The state of shooting clubs and ranges in New Jersey and the USA...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Your intolerance for someone trying to wring every bit of accuracy out of gun, is no different than their intolerance for someone that burns through a full mag of ammo. Shooting isn't always about training for something or practical uses. Sometimes shooting is an end in itself. I like trying to put all my shots into one hole - and if that means allowing the barrel to cool between shots and maybe cleaning between strings, so be it. I also like running (well, in my case maybe not actually running ) a practical course with my AR. We need to understand and embrace the differences within our own community.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

There's a difference Bob. While I may not *understand* why they do it, I don't go out of my way to make a big stink about it to them (I'm just stating the differences in firearms use). Yet they aren't afraid of complaining about others' shooting styles outright. As I mentioned before, it isn't the younger guys who are being the stick in the muds here...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

What kind of training are you talking about? No mater what type of shooting you do you need a firm grasp on the fundamentals.

 

Any training I want to do that isn't going to put others' safety at risk. As for fundamentals, they have their place.

 

Anyone who knows me knows I have no aversion to rapid fire. Shoot as rapidly as you want as long as you can hit your target.

On the other hand, I have nothing but contempt for those who go to the range and dump lead into the berm as fast as they can because they think it looks cool, without any ability to actually hit the target.

 

Why? What's wrong with a mag dump every now and then*?

 

*if done safely

[msg73 1]

I got the sense that being a 2.0 is looked down upon to some extent. Based on the description, I consider myself in the 2.0 category. I'm in my late 30's but have played paintball and XBOX first person shooter games when I was younger. I also prefer the black, polymer, semi-auto guns with high tech tacticool stuff. However, I consider myself a responsible, safe and respectful shooter and follow the rules. I can see why someone would look down upon a gangster wanna be that is disrespectful and doesn't follow rules, but don't judge by the type of firearm or shooting preference alone. Just because someone has a classic revolver or wooden stock rifle/shotgun doesn't mean he's safe, responsible or will follow the rules.

 

If you look at what's used for the USPSA open division, you would think they are more 2.0 types (based on firearms and not if they are young or play airsoft). So, is it a bad thing to like black, polymer, semi-auto guns with optics and other tacticool stuff?

 

If you're safe, responsible, respectful and follow the rules, that's what should matter most.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Yet they aren't afraid of complaining about others' shooting styles outright.

 

 

With age comes privilege - or to put it in military parlance: RHIP

 

Admittedly, as one gets older you tend to get set in your ways and have less tolerance for those that act differently. It's important that younger shooters understand this and at least attempt a dialogue, rather than dismiss them as crotchety old fuds.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Joelk 61]

Any training I want to do that isn't going to put others' safety at risk. As for fundamentals, they have their place.

 

Why? What's wrong with a mag dump every now and then*?

 

*if done safely

 

With the *if done safely caveat we agree. Unfortunately I have watched people doing uncontrolled rapid fire put rounds over the berm more than once.

 

Edited to add: You don't need to get defensive as to what kind of training you are doing. I am a big advocate of firearms training and attend as many classes as I can. I am really looking forward to an upcoming carbine class with Kyle Lamb and taking ECQC with Southnarc again. I just wish we had more good classes in NJ.

[Joelk 61]

My description takes into account the motives as well as the move to embrace advances in shooting technology. Gun Culture 1.0s see all that stuff and consider it "tacticool". Whether that's a derogatory term or not is up to you. I don't think it is as it represents a culture shift towards a positive development of our sport.

 

You're operating under the assumption that 2.0 folks only like tacticool things and nothing else. I never made that assertion and I don't quite understand the hesitation that I included folks like you into that category. You're literally creating divisions where none exist.

 

As for CCW...

1. Cops don't count. They're there own type of class with a wholly different set of rules.

2. Those who view guns as "tools"? What does that mean? Is there a difference viewing a gun as a "tool" or as a "weapon"? Is it wrong to appreciate them for their "style"? What makes this group so special that they are somehow in a different group?

I am trying not to assume, but go off of your description of 2.0 in the OP:

Gun Culture 2.0 is the new generation. Kids who grew up playing Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, etc. who got into guns for all things fun and tactical. They love rapid firing, suppressors, Evil Black Rifles, black tubberware pistols, and combat shotguns with mag extensions to the double digits. They love IDPA, 3-guns, and zombie shoots. They enjoy tactical vests, tac lights, and aggressive stylings of firearms.

