Raritan Police asking for Rifles

[MrP 81]

Sorry if this is a repost, and I realize it's a week old but I thought it was still interesting.

 

Link

 

RARITAN — A Police Department request that Borough Council allow officers to carry rifles in patrol cars has been put on hold until Chief Mark Ciesla delivers a report on the topic to council members.

 

“They’re doing a study and checking into that,” Councilwoman Stefanie Gara told the Messenger-Gazette. “So everything at this point is on hold.”

 

Gara is the council liaison to the Police Department,

 

“They have to do some more due diligence on that before we really explore it,” she said. “They’re letting us know what other municipalities have and what they’re using. We’re trying to get very detailed information.”

 

At least one law enforcement agency in New Jersey — the Rowan University police in Glassboro — has purchased rifles to enhance its ability to respond to on-campus “active shooter” situations. The purchases were made in 2009.

 

Chief Ciesla told Borough Council on Feb. 8 that the experts in the field are recommending the use of rifles when dealing with an active shooter instead of shotguns, which are currently carried in Raritan police cruisers.

“Trainers feel that the shotgun is not the type of weapon of choice today,” Ciesla said.

 

“It’s no longer you sit outside and wait. It’s now you go in,” he said referring to how police are instructed to handle an active shooter.

 

A shotgun fires a load of metal pellets and a rifle fires a bullet and is effective at a greater range.

 

Ciesla said his department is checking on the cost factors for trade-ins of current weapons.

 

“We’re not looking at taxpayer funds to do this,” he said. “We’re still in the exploratory stages.”

 

Gara said during the Feb. 8 Borough Council meeting, “My fear is the power behind a rifle.”

 

She also questioned whether the Somerset County SWAT team is available in situations that require the use of a rifle.

 

The SWAT team responds primarily to hostage situations, Ciesla said, while in emergencies involving an “active shooter,” local law enforcement is trained to act immediately.

 

No date was given as to when Ciesla’s report would be delivered to council.

 

The meeting must have gone something like this:

Alright guys, the experts have established that rifles are a better choice for their increased power so if any--- Yes Ms. Gara?

 

"I'm afraid of their power"

 

EXCELLENT CHOICE FOR POLICE LIASON.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Waste of money, IMHO. If you need to shoot beyond the effective range of a shotgun + slug then you should call in SWAT or snipers. You can accuratly shoot a slug pretty far...

[StephanieSeven 70]

wow.

[StephanieSeven 70]

Waste of money, IMHO. If you need to shoot beyond the effective range of a shotgun + slug then you should call in SWAT or snipers. You can accuratly shoot a slug pretty far...

Carrying rifles around here for a while.

[axeman_g 128]

Glenn

They are looking for more precision also. Shotguns are great on defense, but they want these guys to end active shooter confrontations ASAP. It can take about +20 minutes for SWAT to get tooled up. No taking on a Columbine or VaTech shooter with handguns anymore. Got no issue with this. Get them trained and get them out there.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Also take into account that raritan doesnt have its own school system, all its schools are in bridgewater which already has rifles. It is 2 square miles of houses in raritan....

 

I am not against police having rifles. I am against raritan specifically having them. Its a waste

[Babaganoosh 192]

Jackson PD has some MP5's.... mmmmm drool

[mipafox 438]

As long as the rifles are in compliance with the rules of NJs AWB with regard to civilians in NJ, I have no problem with this.

[Maksim 1,504]

Give them Mall Ninja'ed Ruger 10/22's with 100 round drums. =)

 

lol. I really think it would be funny.

 

Eh, how many rifles are needed anyway? How many LEO?

[petros600 12]

Atlantic County SWAT had MP5 for few years but now they switch to AR's (some of the members have short barrel fully auto AR's)

 

Jackson PD has some MP5's.... mmmmm drool

[kenw 293]

"I'm afraid of their power"

 

Perhaps she would be more comfortable if the PD were issued these...

 

[axeman_g 128]

Did not know now raritans specifics. Thanks glenn.

