Non-Hollowpoint? (Long)

[Mr.Stu 1,942]

1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

The primer is the one variable we have no control over.  I use only CCI primers and I am a maniac about where and how they are stored! That's the best anyone can do since factory ammo primers are also not tested either before seating every bullet!

Commercial manufacturers don't claim their ammo can never malfunction. 

9 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Been reloading since 1974.  Never had a primer not go off.  No need to test them...even if there was a test.

It can and does happen. The chance of contamination isn't restricted to the the last person to handle them. I'm happy you've been lucky enough to avoid the problem. 

[JohnnyB 4,345]

7 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

From where?!

Bud's  https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/411555548/hornady+90235le+critical+duty+9mm+135gr+flexlock+50ct+box

I should have added you do have to qualify to purchase. They had my DD214 so no issues. Great price though!

[Krdshrk 3,883]

Welp nvm... but that's a dang good price.

[xXxplosive 828]

don't care much for these rubber tipped rounds....they attract dirt in the magazine and the rubber gets dirty, and the rubber wears / rubs if your carrying the mag in pocket.....could affect loading port delivery.....omo.

[DirtyDigz 1,813]

34 minutes ago, xXxplosive said:

don't care much for these rubber tipped rounds....they attract dirt in the magazine and the rubber gets dirty, and the rubber wears / rubs if your carrying the mag in pocket.....could affect loading port delivery.....omo.

Here's the Hornaday Critical Defense rounds I've been cycling in and out of of my G26 and G19 mags for home and PTC carry for the last ~4 years.  I unload them from the mag in so I can load FMJ's for range sessions, usually onto my bed comforter, and then put them in a dish on the dresser. 

They've fallen on the floor and rolled into the under bed dust bunnies a bunch of times.  I've carried them loaded in a mag in my pocket a bunch of times. 

I carry with a round in the chamber, so they've all been chambered a bunch of times.

Never an issue.  I don't think the rubber/polymer/whatever tip actually contacts the feed ramp, but maybe I'll do a close up video of a slow chambering to check.  The tips definitely collected carbon residue, but they're not  looking like they're packed with feeding or chambering inhibiting detritus to my eyes.

I probably should fire these off my next range trip and cycle new ones in.

[xXxplosive 828]

and those are the ones from your mag..they were red at one time....carbon as you say....mine look rubbed and dirty from my pocket....I've noticed the rubber attracts junk......omo....switched to something else.

[Vdep217 70]

10 hours ago, Tunaman said:

Been reloading since 1974.  Never had a primer not go off.  No need to test them...even if there was a test.

I had a bad batch of cci last year.   Crap shoot if they went off

[DirtyDigz 1,813]

2 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

and those are the ones from your mag..they were red at one time....carbon as you say....mine look rubbed and dirty from my pocket....I've noticed the rubber attracts junk......omo....switched to something else.

Not one feeding/chambering hangup in all the times they've been handled and re-chambered.

I WILL fire these off on my next range trip and report back.

[Mr.Stu 1,942]

7 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Not one feeding/chambering hangup in all the times they've been handled and re-chambered.

I WILL fire these off on my next range trip and report back.

Before you fire them, please check for bullet setback if they have been chambered multiple times.

[DirtyDigz 1,813]

2 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

Before you fire them, please check for bullet setback if they have been chambered multiple times.

Meh, if it seats, it yeets!

[bennj 215]

22 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

Bud's  https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/411555548/hornady+90235le+critical+duty+9mm+135gr+flexlock+50ct+box

I should have added you do have to qualify to purchase. They had my DD214 so no issues. Great price though!

That's a good price, but I'm not eligible. Sorta like Orwell's 1984, "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".

[GRIZ 3,369]

13 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

don't care much for these rubber tipped rounds....they attract dirt in the magazine and the rubber gets dirty, and the rubber wears / rubs if your carrying the mag in pocket.....could affect loading port delivery.....omo.

Carry your mag in a mag pouch.  

