Why you do not shoot Lead in a Glock

[Maksim 1,504]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120569&st=0

 

Glock Kaboom.

[MidwestPX 172]

You can shoot lead through a Glock but you must routinely clean it. I put 230gr hardcast through my 10mm without issue but I only shoot 100 rounds at a time and clean it after each session.

[SSlav 14]

Everyone knows that you should not shoot lead through polygonal barrels. But it seems that there is always someone who knows better. DON'T DO IT. There is no safe way to do it. The amount of leading depends on both the composition of the lead used in the casting and the gunpowder used. The composition of the alloy used in casting is not guaranteed by the manufacturer. Even if they are extremely precise with their additives there is a chance that they make a mistake. You can end up with bullets of different hardness coming out of the same box. Or a re-loader (who could be you) switched from one gunpowder to a hotter one (do you pay attention to how hot your powder burns when you select it for use?). And all of the sudden the amount of leading that was building up after 100 rounds is now building up after only 75 or 50 or who knows how few.

 

An aftermarket Glock barrel from LWD is about $100. If you must shoot lead (which IMHO is a bad idea in any barrel or firearm) spend $100 and shoot to your heart's content.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

If you must shoot lead (which IMHO is a bad idea in any barrel or firearm)

 

 

I'm not going to get into the whole "lead in a Glock" issue, but just couldn't let the above statement pass unchallenged. I know it is prefaced with "IMHO", but his opinion is obviously a misinformed one.

 

Lead bullets were all that were available for years. They cause less wear on barrels; They can be made in better shapes like SWC's (sharp shoulders that cut nice clean holes) or Keith type bullets (large driving band for outstanding accuracy along with the aforementioned sharp shoulder). They are cost-effective. They can be "made" by the shooter themselves or purchased. The only possible objection that could be raised about cast bullets (other than the polygonal issue, which I said I won't address), is from a health standpoint, which only comes into play if you are casting in an improper environment or shooting in an indoor, poorly ventilated range. To say that shooting lead bullets in any barrel is a bad idea is just specious. Not to hijack this thread, but, I'd like to hear why he thinks this is so.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Old School 611]

You can shoot lead through a Glock but you must routinely clean it. I put 230gr hardcast through my 10mm without issue but I only shoot 100 rounds at a time and clean it after each session.

 

 

 

NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!

[JonF 79]

My question is, why are glock polygonal barrels succeptible to leading whereas traditional grooved rifle barrels not? What is it about the polygonal rifling that is conducive to this condition?

[Old School 611]

My question is, why are glock polygonal barrels succeptible to leading whereas traditional grooved rifle barrels not? What is it about the polygonal rifling that is conducive to this condition?

 

My understanding, and I don't know if I'm correct, is that because there are no sharp edges to the rifling the lead bullet strips and leaves lead in the first few inches of the bore as it leaves the chamber.

 

Pizza Bob what is your take on this?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Pizza Bob what is your take on this?

 

 

Don't know enough about polygonal rifling to make an intelligent guess. What you said sounds reasonable.

[Maksim 1,504]

That is exactly what happened, read the entire thread.

 

Here is a pic, you can clearly see the leading in the first few inches.

 

And this was only a few rounds since cleaning.

 

Shooting lead down a Glock/Hk/Polygonal rifling is like riding a motorcycle... its not about If, its about when.

[Parker 213]

I never had an issue with shooting lead, provided I used some common sense. Care and due diligence needs to be adhered to by the shooter, both in reloading practices and firearm maintenance/cleaning. I've shot lead in my octagonal barreled G21 since I've owned it (1993) and in a USP45 with no adverse effects. Yes, some lead bullets lead more than others while others shoot very well. And I've never pushed the velocities high because of such. Cost was always a concern for me and lead was so much cheaper. I do have a "lead only" barrel for the G21, but my only complaint is I find it annoying to swap because the sights need to be adjusted slightly as the factory and after market barrel shoot to different points of impact with the same sight picture. Only issues I've ever had with the G21 was an extractor that cracked while shooting in a plate match using factory hardball many years ago. The gun continued to fire and eject, although ejections were a bit lazy, not robust. I was curious about the lazy ejections and then discovered that half the extractor had sheared off when I had the pistol apart for cleaning that night.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Everyone knows that you should not shoot lead through polygonal barrels.