[GRIZ 3,369]

IMHO. If you need to shoot beyond the effective range of a shotgun + slug then you should call in SWAT or snipers. You can accurately shoot a slug pretty far...

 

Yes but a rifle (223/5.56 or even a pistol caliber carnine) is much easier to shoot accurately and train someone with.

 

We had MP5s, semi auto only M16s, and full auto and three round burst M4s where I used to work. I preferred the full auto M4. Better trigger and can do anything the MP5 could do. May people who wouldn't touch a shotgun were very comfortable with the semi M16s.

 

Also take into account that raritan doesnt have its own school system, all its schools are in bridgewater which already has rifles.

 

I think the patrol rifle concept has a lot of validity whether there are schools around or not. I can guarantee there would be some Raritan PD assisting Bridgewater PD if there was a serious incident there. Shooting slugs is fine but that's a big chunk of lead flying around if you miss. It doesn't take nearly as much to stop a soft or hollowpoint 223/556.

 

I'll admit I got to shoot a lot of full auto 5.56 and 9mm for free but I think the use of full auto weapons for most LE is very limited.

[Dan 177]

If you were being held hostage, would you want the police storming in with a shotguns loaded with 00, or rifles. Personally I'd feel more comfortable with the rifle, especially if the threat is hiding behind/in the vicinity of hostages.

 

Not that shotguns aren't accurate, I just don't feel they play the "precision fire" role well. Sure maybe with a rifled barrel/slugs... but if you are doing that just go with a rifle IMO.

[Jon 264]

Disgusting. This is a decision that is to be made by the Police Dept, not the GD town council. Glenn, active shooter incidents have taken place everywhere, including a strip club and a mall. I'm sure there are plenty of active shooter targets in Raritan. If the PD believes they could make use of rifles, they should be given that option.

[Glockman99 0]

Go back and look at the tapes of that North Hollywood bank robbery. All patrol cars should have a 5.56 carbine with variable scope in the 1-3x or 1-4x range. Could be a AR15 or mini-14. This could handle problems from across the room to several hundred yards out.

[GoFasters 3]

Go back and look at the tapes of that North Hollywood bank robbery. All patrol cars should have a 5.56 carbine with variable scope in the 1-3x or 1-4x range. Could be a AR15 or mini-14. This could handle problems from across the room to several hundred yards out.

 

Ditto , except in my area Colt LE6920's w/ eotechs would do the job nicely. Better for entries & clearings and you have a 1 MOA dot in the center if you need to reach out & touch someone. Due to the fact that you rarely have line of sight for 100 yards here much less several hundred yards, a variable scope wouldn't be as effective here as some of the more rural parts of the state.

 

An officer should be confident responding to jobs knowing that he is equipped to meet the threat that he may face. This confidence comes from A: Having enough gun & B: Being well trained on the gun.

[GoFasters 3]

As long as the rifles are in compliance with the rules of NJs AWB with regard to civilians in NJ, I have no problem with this.

 

I'm confused as to why LEO's would have to use rifles that are in compliance with NJ AWB with regard to civilians?

[e80hydro 120]

I'm confused as to why LEO's would have to use rifles that are in compliance with NJ AWB with regard to civilians?

 

 

I'm thinking it has something to do with this.

[Wojo 98]

Shopping malls and schools have hallways and open areas that will not allow an accurate hit from a shotgun or a pistol caliber AR. In a stress fire situation it has been proven LEO's do not think about bullet drop or to compensate for it. You need a flat shooting round that is good for 200 yards. School hallway 8-9 foot ceilings 100+ yards in some of the larger ones, shopping malls have insanely long shots if you look at some of them. How fast can you fire 10 rounds at two or three targets with a shotgun?