That mostly style based description does not fit Wastegate, Shane, several others, and myself, who would like to be on your side.

 

As far as the tool discussion, I have met quite a few people in training classes, who were excellent shooters, many with combat experience, who were not "into" guns, but just considered them tools that they use to defend themselves. There is noting wrong with appreciating a gun's style, but some people couldn't care less about style, just function.

 

I am just trying to make you aware that you have many potential allies who would say that they do not fit your 2.0 description.

[msg73 1]

Admittedly, as one gets older you tend to get set in your ways and have less tolerance for those that act differently. It's important that younger shooters understand this and at least attempt a dialogue, rather than dismiss them as crotchety old fuds.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

You would think that with age comes wisdom and the ablility to exercise more tolerance. If you can't expect the older people to have tolerance and understanding, how can we expect the younger and immature generation to do so? It has to go both ways with the older generation setting the example.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

With age comes privilege - or to put it in military parlance: RHIP

 

Admittedly, as one gets older you tend to get set in your ways and have less tolerance for those that act differently. It's important that younger shooters understand this and at least attempt a dialogue, rather than dismiss them as crotchety old fuds.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Of course. But that whole "stuck in their way" thing with the old timers is kinda the issue here. Especially in regards to ranges and how they're operated.

 

Ranges like RTSP are of the 2.0 generation. While all are welcome there, they are trying to include a lot of the newer generation shooters by not only accommodating them with open arms, but by offering courses and classes there that reflect modern shooting styles... especially simmunition training. Can't wait to try that!

[Shane45 807]

I dont have to have a personal interest in bench rest shooting to appreciate what they are doing. However I certainly would make every effort to be considerate to said shooter. I either set up to the right of said benchrester or far left so as not to drop brass on him or anyone for that matter. This is a matter of consideration, not a discrepancy of shooting disciplines.

 

As for mag dumps...well....if your at a range that has no berm concerns because of considerable fallout area, knock yourself out! What do I care if you piss away ammo safely. But be carfull you can go blind from too much triggerbation.

[Shane45 807]

DA, Im not familier with the range your talking about. Do they have the facilities for close rifle shooting and allow for things like transitioning from rifle to pistol?

[Joelk 61]

DA, Im not familier with the range your talking about. Do they have the facilities for close rifle shooting and allow for things like transitioning from rifle to pistol?

Looks like RTSP a new north jersey range.

 

If they do Sims I may have to check it out, as I am a big believer in Sims training.

[Soju 153]

1.0

 

Stuck in their ways, not accepting to change. Doesn't like when people do things differently than them.

 

2.0

 

All others.

 

You can like bolt guns, wood on your shotgun, slow fire, and not much else, and fall in this 2.0 category as long as you either don't care how others shoot, or understand that others like shooting differently than you and are okay with it.

 

It is usually pretty clear when you meet these people. You pull out your AR or something and they give you a stare down, or shake their head and sigh, or even try and prevent you from shooting or having a good time. On the other hand you can run into somebody who looks old as dirt, has on think glasses, is doing his own, slow fire with ancient looking rifle, yet when he sees you bring out the AR with an ACOG or something comments on how he needs something like your sight as maybe it would help his old eyes see better, or something in a friendly manner.

[Joelk 61]

1.0

 

Stuck in their ways, not accepting to change. Doesn't like when people do things differently than them.

 

2.0

 

All others.

 

You can like bolt guns, wood on your shotgun, slow fire, and not much else, and fall in this 2.0 category as long as you either don't care how others shoot, or understand that others like shooting differently than you and are okay with it.

 

It is usually pretty clear when you meet these people. You pull out your AR or something and they give you a stare down, or shake their head and sigh, or even try and prevent you from shooting or having a good time. On the other hand you can run into somebody who looks old as dirt, has on think glasses, is doing his own, slow fire with ancient looking rifle, yet when he sees you bring out the AR with an ACOG or something comments on how he needs something like your sight as maybe it would help his old eyes see better, or something in a friendly manner.

GREAT description!

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I am trying not to assume, but go off of your description of 2.0 in the OP:

 

That mostly style based description does not fit Wastegate, Shane, several others, and myself, who would like to be on your side.

 

As far as the tool discussion, I have met quite a few people in training classes, who were excellent shooters, many with combat experience, who were not "into" guns, but just considered them tools that they use to defend themselves. There is noting wrong with appreciating a gun's style, but some people couldn't care less about style, just function.

