Can gun games get you killed?

[Shane45 807]

A discussion in another thread lead down the path of this discusion. I have ALWAYS believed theres a corellation between subconscious stimulus – response patterns that you WILL develop in the repetition of competitions like USPSA/3gun and what the pre programmed responce will be under the stress induced responce of a real life incident. As a result I changed what gun games I will shoot because I dont want to be in the habit of doing things like standing in the open, reloading outside of cover, or using equipment that is not real useful outside of the game its self. This is NOT to impeach gun games at all. Its simply a discussion on the topic. My original origins in the shooting sports are from NRA Action Pistol and IPSC. But I switched to things like IDPA and Practical Multigun to stop instilling habits I dont want to ingrain in myself. I got more penalties for not getting behind cover in IDPA than actual targets engaged! But for those that like to race guns, I love that you do and I love to watch.

 

Although not specifically gun games this article illustrates the point of what you do ...is what you will do.

 

http://www.killology.com/on_combat_ch2.htm

 

 

But why are gamers employed to teach you say? What needs to be understand is that the Rob leathem's, JJ Racazza's, Todd Jarret's of the world who obtained their fame in Gun Games but are employed to train real deal people is that these people are at a level where they litteraly have a mental switch in their head that they can switch between venues because they do ALL OF IT so much. The other thing to know is that who they train only goes so high. There IS a next level of training that frankly, to get there as a trainer you need credentials of real life protracted fire fights or your not invited.

[Vlad G 345]

I'll bite. DO you have an example where someone got killed because of their gun game mindset?

[Shane45 807]

Vlad would it make you feel better if I took the 4 letter word game out of it and changed it to bad habits? Did you even read the article? You really dont see the correlation? So anyone that shoots USPSA and gets shot standing out in the open, can I call that an example?

[Anselmo 87]

How likely are you to be in a real life protracted fire fight? If you are LEO or military I could understand your concern.

[Shane45 807]

NJ2A, I think your misreading it. Being in a protracted fight is not the concern, unless you happen to have been in Katrina or the LA riots. Protracted firefight experience was a req for being an instructor in certain circles.

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad would it make you feel better if I took the 4 letter word game out of it and changed it to bad habits? Did you even read the article? You really dont see the correlation? So anyone that shoots USPSA and gets shot standing out in the open, can I call that an example?

 

 

Yup, I've read it very carefully. Do you have an example of someone who used idiotic tactics and got killed because thats what they did in USPSA or whatever other gun game, not a video game?

 

BTW for every study that says violent video games create killers, there is one that says they don't. Given the widespread use of video games you'd think you would see a lot more mass murders, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who was teenage mass murder that would have not come in contact with video games even accidentally.

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, this ones for you buddy:

 

How does competitive shooting relate to the kind of skills necessary for law enforcement and personal defense?

 

"You have to learn the distinctive difference between competitive shooting and real world tactical shooting," "There are some bad habits you can develop by shooting a lot of tournaments. However, if you focus on the fundamentals--weapons handling, weapons manipulation and marksmanship--you are in a much higher echelon." .....JJ Racaza

[Vlad G 345]

Interesting. I think some a few people on this forum have gone through my "welcome to action shooting, don't get shot" speech I give to new shooters. One of things I mention almost every time is "This is not training, this will not make you an elite operator, seek professional training if that is what you are after". After that I mention "What this will however teach you is safe weapon manipulation, fast and accurate shooting, and knowing what you can and can not do"

 

Interesting that the second part of JJ's line is "However, if you focus on the fundamentals--weapons handling, weapons manipulation and marksmanship--you are in a much higher echelon" almost identical to what I tell people.

 

But that's not really what I asked, do you have an example of "gun games will get you killed"?

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, why do you refuse to see the correlation between what you do most, you will do when you go on autopilot... This is taught at just about every training facility in the country yet you doubt it. that defies logic. Unless of course you know something the entire weapons training community doesnt.