[xXxplosive 828]

thanks....

[ESB 249]

On 4/8/2024 at 1:06 PM, xXxplosive said:

anyone carrying any of the non-hollow cavity / Solid copper monolythic rounds like Underwood or Ft. Scott........checking my options.

I carry Underwood Extreme Defender for a short barrel micro .380.  Based on reviews on different ammo types for my specific gun, this was suggested as the recommended ammo as most HP will not expand in a .short barrel .380.  This gets you the penetration you need but also provides a large wound tract (compared to other options for my gun).    

https://underwoodammo.com/380-acp-68gr.-xtreme-defender-platinum-edition-solid-monolithic-hunting-self-defense-ammo/

[ESB 249]

On 4/11/2024 at 8:02 AM, DirtyDigz said:

Here's the Hornaday Critical Defense rounds I've been cycling in and out of of my G26 and G19 mags for home and PTC carry for the last ~4 years.  I unload them from the mag in so I can load FMJ's for range sessions, usually onto my bed comforter, and then put them in a dish on the dresser. 

They've fallen on the floor and rolled into the under bed dust bunnies a bunch of times.  I've carried them loaded in a mag in my pocket a bunch of times. 

I carry with a round in the chamber, so they've all been chambered a bunch of times.

Never an issue.  I don't think the rubber/polymer/whatever tip actually contacts the feed ramp, but maybe I'll do a close up video of a slow chambering to check.  The tips definitely collected carbon residue, but they're not  looking like they're packed with feeding or chambering inhibiting detritus to my eyes.

I probably should fire these off my next range trip and cycle new ones in.

I did this for about a year and a half in my EDC.  I noticed that some of them had bullet setback.  They were pushed so far back that you could not see the crimp marks anymore.  I disposed of those and then shot the rest at the range with no issues at all.  I'll probably do this once a year from now on and just buy a new box to replace them.  $25/year isn't so bad for piece of mind.  

[Tunaman 567]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:13 PM, Mr.Stu said:

Do you test every primer before seating it too? 

and a primer not going off wont cause a squib...it will cause a "click".  Unless maybe the primer only goes off partially?

[Mr.Stu 1,942]

13 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

and a primer not going off wont cause a squib...it will cause a "click".  Unless maybe the primer only goes off partially?

Fair point

[xXxplosive 828]

So what about these solid copper rounds....ie Ft. Scott, Underwood, Lehigh Defense......I'm hearin' a lot about these.......anyone.

[JohnnyB 4,345]

8 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

So what about these solid copper rounds....ie Ft. Scott, Underwood, Lehigh Defense......I'm hearin' a lot about these.......anyone.

They are not hollow points or dum dums so legal IMHO!

[xXxplosive 828]

Tim Kennedy and I like Ft. Scott.............

[GRIZ 3,369]

On 5/7/2024 at 11:06 AM, xXxplosive said:

So what about these solid copper rounds....ie Ft. Scott, Underwood, Lehigh Defense......I'm hearin' a lot about these.......anyone.

You need to research some of these solid copper rounds. Some of them have extreme penetration.

I can carry under LEOSA.  So I can carry hollowpoints.  My first choice is WW Silvertips.  The round the FBI condemned after the Miami Shootout.  I can explain my choice if anyone wants to hear it.

[xXxplosive 828]

8 hours ago, GRIZ said:

You need to research some of these solid copper rounds. Some of them have extreme penetration.

 

Ya mean more than  45acp hardball...........really.

[GRIZ 3,369]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:41 AM, xXxplosive said:

Ya mean more than  45acp hardball...........really.

Near it.  Now don't argue a few inches of penetration here.  That can vary to the testing conditions using ballistics gel.  But ballistics gel, properly used, gives a consistent standard for evaluation.