 

I didn't know that when I bought my Glock.

[Maksim 1,504]

I never had an issue with shooting lead, provided I used some common sense. Care and due diligence needs to be adhered to by the shooter, both in reloading practices and firearm maintenance/cleaning. I've shot lead in my octagonal barreled G21 since I've owned it (1993) and in a USP45 with no adverse effects. Yes, some lead bullets lead more than others while others shoot very well. And I've never pushed the velocities high because of such. Cost was always a concern for me and lead was so much cheaper. I do have a "lead only" barrel for the G21, but my only complaint is I find it annoying to swap because the sights need to be adjusted slightly as the factory and after market barrel shoot to different points of impact with the same sight picture. Only issues I've ever had with the G21 was an extractor that cracked while shooting in a plate match using factory hardball many years ago. The gun continued to fire and eject, although ejections were a bit lazy, not robust. I was curious about the lazy ejections and then discovered that half the extractor had sheared off when I had the pistol apart for cleaning that night.

 

I think where the problem is, and as experienced by the original poster on the other forum, he was careful too. shot plenty of rounds, cleaned. all it takes is one round slightly out of wack to go bad before the kaboom. I get that lead is cheaper, but... why take an unnecessary risk?

[Parker 213]

why take an unnecessary risk?

I had to drive to Long Island yesterday afternoon for a wake. I asked myself this EXACT same question as I was traveling on the Cross Bronx Expressway. Somehow, the CBE seemed a more dangerous risk to me. The only saving grace was the Yanks were up in Boston, and not home!

 

Great quote about the CBE;

 

"If you have ever wondered if you're in Hell, then you are experiencing a rather normal spiritual quandary that you share with many. If however, you know without the shadow of a doubt that you are in Hell, then you must be on the Cross Bronx Expressway!" - Jeff Saltzman

[BigHayden 77]

http://pbblocker.com/

 

I listen to Cope's podcast and, although he's totally a Glock fanboy, he seems to know what he's talking about. Pb Blocker is his creation and he developed it to shoot lead ammo in stock Glock barrels.

 

I'm not affiliated with anyone/anything to do with Cope Reynolds, SWSA, or Pb Blocker, but I figured it was worth mentioning to everyone.

[SSlav 14]

I'm not going to get into the whole "lead in a Glock" issue, but just couldn't let the above statement pass unchallenged. I know it is prefaced with "IMHO", but his opinion is obviously a Not to hijack this thread, but, I'd like to hear why he thinks this is so.

 

Lead is dirty. It fouls your gun a lot more than jacketed bullets. Leading is a pain in the a** to clean out from your barrel. Chemicals that make the process easier invariably are nasty stuff that is also bad for your health. Lead vapors are nasty and good ventilation only reduces the exposure - it does not eliminate it. And finally there is no reason for it. Lead may have been the only thing that was available for a long time but that is not the case anymore. For just a penny a round or so you can shoot molly coated bullets that have all the advantages of shape that lead has and are a lot cleaner.

 

But that is my opinion, you do what you think is best for you.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Leading is a pain in the a** to clean out from your barrel.

 

You are correct, leading is a PITA to clean out of a barrel - but the impression that you give is that: Use of lead bullets always = leading. That is just not the case. How much leading (if any) you get is dependent on the alloy used to cast the bullets, the lube used, and the velocity at which it is driven. Lead bullets are eaiser on barrels (less wear), generally more accurate at handgun ranges (better obturation) and cheaper than you state (savings > $.01 per bullet).