[bbk 188]

I don't personally have interaction with gamers or gun gaming, so, I can't say I have empirical data that suggests that being a pure gamer will get somebody killed.

 

But studies do indicate that participating in one type of action versus another can result in a person developing bad habits. In my training, with mil, it was called "muscle memory." I believe the other term for it is auxiliary memory. Muscle/auxiliary memory focuses on the idea that in a high stress situation, a person will revert to what they have done through repetition. This is the reason why early learning, notably in grade school, focused on repetition-- why certain fields of study are learned not through critical thinking, but [boring] repetition. The same applies to why, at least in the Army, rifles are issued the second day of BCT, and that there are always a few hours in the day where IET Soldiers will lay in the prone and dry fire (sometimes while having a full canteen hanging off the front of the barrel). The concept, in a way, is based on the "10000 hour" rule (studies show that it takes roughly 10000 hours to truly master something).

 

Its the same reason why when troops are not down range, they spend that time training, training, training, training, and... training. Not so much to keep the proverbial knife sharp, but to truly sear the meticulous movements and reactions into one's brain. It can also explain why its so difficult for troops to come back to civilian life, or why some with PTSD act a certain way (as they have a learned response to deal with stress/fear).

 

Now, as a said, I don't have legit gaming experience. I don't know the ups and downs of IDPA or IPSC or practical multi-gun. Truth is, as I've discussed with others, I don't involve myself in them because I don't want to confuse my brain which is already wired to respond a certain way. I have done some amateur gun-gaming, and, probably as more of a sympathetic response, I started mimicking actions by people who were gamers or were gaming said course. I found myself tripping on what I wanted to do (count rounds) compared to what my body was telling me to do (find cover). I also don't want to confuse myself by gaming with rules (aside from the safety ones of course) because let's be honest-- surviving is more than winning.

 

Like Shane, I have nothing against gun-gaming, as I too find it wildly entertaining (anybody hear of Top Shot? /sarcasm!). There are things that have been implemented from the competitive shooting realm into the tactical, and vice versa-- some of which I implement myself (Costa-style of shooting, brakes, variable power scopes [still working on this one]); and I'm sure there will be many more as shooting evolves.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

It can be hard to break this down psychologically. Unless your being dumped into a threatening situation there really isnt a way to tell how you will respond. Typically, we undergo a fight or flight response, which is tied into the adrenal part of your body. In competition or games, it's a matter of overcoming the flight response and focusing.. In a threatening situation it is much harder to control your actions, and naturally the body will want to flight or hide. Standing out in the open goes against ever response your body should exhibit. People who practice strategy are usually the ones better off, it's more about assessing your situation and your surroundings then probably anything. Someone who is taught to take cover behind the first thing they see might end up behind something like a cardboard box for example.

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, weapons handling is not in question. I KNOW I owe my speed with a 1911 to my time in IPSC. thats not what we are talking about here. So lets clarify, your line of questions gives the impression that you dont believe its a concern. But I dont want to debate on assumptions, id rather hear you say thats your stated position because it looks like your back peddling a little bit.

 

Jack, thats a cover/concealment topic and actually something addressed at most schools and some types of competition.

[Shane45 807]

I just wanted to add this, if I had to get dropped in the middle of beruit, Id rather have someone that shoots any gun game with me because they have weapons handling experience and some handling weapons under stress indoc over someone that has just shot on a static square range. Id rather have an IDPA competitor/Practical multigun over USPSA/3Gun. Id rather have Polite society over IDPA. Id ratehr have someone thats been to a number of schools over a competitor. Id rather have someone that shoots IDPA/Polite society/prac multigun AND does schools over all afformentioned.

[Tosser 61]

I don't personally have interaction with gamers or gun gaming, so, I can't say I have empirical data that suggests that being a pure gamer will get somebody killed.