 

Sully from SLR15 Rifles taught our AR Armorers class. He told us of a situation where he was an active LEO in his town where a BG had staked out an officer at his home. When the cop left his home to go to work, he was shot on his front steps. The BG fled but the cop was able to call and ID the BG. They got to him as he was entering a mall and were exchanging fire from pistol caliber AR's in the parking lot at a decent standoff distance. Then he entered the mall where they finally took him out. They found his pant legs covered in lead fragments because the pistol rounds were impacting a few yards in front of him and then splattering him with lead. In the heat of the battle the guys with pistols and AR pistol's never compensated enough for drop. As trained, they aimed for center of mass. A 5.56 round finally took him down in the mall.

[Drew 4]

I have been threw Raritan thousands of times and although its not a great area its not that bad either. With that being said however I don't have a problem with the Raritan police having rifles. It cant hurt to be prepared and the cost would not be prohibitively exorbitant.

[Dan 177]

Shopping malls and schools have hallways and open areas that will not allow an accurate hit from a shotgun or a pistol caliber AR. In a stress fire situation it has been proven LEO's do not think about bullet drop or to compensate for it. You need a flat shooting round that is good for 200 yards. School hallway 8-9 foot ceilings 100+ yards in some of the larger ones, shopping malls have insanely long shots if you look at some of them. How fast can you fire 10 rounds at two or three targets with a shotgun?

 

Sully from SLR15 Rifles taught our AR Armorers class. He told us of a situation where he was an active LEO in his town where a BG had staked out an officer at his home. When the cop left his home to go to work, he was shot on his front steps. The BG fled but the cop was able to call and ID the BG. They got to him as he was entering a mall and were exchanging fire from pistol caliber AR's in the parking lot at a decent standoff distance. Then he entered the mall where they finally took him out. They found his pant legs covered in lead fragments because the pistol rounds were impacting a few yards in front of him and then splattering him with lead. In the heat of the battle the guys with pistols and AR pistol's never compensated enough for drop. As trained, they aimed for center of mass. A 5.56 round finally took him down in the mall.

 

Great example story. Pistol caliber carbines are generally accepted to be 100 yard maximum effectiveness range before you have to start drastically accounting for bullet drop, and cope with lot of energy loss. The only place I see for pistol carbines would be with a SWAT type weapon for room to room. Otherwise , IMO handgun and 5.56 rifle would be the most versatile and effective setup for a cop.

 

Battlesight Maximum Point Blank range is easy to configure for a 5.56 rifle to give very accurate shots out to 250 yards with zero thought of trajectory using the 50-225 improved battlesight setup. For a 9mm pistol caliber carbine, the equivalent configuration is good for only out to 100.

 

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=2465

http://web.archive.org/web/20071106054651/groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/9mmzero.msnw

 

Why are politicians making these decisions? They have no leg to stand on as I'm sure they don't understand any of this.

 

Add to that how sad it is that we now have to think about trajectories in regards to long school hallways.

[Scottcba1 8]

Jackson PD has some MP5's.... mmmmm drool

 

I can count on one hand the JPD officers that I feel comfortable holding that weapon out of their 79 current employees and the Chief is NOT one of them. The MP5's are only taken out for certain situations and a while back an officer got suspended when he decided rather then return it back to HQ he would drive around during his shift with it...guess it made him feel cool. Whats even worse is that it took almost the whole shift before any supervisors realized it!! Its like the blind leading the blind over there....

 

Anyone see the terrible report JPD got when they had a mock terrorist threat at Six Flags? The FBI and other federal agencies were there to see how well an attack could be handled. Lets just say I hope nothing major happens at Six Flags.

 

Sorry for rambling on.....If Raritan PD feels they need the rifles and can obtain them at no cost to the public, then I agree with training the officers and getting them.

 

-Scott

[BCeagle 12]

Jackson PD has some MP5's.... mmmmm drool

 

 

Thats not fair. That is the one firearm I would buy if I could own anything. #2 would probably be an M60 so I have serious issues. I will admit neither are for hunting or self defense (I dont plan on moving to Camden) but just to be ready when the zombies come.