45 hardball runs about 30" of penetration.  9mm parabellum fmj runs 24-26". Not much difference.  I have seen 45 fmj hit heavy bone like a hip and not exit.  But the shot stopped the guy.  Made the bad guy fall down.  He dropped his gun in the process and offer no further resistance.  Remember, as good guys we dont shoot to kill we shoot to stop.  If you get the first shot off, miss the bad guy, and he drops his gun and surrenders that is a successful shoot. From the tests I've seen most of the 9mm copper rounds run about the same or a bit more than std fmj.  They get their penetration from their high velocity.  AFAIC I'd just as soon use fmj than pay the premium price copper rounds cost.

Remember, once you get an entry and exit wound on the bad guy anything else is wasted and dangerous.

There was a shooting by NYPD in the past few years.  IIRC the bad guy was kind of big and was coming after two NYPD officers with a knife.  Both shot him and they found bullets in the bad guys jacket.  Initially it was reported the jacket stopped the Gold Dot the NYPD officers were using.  When the boys (and girls) from forensics got done with their stuff the bullets had  penetrated the bad guy and lodged in the jacket.  Perfect performance of a SD bullet.

There was another shooting outside the Empire State Building.  The bad guy wasn't that big. NYPD shot him and there were claims bystanders were hit by the NYPD bullets.  The crew from forensics proved the bystanders were hit by fragments of the NYPD bullets that had penetrated the bad guy.  So much for all the people who claim cops can't shoot.

I bring these incidents up because I always wait "for the rest of the story" before making a judgement.

I'm not a fan of +P except in 38 special.  I carry factory wadcutters in a j frame. Ive stated my reasons why several times.  However,  if you havent seen them pm me and I'll tell you.  NATO spec pressure falls between SAAMI spec and +P.  +P in 9mm really doesn't get you much more in performance over standard 9mm rounds.

I've drifted from your question but felt my answer is applicable.

The hollowpoint law in NJ only puts bystanders at risk.

[xXxplosive 828]

Hmmm......remember the axe wielding guy in NYC a few years back when 9 innocents on the street were treated for wounds inflicted by NYPD friendly fire............so what does it prove other than "know your target and beyond"....

[GRIZ 3,369]

On 5/12/2024 at 1:05 PM, xXxplosive said:

Hmmm......remember the axe wielding guy in NYC a few years back when 9 innocents on the street were treated for wounds inflicted by NYPD friendly fire............so what does it prove other than "know your target and beyond"....

Both our memories are a bit lacking.

3 bystanders were hit by NYPD bullets and 6 were hit by fragments at the Empire State Building shooting. The bullets later were determined to have passed through the bad guy as I said. He was not a big guy.

The police fired 16 rds and 7 hit the bad guy.  Spray and pray?  I think not.  These officers fired until the threat was stopped and everyone is moving. Have you ever tried to hit a moving target whilst you're moving.  If you watch the video from where the police encounter him, the BG draws his gun from his bag, NYPD guys shoot, and the BG hit the ground is about 2 or 3 seconds.  The closest officer is maybe 12 feet or less.  The closest cover are those concrete flower pots.  If the officers chose to take cover before drawing the BG would have had a chance to shoot at least one officer.

Know your target and beyond?  Agree 100%.  However, this by the Empire State Building at 9 am during the week.  There are bystanders and traffic in every direction.  The officers had a choice of doing what they did or letting the BG shoot them with his 1911 and shoot someone else. I think they made the right choice and the same one I would have made.  The officers exercised the best option in protecting themselves and the public.

The first video is the police shooting.  The second is more detailed and gives you a lot of background information on the shooter.

One thing this shows is if NYPD had to use fmj undoubtedly more bystanders would have been wounded perhaps killed.  NJ's hollowpoint law. only creates more danger to the public.

 

 

[xXxplosive 828]

I believe I was referring to a different incident where the BG was weilding an axe.......but it was awhile back, so........then again, NJ has some specifics about Dum Dums, Rockwell hardness, metal inserts, armor piercing, etc. but nothing about solid copper bullets or specific penetration / velocity limits so it seems if the prosecutor is in a good mood the day of the trial that's where the rubber hits the road here......maybe......omo.