 

But studies do indicate that participating in one type of action versus another can result in a person developing bad habits. In my training, with mil, it was called "muscle memory." I believe the other term for it is auxiliary memory. Muscle/auxiliary memory focuses on the idea that in a high stress situation, a person will revert to what they have done through repetition. This is the reason why early learning, notably in grade school, focused on repetition-- why certain fields of study are learned not through critical thinking, but [boring] repetition. The same applies to why, at least in the Army, rifles are issued the second day of BCT, and that there are always a few hours in the day where IET Soldiers will lay in the prone and dry fire (sometimes while having a full canteen hanging off the front of the barrel). The concept, in a way, is based on the "10000 hour" rule (studies show that it takes roughly 10000 hours to truly master something).

 

Its the same reason why when troops are not down range, they spend that time training, training, training, training, and... training. Not so much to keep the proverbial knife sharp, but to truly sear the meticulous movements and reactions into one's brain. It can also explain why its so difficult for troops to come back to civilian life, or why some with PTSD act a certain way (as they have a learned response to deal with stress/fear).

 

Now, as a said, I don't have legit gaming experience. I don't know the ups and downs of IDPA or IPSC or practical multi-gun. Truth is, as I've discussed with others, I don't involve myself in them because I don't want to confuse my brain which is already wired to respond a certain way. I have done some amateur gun-gaming, and, probably as more of a sympathetic response, I started mimicking actions by people who were gamers or were gaming said course. I found myself tripping on what I wanted to do (count rounds) compared to what my body was telling me to do (find cover). I also don't want to confuse myself by gaming with rules (aside from the safety ones of course) because let's be honest-- surviving is more than winning.

 

Like Shane, I have nothing against gun-gaming, as I too find it wildly entertaining (anybody hear of Top Shot? /sarcasm!). There are things that have been implemented from the competitive shooting realm into the tactical, and vice versa-- some of which I implement myself (Costa-style of shooting, brakes, variable power scopes [still working on this one]); and I'm sure there will be many more as shooting evolves.

 

 

Excellent response!

[Tosser 61]

The things done in competitions are tactically unsound and not safe for use on a battlefield/gunfight.

 

 

There are so many variables involved in a gun fight why deal with the hypothetical and deal with facts.

 

 

You shoot XYZ type of matches following xyz rules and common practices. Now go use those techniques/rules/common practices in a Force on Force evolution and you'll see the error in those ways.

 

 

When under stress you will revert to your training. If your training is to do X then you will do X. If X is what is done at a USPSA match then that is what you WILL do when the situation gets hairy.

 

 

Vlad, I have an airsoft g19 and some paintball masks, access to a "shoot house" and some free time. If you want to come down I will show you how it will get you killed with airsoft.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Vlad, weapons handling is not in question. I KNOW I owe my speed with a 1911 to my time in IPSC. thats not what we are talking about here. So lets clarify, your line of questions gives the impression that you dont believe its a concern. But I dont want to debate on assumptions, id rather hear you say thats your stated position because it looks like your back peddling a little bit.

 

Jack, thats a cover/concealment topic and actually something addressed at most schools and some types of competition.

But my point was that how often do people really practice running to cover from gun fire? or having a live gun pointed at them? Not much can prepare you for such a situation, and sometimes people do very illogical things when under such stress. Part of keeping yourself under control is relaxing and not letting your body enter a state of hyper anxiety. Adrenalin is good and can help you focus, but to much the body more or less starts to react on its own.

[djg0770 481]

Just take the "gun game" out of it.

 

Consider instead how many idiots there are on the road during the first snow storm the area experiences? Have they never seen snow before? - NO. Do they "know" how to drive in the snow? - Yes - but it takes time for it to come back to them. By the 3rd snow storm, the incidents of accidents and idiots drops dramatically. (I think I should do a research paper on that....)