[BCeagle 12]

I can count on one hand the JPD officers that I feel comfortable holding that weapon out of their 79 current employees and the Chief is NOT one of them. The MP5's are only taken out for certain situations and a while back an officer got suspended when he decided rather then return it back to HQ he would drive around during his shift with it...guess it made him feel cool. Whats even worse is that it took almost the whole shift before any supervisors realized it!! Its like the blind leading the blind over there....

 

Anyone see the terrible report JPD got when they had a mock terrorist threat at Six Flags? The FBI and other federal agencies were there to see how well an attack could be handled. Lets just say I hope nothing major happens at Six Flags.

 

Sorry for rambling on.....If Raritan PD feels they need the rifles and can obtain them at no cost to the public, then I agree with training the officers and getting them.

 

-Scott

 

 

I was wondering why any PD would need one but I guess 6 Flags would be the reason.

[GRIZ 3,369]

In a stress fire situation it has been proven LEO's do not think about bullet drop or to compensate for it. You need a flat shooting round that is good for 200 yards.

 

Well, yes and no. This figure is about 5 or 6 years old but way back then the average range of shots taken by police "snipers" was about 77 yards. Well within the scheme of things with a pistol caliber carbine. However, I do think a 223/5.56 is a safer round to use as the round tends to disperse it's energy when it hits some hard and is a much better stopper when you hit the target.

 

were exchanging fire from pistol caliber AR's in the parking lot at a decent standoff distance.

 

In the heat of the battle the guys with pistols and AR pistol's never compensated enough for drop. As trained, they aimed for center of mass. A 5.56 round finally took him down in the mall.

 

It's hard to comment on this without knowing what caliber and what the range was with the bullets striking yards in front of the BG. I think this was a training problem. I think the reason was they probably weren't taught to compensate for bullet drop at all.

 

A 9mm 125 FMJ, 1300 fps zeroed for 100 yds is about 10" low at 150 yds and 20" low at 175 yds. If the guy was standing erect (?) this would mean a center mass aim would hit him in the thigh or groin at 175. At 200 yd the drop would be about 30". I wouldn't have called that a decent standoff distance, I'd call it out of practical range.

 

You can't fault someone for not doing something they weren't trained for.

[tommy3rd 132]

I was wondering why any PD would need one but I guess 6 Flags would be the reason.

i hate to say this, but if any of our members here goes nuts, do you know how much firepower a PD would need to go against him/her?

[halbautomatisch 60]

Thats not fair. That is the one firearm I would buy if I could own anything. #2 would probably be an M60 so I have serious issues. I will admit neither are for hunting or self defense (I dont plan on moving to Camden) but just to be ready when the zombies come.

What issues? The only issue I see is figuring out how to come up with the $60,000. it would take to buy them.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

My only issue with this is that we are treating our Police officers as specially trained units like swat. I'm all for them having rifles as a means of back up and protection, but in the event of a situation a rifle would really be needed i fail to see how your typical police officer is the top candidate to take action with in the situation. Just like noted above the FBI gave the PD a bad rating based on the performance at 6 flags, well that's what happens when you expect your foot patrol to take care of a situation that requires highly coordinated groups of individuals... ya know like SWAT.

Personally, i would rather see them spend the money on training there officers better.. i would take a well trained officer with a hand gun over one with a rifle and has no idea of how to use it in a tactical situation.

[Jon 264]

My only issue with this is that we are treating our Police officers as specially trained units like swat. I'm all for them having rifles as a means of back up and protection, but in the event of a situation a rifle would really be needed i fail to see how your typical police officer is the top candidate to take action with in the situation. Just like noted above the FBI gave the PD a bad rating based on the performance at 6 flags, well that's what happens when you expect your foot patrol to take care of a situation that requires highly coordinated groups of individuals... ya know like SWAT.

 

SWAT takes a long time to mobilize and in the event of an Active Shooter, every minute that passes results in more dead bodies. "Regular" Patrol Officers need to be able to move in immediately with enough firepower to stop the threat ASAP.