 

I have a .44 Special that has been fed nothing but 250 gr LSWC or Keith style lead bullets over 7.5 grs of Unique (about 850 - 900 fps) - literally thousands of them down the pipe, and I have never had to do anything special when cleaning it, because there is no leading - a little Hoppe's #9 and we were always good to go.

 

I also had a Gold Cup that I shot IPSC with - it was loaded with 200 gr H&G 68 cast bullets loaded to exceed major power factor. Our club held a practice night every week and we were affiliated with three other clubs, so there was a match every weekend. Between the practices and the matches that gun saw 800 to 1000 rounds a month for the year and half that I shot it. I would shoot it until the slide wouldn't lock back when empty - which was usually at 1500 - 2000 rounds. The bulk of the grime, gumming up the works, was bullet lube and powder residue - easily cleaned. Never did anything special for leading with that gun either.

 

If you are going to shoot cast bullets and try to drive them at magnum velocities, yes, you will probably experience leading. If you are looking for an inexpensive method to increase the number of rounds per dollar spent, it is hard to beat cast bullets.

 

 

Lead vapors are nasty and good ventilation only reduces the exposure - it does not eliminate it.

 

Of the four matches per month we shot, two were indoors and two were out. All practice sessions were indoors. Even with the ventilation systems of 20+ years ago, lead was never a problem. I had the lead level in my blood monitored the whole time I was shooting and while it was slightly above normal, it never posed a threat, nor did it increase beyond a certain point. Better ventilation systems today mean even less risk.

 

And finally there is no reason for it. Lead may have been the only thing that was available for a long time but that is not the case anymore.

 

It's not like jacketed bullets weren't available to us. When I said that is all there was I was speaking of the 1800's. IPSC in the mid-80's was predominately a game for .45 ACP's and everybody shot cast bullets (unless they were good enough to get a bullet sponsor). It wasn't until the whole "try to make major with a minor caliber" philosophy entered the game that there was a need for jacketed bullets. I also belong to the large, slow moving bullet school of thought with calibers that begin with "4" dominating my meager collection. Cast bullets are more suitable for these calibers than for the "small bullet, driven quickly" school. Lead is a great alternative for those that want to shoot more for less. It's as simple as that. Knowing the alloy or hardness, loading to suitable velocities and shooting with good ventilation precludes any problems. But if you want to pay more and shoot less, that's fine with me, you do what you think is best.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[SSlav 14]

For 230 gr. .45 RN

 

Meister Bullets (Hard Cast Lead) $125/1000 - Shipped

Magnus Bullets (Hard Cast Lead) $118/1000 + Shipping

 

These were the first two that came up in a search. Are these the best prices, probably not. I assume you could probably find something a little cheaper - say $100/1000 or $95/1000?

 

Black Bullet International (Molly Coated) $115/1000 - Shipped

 

Looks like in the absolute worst case you are looking at $0.02 per bullet difference. And possibly no difference at all.

 

 

But ...

 

 

:thsmiley_deadhorse: :thsmiley_deadhorse:

[djg0770 481]

.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

OK, this is my last post on this topic (I can hear the applause from here). I like to think of myself as being open minded and can be swayed by logical opposition. I have just spent the last hour and a half all over the Internet researching moly (MoS₂) coated lead bullets.

 

The conclusion that I reached is that, as far as I'm concerned, moly coated bullets couls $.05 cheaper than lead cast and I still wouldn't use them. Too much diversity with how the coating is applied, what grade of MoS₂ is used. What the effects are on the gun - what the long term effects are. For every positive story there were three negatives, but it was the technical articles that held more sway over my opinion. Interesting that these were suggested as a way to reduce leading - a lot of what I read indicated that MoS₂ fouling is harder to remove than lead. Also, that the whole barrel has to be coated with moly (30-40 shots according to Midway) until accuracy starts to come back. A lot of stories indicated that if your barrel is not 100% clean and shiny before the initial use of moly coated bullets, the leading will actually be worse. Also, the use of moly-coated bullets will actually decrease velocity for a given load - something that competitive shooters trying to make major should be aware of - you may actually have to increase the amount of powder to unsafe levels in order to achieve the same velocity as plain lead bullets. Or how about the chemical changes that take place with MoS₂ and extreme heat (as would be found with cartridge ignition) it can actually create H₂SO₄ - that's sulfuric acid for those of you that are chemically challenged.