 

I am just trying to make you aware that you have many potential allies who would say that they do not fit your 2.0 description.

 

Again: where is the exclusion in my definition? Are you saying that you three don't like evil black rifles, polymer handguns, etc? You don't like 3-guns? IDPAs?

 

As for the combat vets and police... who cares if they consider themselves "into" guns or not? You make it sound like it's a bad thing to view a firearm as something beyond a tool. Maybe they're shamed into believing that or having a little fun with the sport from time to time. It doesn't have to be all serious you know. Don't be afraid of a little fun.

 

My whole point with that description was to capture what is essentially the new generation of shooters. Folks who didn't have a parent/grandparent/relative who hunted and owned firearms and had to get into the hobby all by themselves. This is especially common in an urban state like New Jersey where many hunters and old time shooters have simply died off or moved away.

[axeman_g 128]

Shane beat me to the question.

[Maksim 1,504]

I am driving, so can't type up a full response, but I completely disagree with the the broad stroke of how black and white you paint the picture. You are either an old fart of a video game pimpled kid with a hard on for an Hk 45?

 

So what am I? I have more Mil Surplus stuff than modern stuff, love shooting the vintage rifle matches as much as running and gunning.

 

Personally, I would rather shoot with someone from the 1.0 generation than a 21 year old with a brand new AR and a set of gun knowledge from a video game, trying to impress his girlfriend.

 

Old guys with guns, as you call them, might be a nuisance, but the so called 2.0, is a safety concern, being more interested in impressing others with what they have, then improving their skills and doing as a hobby primarily to improve themselves first.

[Jon 264]

My whole point with that description was to capture what is essentially the new generation of shooters. Folks who didn't have a parent/grandparent/relative who hunted and owned firearms and had to get into the hobby all by themselves. This is especially common in an urban state like New Jersey where many hunters and old time shooters have simply died off or moved away.

 

I've been hunting with my father since before I was 10, and got into guns as a direct result of this. I now own several black rifles, and several handguns, and my father rolls his eyes at my AR. What does growing up in a household that hunted have to do with 1.0 vs 2.0 in your mind?

[Shane45 807]

"That mostly style based description does not fit Wastegate, Shane, several others, and myself, who would like to be on your side.

 

As far as the tool discussion, I have met quite a few people in training classes, who were excellent shooters, many with combat experience, who were not "into" guns, but just considered them tools that they use to defend themselves. There is noting wrong with appreciating a gun's style, but some people couldn't care less about style, just function.

 

I am just trying to make you aware that you have many potential allies who would say that they do not fit your 2.0 description."

 

 

I wholheartedly agree. The motivation is the delineation and is likely why we see them more along the lines of tools. Im sure you have seen me reference "golf clubs in the bag, right tool for the right job" several times here on the forum.

 

Personally i dont care if counterstrike/Call of Duty etc etc is what got you here. As long as you have your head about you I welcome you. Just dont tell me about how your Call of Duty tactics apply to the real world I guess to further pontificate, the thing to understand about the motivation for "tool" selection is that those that see them as tools tend to have zero emotional attachment to them. If the tool doesnt live up to expectations or a better tool comes along, the previous one is sumarily out the door. Based on my observations of people that I would say fit your 2.0 description is that they have an emotional investment in the firearm and how much they paid for it. They take it personally if a solid case is made for why the tool they are using may have issue or is potentially substandard.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

1.0

 

Stuck in their ways, not accepting to change. Doesn't like when people do things differently than them.

 

2.0

 

All others.

 

You can like bolt guns, wood on your shotgun, slow fire, and not much else, and fall in this 2.0 category as long as you either don't care how others shoot, or understand that others like shooting differently than you and are okay with it.

 

It is usually pretty clear when you meet these people. You pull out your AR or something and they give you a stare down, or shake their head and sigh, or even try and prevent you from shooting or having a good time. On the other hand you can run into somebody who looks old as dirt, has on think glasses, is doing his own, slow fire with ancient looking rifle, yet when he sees you bring out the AR with an ACOG or something comments on how he needs something like your sight as maybe it would help his old eyes see better, or something in a friendly manner.

 

Awesome description. Better than mine.

[Soju 153]

I am driving, so can't type up a full response, but I completely disagree with the the broad stroke of how black and white you paint the picture. You are either an old fart of a video game pimpled kid with a hard on for an Hk 45?