 

My dad took me out as a teenager to the local elementary school parking lot in the snow, I learned how to start a skid, how to pull out of a skid, what the limits of my vehicle were, and I learned it at a young enough age that it stuck with me. Yes - doing donuts in the snow with dad was more than just fun - it taught me skills.

 

Skills require honing and as humans, we need to be careful about repeating actions which are not realistic situations. If for instance, I pulled out of a skid and came to a complete stop each and every time - what do you think would happen if I skidded on the Parkway???

[Shane45 807]

Jack just I dont know your level of experience so dont take offence if I am telling you stuff you already know. But for example in USPSA the object is really speed. And as such there is NO consideration for cover. Your pretty much always shooting in the open, reloading in the open etc etc. Now Im not saying IDPA is perfect because its not. BUT, you always engage from cover when available. You get a penalty if you dont. You cant leave cover with an empty weapon. You will get a penalty if you do. etc etc. The rule set are more in line with tactics that you would want to use.

 

Some on this board know Gene whom was a trainer from an org that everyone knows. He's LE and does EP. Ever watch him shoot a glock match? He still employs cover etc etc because he does not want to develop bad habits for obvious reasons.

[Vlad G 345]

Oh I ABSOLUTELY believe it is a concern which I why I tell people "This is a game, don't be an idiot and charge 12 baddies with a handgun through a door". The problem I have is that I've repeatedly heard "Gun games will get you killed" but so far no one has shown me actual example. The statement, in the way I often hear it, implies that gun games are harmful, instead of "not training". So far no one has shown me an example where gun games, by themselves and in the absence of other context, have gotten any one killed.

 

I'll offer you another perspective. The average civilian shooter mostly shoots at bullseyes from behind a bench. The average civilian shooter does not go and train at EAG, Magpul, Vickers or Viking Tactical, etc. The first time we shoot them in competition they have never holstered a hot gun, have no familiarity with safe fire arm handling, reloading their gun when they still have a round the chamber, etc. The single most common thing I see new shooters do is drop a magazine, insert a fresh one and rack out a live round out of the chamber, over and over gain, because every time they've loaded a gun on the firing line they started with an empty gun. I see new shooters who don't know how to operate the safety on their guns, don't know how not point it at their own feet or hands. I've seen shooters run around with a handgun gun pointing up in the air in a stance we call "The Full Sabrina" (think Charlies Angels). I've also seen police officers "unload" their shotguns by shooting the ground with a load of buckshot 12 inches from my foot and freeze not knowing what the hell they did. I fully understand bad habits, and muscle memory, because I see it every weekend.

 

Given that most of these folks will never attend a formal "tactical" training school (and if they all tried, they couldn't because there aren't enough such schools), do you honestly believe that they will be better served by being scared by lines such as "Gun games will get you killed on the street" instead of actually learning how to operate their firearms, do so safely, be able to accurately and quickly hit what they aim at, etc? From where I'm standing, I much rather they stop reading AR15 or Glocktalk where experts (some real, some not) tell them to avoid games unless they want to die when SHTF, and get their a** to a gun game and learn to actually use the firearms they own instead of polishing them to a fine shine in they comfort of their own basement while maintaining an illusion of safety. I rather they learn SOME bad tactical habits then maintain their all around bad firearm handling habits. This is isn't and altogether altruistic wish, I admit. Some of them might be neighbors and I rather not get shot through a wall because they woke up scared when the cat knocked over a vase.

 

I have never claimed and I will never claimed that gun games are a substitute for formal training, if you believe you need it. I am also rather dubious of the statement that "Gun games will get you killed". As I've mentioned elsewhere MOST of the time I've heard that line from people who participated in ONE match, got their a** handed to them, and decided to never come back. Sadly, a lot of those folks for police officers who came in full of swagger and couldn't hit a target. Before you jump down my throat, there are a good number of excellent competitive shooters who are police, military, etc so I'm not trying to paint such folks with a bad brush. Some were good on day one, some where 20 years veterans and SWAT team trainers who have flat out told me "I thought I knew how to shoot, until I've started shooting in competition"

 

So to sum up, competition shooting is NOT a substitute for tactical training, but so far no one has shown me an exampled where it got peopled killed. So I ask again, do you have one?