 

Yes, lead bullets or balls have been with us for centuries, because they work. Too many unknowns, too many different production methods, too many varied opinions on moly-coated bullets for my guns to ever see them. I'll stick with what is known and what works. That's the beauty of a free society - we have a choice, I've made mine and you've made yours, as long as we're both happy with those choices, our discourse is at an end. Good luck.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[KpdPipes 388]

That is exactly what happened, read the entire thread.

 

Here is a pic, you can clearly see the leading in the first few inches.

 

And this was only a few rounds since cleaning.

 

Shooting lead down a Glock/Hk/Polygonal rifling is like riding a motorcycle... its not about If, its about when.

 

 

There was a guy on Sunday at the Match who's son was shooting a G-19 using lead bullets. I mentioned something, as did a couple of other people, i dont know if he listened or not. Yeah lead is Cheaper, but for a couple cents more you can get Plated bullets and remove the problem altogether. Berry, Ranier, Bullet Works, there's a bunch of sources and prices arent that bad if you're buying Bulk.

[Babaganoosh 192]

There was a guy on Sunday at the Match who's son was shooting a G-19 using lead bullets. I mentioned something, as did a couple of other people, i dont know if he listened or not. Yeah lead is Cheaper, but for a couple cents more you can get Plated bullets and remove the problem altogether. Berry, Ranier, Bullet Works, there's a bunch of sources and prices arent that bad if you're buying Bulk.

 

That was the kid who was shooting with the thigh holster. They were in my squad. I heard a few people mention it but never heard his response. They didn't stop shooting it though.

 

I'm pretty sure you were the dude with the green truck who parked next to my cousin and I. You brought what seemed like an uninterested wife with you? hahah. New shooter as well right?

[SSlav 14]

Yes, lead bullets or balls have been with us for centuries, because they work. Too many unknowns, too many different production methods, too many varied opinions on moly-coated bullets for my guns to ever see them. I'll stick with what is known and what works.

Pizza Bob

 

 

Lots of things changed since the 80s, Bob. Unless you are shooting 9mm Major, there is no longer any need to walk the fine line on the edge of having your gun explode because of a few FPS. You go to an IPSC match and you will see jacketed bullets and molly bullets but you will not see much bare lead at all. I can dredge out a ton of opinions on every subject on the internet. But the simple fact is that molly coated bullets work. They work great for IPSC. Bullseye guys still stick with lead but I see a lot of them shooting in respirators. So yeah, you are right it is a free country. You are welcome to your lead.

[KpdPipes 388]

That was the kid who was shooting with the thigh holster. They were in my squad. I heard a few people mention it but never heard his response. They didn't stop shooting it though.

 

I'm pretty sure you were the dude with the green truck who parked next to my cousin and I. You brought what seemed like an uninterested wife with you? hahah. New shooter as well right?

Did they at least stop to run patches through it now and then??? Normally I try to MYOB, but i'd hate to see someone get hurt through ignorance of the possibility.

 

Gray Ram Pickup with a Cap, but yes my Wife spent most of the day in the truck. We parked pretty much in the middle. I had a White truck on one side, and a smaller black P/U on the other with another new shooter who ended up squadded with me.

[Babaganoosh 192]

No they didn't run any patches thru. I mind my own business too unless it's something really dumb like that.

 

We were in the white pickup. You asked my cousin a few questions. Too bad I didn't know it was you, would have said what's up.