 

So what am I? I have more Mil Surplus stuff than modern stuff, love shooting the vintage rifle matches as much as running and gunning.

 

Personally, I would rather shoot with someone from the 1.0 generation than a 21 year old with a brand new AR and a set of gun knowledge from a video game, trying to impress his girlfriend.

 

Old guys with guns, as you call them, might be a nuisance, but the so called 2.0, is a safety concern, being more interested in impressing others with what they have, then improving their skills and doing as a hobby primarily to improve themselves first.

 

Assuming you are referencing the OP, I think you are looking at his description as if that is exclusive. I'm pretty sure it was just some examples. See my above post.

 

I also think that your generalization is just as bad, if not worse, than the generalize descriptions in the OP, though I assumed you were using a hyperbole.

 

Now, I guess I should explain why I think your generalization is bad. It is almost as if you are implying that every young 20 something with an AR gets his knowledge about them from video games. Is this really the case though? I had an AR when I was 22, did I fall into that category? I mean, after all, I did play CoD a bit, and was quite into Battlefield BC2 the time. Well the fact is, I got almost none, if any, of my knowledge from video games. You are stereotyping young people as bad as the OP may have been stereotyping old people. I'm sure there are young people who just have guns because of video games. But I don't know any. I shoot with a number of people my age, and not one of them is like you describe. There has to be a reason for this discrepancy though, right?

[Joelk 61]

Again: where is the exclusion in my definition? Are you saying that you three don't like evil black rifles, polymer handguns, etc? You don't like 3-guns? IDPAs?

 

As for the combat vets and police... who cares if they consider themselves "into" guns or not? You make it sound like it's a bad thing to view a firearm as something beyond a tool. Maybe they're shamed into believing that or having a little fun with the sport from time to time. It doesn't have to be all serious you know. Don't be afraid of a little fun. There is noting wrong with fun, and liking guns, just realize some don't consider firearms fun or interesting any more that you consider a bandage fun or interesting.

 

My whole point with that description was to capture what is essentially the new generation of shooters. Folks who didn't have a parent/grandparent/relative who hunted and owned firearms and had to get into the hobby all by themselves. This is especially common in an urban state like New Jersey where many hunters and old time shooters have simply died off or moved away.

I will go point by point from my perspective, with my comments in red:

Gun Culture 2.0 is the new generation. Kids who grew up playing Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, etc. I didn't grow up playing Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, etc.

who got into guns for all things fun and tacticool. I didn't get into guns because they were fun and tacticool.

They love rapid firing, suppressors, Evil Black Rifles, black tubberware pistols, and combat shotguns with mag extensions to the double digits. I don't love rapid firing. I have more experience with suppressors than the vast majority of board members here, and know how loud they really are. I own ARs and Glocks, but not because they are Evil Black Rifles, or tubberware, but because they are reliable and fit my needs. My shotguns have practical and legal mag extensions.

They love IDPA, 3-guns, and zombie shoots. I do not love competition, but merely view it as a training tool when shot using real world tactics

They enjoy tactical vests, tac lights, and aggressive stylings of firearms. I do not enjoy tactical vests, in fact I find them impractical. I use lights merely to be able to see in the dark. I like firearms that work, and hate when style takes precedence over function.

 

As you can see I have little in common with your 2.0 description, which seems to me to be of an ignorant young person obsessed with style and video game culture, who has yet to really learn much about firearms. It is good that they are getting into firearms, but don't think that they are the only non 1.0s out there.

 

On the other hand we both like Bonesinium's decription.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I've been hunting with my father since before I was 10, and got into guns as a direct result of this. I now own several black rifles, and several handguns, and my father rolls his eyes at my AR. What does growing up in a household that hunted have to do with 1.0 vs 2.0 in your mind?

 

It was probably a bit easier for you to get into shooting than someone who never had those influences in life. How is someone who never fired a gun, much less held one, going to get into the hobby? Especially given the great barriers to entry here (getting permits, getting the gun, and then finding a place to shoot it). Most people can't even get over the first few steps.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I am driving, so can't type up a full response, but I completely disagree with the the broad stroke of how black and white you paint the picture. You are either an old fart of a video game pimpled kid with a hard on for an Hk 45?

 

So what am I? I have more Mil Surplus stuff than modern stuff, love shooting the vintage rifle matches as much as running and gunning.