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, ya kind of sound like the cigarette comapanies demanding proof cigarettes cause cancer. So you need the examiner that was so astute he was able to put together the guy that stood out in the open and took one to the brain bucket and conclude it was the type of comps he was shooting......ok sure. Even though every real trainer out there will express this concern you need more proof. I think you are now back peddling. No one said games are a substitute for training. Your example of new shooters makes no sense because they havent done it enough to develop the programmed responce so clearly that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about shooters that do a lot of competing in specific types of competition, but I believe you know that. How can you say you absolutely believe its a concern and in the same paragraph demand proof???

[Tosser 61]

Oh I ABSOLUTELY believe it is a concern which I why I tell people "This is a game, don't be an idiot and charge 12 baddies with a handgun through a door". The problem I have is that I've repeatedly heard "Gun games will get you killed" but so far no one has shown me actual example. The statement, in the way I often hear it, implies that gun games are harmful, instead of "not training". So far no one has shown me an example where gun games, by themselves and in the absence of other context, have gotten any one killed.

 

I'll offer you another perspective. The average civilian shooter mostly shoots at bullseyes from behind a bench. The average civilian shooter does not go and train at EAG, Magpul, Vickers or Viking Tactical, etc. The first time we shoot them in competition they have never holstered a hot gun, have no familiarity with safe fire arm handling, reloading their gun when they still have a round the chamber, etc. The single most common thing I see new shooters do is drop a magazine, insert a fresh one and rack out a live round out of the chamber, over and over gain, because every time they've loaded a gun on the firing line they started with an empty gun. I see new shooters who don't know how to operate the safety on their guns, don't know how not point it at their own feet or hands. I've seen shooters run around with a handgun gun pointing up in the air in a stance we call "The Full Sabrina" (think Charlies Angels). I've also seen police officers "unload" their shotguns by shooting the ground with a load of buckshot 12 inches from my foot and freeze not knowing what the hell they did. I fully understand bad habits, and muscle memory, because I see it every weekend.

 

Given that most of these folks will never attend a formal "tactical" training school (and if they all tried, they couldn't because there aren't enough such schools), do you honestly believe that they will be better served by being scared by lines such as "Gun games will get you killed on the street" instead of actually learning how to operate their firearms, do so safely, be able to accurately and quickly hit what they aim at, etc? From where I'm standing, I much rather they stop reading AR15 or Glocktalk where experts (some real, some not) tell them to avoid games unless they want to die when SHTF, and get their a** to a gun game and learn to actually use the firearms they own instead of polishing them to a fine shine in they comfort of their own basement while maintaining an illusion of safety. I rather they learn SOME bad tactical habits then maintain their all around bad firearm handling habits. This is isn't and altogether altruistic wish, I admit. Some of them might be neighbors and I rather not get shot through a wall because they woke up scared when the cat knocked over a vase.

 

I have never claimed and I will never claimed that gun games are a substitute for formal training, if you believe you need it. I am also rather dubious of the statement that "Gun games will get you killed". As I've mentioned elsewhere MOST of the time I've heard that line from people who participated in ONE match, got their a** handed to them, and decided to never come back. Sadly, a lot of those folks for police officers who came in full of swagger and couldn't hit a target. Before you jump down my throat, there are a good number of excellent competitive shooters who are police, military, etc so I'm not trying to paint such folks with a bad brush. Some were good on day one, some where 20 years veterans and SWAT team trainers who have flat out told me "I thought I knew how to shoot, until I've started shooting in competition"

 

So to sum up, competition shooting is NOT a substitute for tactical training, but so far no one has shown me an exampled where it got peopled killed. So I ask again, do you have one?

