

Murphy doesn't care about out safety. He cares more about criminal rights than citizens rights or their lives. I have to protect my family whether Murphy likes it or not. His family is protected just as many of his cronies in NJ politics. Why are their lives more important than my family?

Sorry for the rant and I hope to not bother you again.

Thank you, Michael

[124gr9mm 859]

1 hour ago, MikeA said:

I am planning on carry the Byrna launcher. 

Respectfully, that thing isn't going to protect you and/or your wife from much.  All you're going ot do is piss criminals off.

And how do you plan to 'carry' it.  The thing looks huge...

[MikeA 6]

It's about the size ofr an 1911 but much lighter of course. I already have 2 holsters for it. One from a company called sneaky-pete where it's a case that looks like you're carry an I-pad and I'll have an apple sticker on the outside cover...it's a little on the big side but nobody wold know whats inside of it...The case is closed but easy to open and draw if God forbid I have too. The other holster is a paddle holster that hides it pretty good. 

 

I'm just looking to get away from trouble . The max ammo will make it very, very uncomfortable for anybody that gets hit with it and will give me 30-45 mins to get away if needed. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by MikeA

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

34 minutes ago, MikeA said:

It's about the size ofr an 1911 but much lighter of course.

It looks a good deal wider than a 1911, but it is what it is.

I would be concerned that their website only mentions a 6.5lb second trigger pull. The first pull has to pierce the CO2 cylinder so I'm guessing that is heavier. How much heavier? Clearly more than they are willing to say publicly. You say you're 78 years old, and if I remember correctly, you have arthritis which effects your hand strength. If I were you, I would want to be sure that I could get the first shot off before I paid money for one of these.

Their website doesn't say how much OC is in each ball. Just so you know, you may not carry more than 3/4oz in NJ.

49 minutes ago, MikeA said:

The max ammo

The MAX ammo contains CS gas - you cannot carry that legally in NJ. You will be limited to the Pepper ammo if you want to stay legal.

50 minutes ago, MikeA said:

will give me 30-45 mins to get away if needed

I don't know where you got that info from, but it is highly optimistic. Pepper spray may deter an attacker but there is by no means a guarantee on that. As @124gr9mm said, you may just piss off your attacker even more. Maybe OC will deter your attacker for up to 45 minutes, but it might also not work at all - 0-45 minutes would be more accurate. At 78 years old, I don't know how far or fast you can run, but I'm going to guess not that far or fast compared to the common criminal.

My personal opinion is that the Byrna is a gimmick. If you want to carry a less-than-lethal option, I would suggest a more traditional and proven method, such as a Kimber Pepperblaster. I would also carry a firearm to deal with the attacker who wants to escalate after being sprayed.

[124gr9mm 859]

58 minutes ago, MikeA said:

I'm just looking to get away from trouble . The max ammo will make it very, very uncomfortable for anybody that gets hit with it and will give me 30-45 mins to get away if needed. 

Again respectfully, the Byrna will do nothing to a motivated attacker other than piss him off, IF you're able to deploy it.

It's a low-power paintball gun.  Under perfect conditions the gas might distract someone, but ultimately it will not disable them.

The C02 system is prone to failure if the gun sits unused for any lenght of time (like many airsoft pistols) so that's another failure point you need to worry about.

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

Just now, 124gr9mm said:

The C02 system is prone to failure if the gun sits unused for any lenght of time (like many airsoft pistols) so that's another failure point you need to worry about.

They thought of that and the CO2 cylinder stays sealed until the first shot. The pressure required on the trigger to pierce the cylinder is unpublished. The drawback is that there is no way to be sure the cylinder is properly seated and sealed until after attempting that first shot - or even if it had gas in it to start with.

[MikeA 6]

It so happens I was doing so practice as soon as I got the launcher and I had trouble with the trigger.  I sent it back to them and should get it back today. They had to change some trigger parts but also said that I might have tighten the CO2 to much. 

 

I must say they excellent support services.

[diamondd817 827]

Concealed is concealed.

[MikeA 6]

There are a number of such videos that show similar results especially with the max ammo ...so I guess if I'm going illegal it really doesn't matter.....just don't want to kill anybody or an innocent bystander.

They say that if you pull the trigger while the safety is on it breaks the seal on the co2 and the first shot fires out faster.....who knows, hopefully I'll never find out.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=byrna+videos&oq=byrna+videos&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDggAEEUYJxg7GIAEGIoFMg4IABBFGCcYOxiABBiKBTIHCAEQABiABDIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjIICAUQABgWGB4yBggGEEUYPDIGCAcQLhhA0gEJMTEyMzRqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&ip=1&vld=cid:992f84a5,vid:0iQlsb0n6IY,st:0