 

Personally, I would rather shoot with someone from the 1.0 generation than a 21 year old with a brand new AR and a set of gun knowledge from a video game, trying to impress his girlfriend.

 

Old guys with guns, as you call them, might be a nuisance, but the so called 2.0, is a safety concern, being more interested in impressing others with what they have, then improving their skills and doing as a hobby primarily to improve themselves first.

 

Your mil-surp collection wouldn't offend the old timers. That's their "kind of gun", lol.

 

As for showing off or having a nice AR-15? So what? It's called mainstreaming, and it means that firearms are moving from the taboo and stigma that they have and into the realm where they are becoming commonplace and accepted.

 

I also don't see the hang up with the "video game" thing. Is it so terrible that a kid wants to own and shoot an AR-15 because they like to shoot an M-4 in a video game? They're cool guns, and fun to shoot.

[Joelk 61]

As for showing off or having a nice AR-15? So what? It's called mainstreaming, and it means that firearms are moving from the taboo and stigma that they have and into the realm where they are becoming commonplace and accepted.

You do realize that firearms are, and have long been, "commonplace and accepted" in the majority of America. It is only in a few liberal states like NJ that they are "taboo and stigma"

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I will go point by point from my perspective, with my comments in red:

 

 

As you can see I have little in common with your 2.0 description, which seems to me to be of an ignorant young person obsessed with style and video game culture, who has yet to really learn much about firearms. It is good that they are getting into firearms, but don't think that they are the only non 1.0s out there.

 

On the other hand we both like Bonesinium's decription.

 

You say you have little in common, but you still use all that stuff. Sure the reasons for owning the particular firearms and accessories may differ a bit, but the end result is the same. You're buying those things because you believe they will give you an edge. As for how much of an edge they give you, that always comes down to practice. What is functional to you is kinda cool to someone else. But also, not mutually exclusive.

 

Lighten up a bit, no need to be so defensive here.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

You do realize that firearms are, and have long been, "commonplace and accepted" in the majority of America. It is only in a few liberal states like NJ that they are "taboo and stigma"

 

Not true. It's only recently following the dark times of the Brady Bill and AWB that we've seen an upsurge in firearms and accessories. In fact, for a long, long time, most Americans actually favored more gun control than not. That's only turned around in recent years.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/politics/gun.control.poll_1_gun-laws-gun-owner-rights-people?_s=PM:POLITICS

 

Not to mention the type of firearms that were commonly accepted. Evil Black Rifles are bigger than ever now than they have been at any point in this nations' history.

[Joelk 61]

Not true. It's only recently following the dark times of the Brady Bill and AWB that we've seen an upsurge in firearms and accessories. In fact, for a long, long time, most Americans actually favored more gun control than not. That's only turned around in recent years.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/politics/gun.control.poll_1_gun-laws-gun-owner-rights-people?_s=PM:POLITICS

 

Not to mention the type of firearms that were commonly accepted. Evil Black Rifles are bigger than ever now than they have been at any point in this nations' history.

Get out of this shitty liberal state, and your circle of friends, and spend some time experiencing some of free America and you will be amazed at how differently people view firearms (and many other things as well).

 

I am done with this thread, as you seem incapable of seeing that other people, who would like to be on your side, may have a different point of view.

[CageFighter 236]

Good post, 2.0 checking in here (although I don't play Nintendo games).

 

ditto

[BigAl 10]

Guess I won't tell anyone that I played Counter Strike, Day of Defeat, and Call of Duty, and that I like big guns that go boom. Please put me into category 3.0.

 

Here is the issue, as with everything else when you starting categorizing, you can't put everyone into their own category. Leave the categorization as it is, but change it from within. For all those people that are afraid of people like me, cause we play or played video games, guess what your job is... to teach us the right way of doing things, that is your contribution to the cause. Whats going to happen if you start categorizing is that there is going to be a divide within the shooting community. Instead of building our strengths, we will be weakened by it. I'm not considering outliers such as those trying to impress their baby mommas or those asking their health aides to help them place their dislocated shoulder back in their socket after a shot, cause they are a minuscule contribution to the entire equation.

 

PS. Day of Defeat pwns Counter Strike. Headshot BOOM

[axeman_g 128]

+1billion

"Get out of this shitty liberal state, and your circle of friends, and spend some time experiencing some of free America and you will be amazed at how differently people view firearms (and many other things as well)."