 

I don't know how many times it has to be repeated. The muscle memory from matches will get you killed. Doing the accepted practices from uspsa or wherever will result in you laying motionless on the ground.

 

This of course is assuming you own guns for self protection and not just competition.

 

 

I'll offer again. Come to the shoot house and run it as if it were a uspsa match. It will be an eye opener for you.

[Vlad G 345]

Tosser, I'll take you up on that offer. Tell me when and where I can join you and pending schedules and life priorities, I'll join you. PM with the information please. I take every opportunity to learn something new, and I'm not claiming to be an expert, so if you are offering to teach, I'll show up willing learn.

 

However I'm not asking for an example because I'm being willfully obtuse. Right now you are asking me to believe that USPSA get people killed because other people have stated so even though no one has ever shown me proof of it. I'm sorry but that is to much like religion for me. Please REREAD what I typed, I don't claim that USPSA "tactics" are suitable for self defense, in fact I fully agree with you that how we move through a stage is idiotic if it was a life and death scenario. The problem I have is that there is a huge gap between "USPSA is not self defense training" and "USPSA will get you killed". It is like saying race car drivers can't drive a car on the road without running into a tree.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Jack just I dont know your level of experience so dont take offence if I am telling you stuff you already know. But for example in USPSA the object is really speed. And as such there is NO consideration for cover. Your pretty much always shooting in the open, reloading in the open etc etc. Now Im not saying IDPA is perfect because its not. BUT, you always engage from cover when available. You get a penalty if you dont. You cant leave cover with an empty weapon. You will get a penalty if you do. etc etc. The rule set are more in line with tactics that you would want to use.

 

Some on this board know Gene whom was a trainer from an org that everyone knows. He's LE and does EP. Ever watch him shoot a glock match? He still employs cover etc etc because he does not want to develop bad habits for obvious reasons.

Well i was speaking in terms that unless you can control your actions your screwed with our without gaming experience. I feel that many things can be forgotten when your body enters high stress situations, basic fundamentals go out the window and survival kicks in. Whether or not gaming will hurt how you react is totally up to you. Some people crack under pressure, while others thrive.

[Joelk 61]

I will just add what I thought was an interesting phenomena from last weekends pistol classes. Several drills included a reactive target that took multiple (more than 3) shots in quick succession to go down. Several people with competitive backgrounds would double tap the target, see that it had not gone down, double tap the target, see that it had not gone down, etc. over and over. On the other hand, people with a "combative" background, for lack of a better term, just kept shooting the target until it went down whether it took 4 rounds or 10. Now this is training, not reality, but more that one person with a competitive background commented that they liked the drill, and it really opened their eyes to a training scar that they had developed.

 

One of my pet peeves about competitors, that got me off on the wrong foot with someone who I would now consider a friend, is the habit many competitors have of clearing a gun, and then pointing it in some random, sometimes unsafe, direction and pulling the trigger. I have seen this at multiple pistol and carbine classes as well from people with competition backgrounds. If you feel that pulling the trigger is part of the clearing process, at least do it in a safe direction, and maybe even use it as an opportunity to do aimed dry fire.

 

On the other hand I think competition is a great form of stress inoculation.

[bbk 188]

I'm curious of what the weight of your repeated question is? By saying that gun gaming would get someone killed isn't a literal description of an event. But it can be proven that bad habits have gotten people killed, yes.

My stories only come from the military (as I again don't interact with the gun-gaming community). The stories of friendly fire incidents because Soldiers weren't given the proper training, or didn't take things seriously, for positive identification, and/or didn't conduct proper sector of fire. The incidents that involved troops who were taught to always retain a magazine, regardless of whether or not they were in a firefight (or weren't trained properly to do a combat reload), and would lose track of what was on the other side of the two-way range-- and end up getting flanked, getting themselves and/or others killed. Even more recently, all the cases where local nationals being trained by coalition/US troops would turn the weapons on the trainers. If bad habits weren't created over time, how many lives would have not been lost?

So, yes, admittedly I don't have exacting cases you are requesting, but I do know of incidents occurring where bad habits, even by people of my same cloth, led to them and/or others being casualties.

 

As for there being no substitute for training, absolutely agree. I too get a bit tired to see people tacticool their Ken dolls without actually putting some thought behind it, and then saying that they would use it to defend their life and their loved ones. Of course that is their choice, and its not in my place to question their motives (I'll just "move down the line"). Instead of getting a red dot system or vertical front grip or totally rad light/laser system, they could probably afford a lot of ammunition and range time and become proficient with a bare-bone system for example. Or they, from those previous funds, could afford to get into at least a basic firearms course where the instructor drills more about mindset than trigger pulling.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

This is why I never understood USPSA or IDPA. In order to compete, you need guns that are usually built for "stages". Plus the "stages" are unrealistic and don't make any sense. Noone uses snubbies or 380s, which is what alot of people carry.

 

Now, if they made a division built on pocket guns, then I might bite.

[Vlad G 345]

I'm curious of what the weight of your repeated question is?

 

It boils down to the burning bush issue. I have a problem with taking statements like that on faith. Call me an unbeliever if you want. I don't for a second doubt that the very good teachers out there are indeed very good and the best that have ever been, this is not an issue of debate. But so were the ones before them, and the ones before them. I still see shooters who the military has taught to raise their handgun to the sky and lower it on target, though no one teaches that today.

 

10 years ago everyone was saying red dots used in competition have no purpose on real life guns. Today I read about top trainers like Vickers and others experimenting with RMR dots on their M&Ps. What was held an absolute in years past it is no longer so absolute.

 

Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept actual proof and examples, and I don't claim to know everything, and I'm willing to learn. So if someone shows me a case where USPSA has gotten someone killed, then I'll learn from it. Until then, it is dogma not fact. Mind you, dogma serves a purpose, but it should be always questioned and reexamined.

[KpdPipes 388]

Are Gun Games Dangerus???? Maybe not, but you WILL FALL BACK ON WHAT YOU DO MOST UNDER STRESS... You fight the way you train. There were numerous incidents in the 1970's for example where Cops under fire fell back on how they "Qualified"..to the point that some were found with an empty gun, and their hadn in their pokcet with the fired cases. The Miami shootout with the FBI is another good example. That said...USPSA, PPC, IPSC, hell even CAS is still better than checking into the Bullet Hole, Shore Shot, or any of theother "Square" ranges and shooting bullseye from a static position. it took a DECADE of fighting by myself and others to finally get some kind of actual "Training" as opposed to merely "Qualifying". As far as cover, reloading, movement, Ect.... VERY few of us are ever going to be in a situation where any of that woud be necessary, INCLUDING myself and the other LEO's on the board. 2.5 rounds at under 5 feet describes the VAST majority of "Gunfights". Im NOT saying dont train, but walking away completely from the "Games" isnt going to help all that much. ANY trigger time that includes movement, and increases your ability and practice manipulating your weapon(s) is helpful, even Cownoy Action. I've said for years that a 95 pound girl with a .22 pistol that she shoots regularly and can de-nut a gnat with is 1000% more effective than the Muscle-head with the .44 magnum that flinches and cant hit diddley with.

[Vlad G 345]

This is why I never understood USPSA or IDPA. In order to compete, you need guns that are usually built for "stages". Plus the "stages" are unrealistic and don't make any sense.

 

Slight misconception here, I don't own any guns specifically build for games. Sure some people do, but quite a few people shoot plain jane glocks, or 1911, or whatever.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Slight misconception here, I don't own any guns specifically build for games. Sure some people do, but quite a few people shoot plain jane glocks, or 1911, or whatever.

 

 

Most of the guns I saw in IDPA wouldn't be carried in a concealed carry role.