The state of shooting clubs and ranges in New Jersey and the USA...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Get out of this shitty liberal state, and your circle of friends, and spend some time experiencing some of free America and you will be amazed at how differently people view firearms (and many other things as well).

 

I am done with this thread, as you seem incapable of seeing that other people, who would like to be on your side, may have a different point of view.

 

Ummm, I dunno if you noticed that my 'home range' is in PA... yeesh.

 

You'd think by your description of the national shooting scene that things were all candycanes and lollipops when it came to gun ownership and participation in the sport. Yet, there was a long time from the 1970s to the late 1990s where the gun grabbers had us on the ropes and had their way with the 2A. The great revival is happening now though, and for that we are fortunate.

[Tosser 61]

Not true. It's only recently following the dark times of the Brady Bill and AWB that we've seen an upsurge in firearms and accessories. In fact, for a long, long time, most Americans actually favored more gun control than not. That's only turned around in recent years.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/politics/gun.control.poll_1_gun-laws-gun-owner-rights-people?_s=PM:POLITICS

 

Not to mention the type of firearms that were commonly accepted. Evil Black Rifles are bigger than ever now than they have been at any point in this nations' history.

 

Have you ever left NJ for a significant period of time? NJ has the issue of firearms being taboo. When the bill of rights was ratified in 1791 firearms were specifically protected. People in Pa for example may not own black rifles but just don't give a fugg.

 

My father grew up shooting a .22 in the strip mines with his friends, starting at the age of 10... Taboo much?

 

There was popularity with ARs going back many years. Look at the '86 MG ban and how many legal title II m16s are out there today.

 

 

Quoting CNN for gun anything is Probally not the best source...

[Tosser 61]

Mentality outside of Nj.

 

I have a friend in pa who is what you could call a dead head...

 

He owns a few sks's and spam cans of 7.62 just incase... And he is for all intents and purposes a liberal.

 

 

This would never happen in this go forsaken state.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Have you ever left NJ for a significant period of time? NJ has the issue of firearms being taboo. When the bill of rights was ratified in 1791 firearms were specifically protected. People in Pa for example may not own black rifles but just don't give a fugg.

 

My father grew up shooting a .22 in the strip mines with his friends, starting at the age of 10... Taboo much?

 

There was popularity with ARs going back many years. Look at the '86 MG ban and how many legal title II m16s are out there today.

 

 

Quoting CNN for gun anything is Probally not the best source...

 

Yet even then, they managed to pass GCA '68, slipped Hughes into the FOPA '86, passed the Brady Bill and the AWB. So much for America being a gun friendly country at that time. It took us almost losing our rights to realize they were worth fighting for. It's also why you see the explosion of gun ownership today since the year 2000 and the sunset of the AWB...

 

And so what on the source? Support for Gun Control is at an all time low today, yet it also shows that there was a time when Americans found it to be quite acceptable. Heck, there were people in this state who didn't mind one bit when they instituted the FPID and Permit Scheme... back then it just seemed like "common sense" to them. That was also at a time when there were probably quite a few more gun owners in this state than there are today.

 

I really don't see why you or Joelk are having a hissy over this.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Mentality outside of Nj.

 

I have a friend in pa who is what you could call a dead head...

 

He owns a few sks's and spam cans of 7.62 just incase... And he is for all intents and purposes a liberal.

 

 

This would never happen in this go forsaken state.

 

Why not? There are folks of the Democratic/Liberal persuasion who own guns in this state. They're not above being hypocrites ya kno.

[Shane45 807]

"Not true. It's only recently following the dark times of the Brady Bill and AWB that we've seen an upsurge in firearms and accessories."

 

I disagree with this statement.

 

 

"You say you have little in common, but you still use all that stuff. Sure the reasons for owning the particular firearms and accessories may differ a bit, but the end result is the same."

 

Id like to pick at this a little bit. What I can tell you is this. What is on Joel's, Mine, Tactical Monkeys, Tossers and a number of other members rifles here may be all different from each other. But its on there for the same reason. That reason is because of a few things. Considerable time vetting out this equipment that its solid and works well for the individual, the intended role of the rifle and proven reliability. Not because it was seen on a videogame somewhere or in a movie. I cant tell you the number of people that come to me about recreating the optics setup they see in video games! OH how I wish Modern Warefare 2 put a damn aimpoint on the rifle instead of a cheap Chinease Haako sight!!!!!!!!! I AM happy to see anyone joining the shooting sports! But the motivations for those selections as you can see are significantly different. However all hope is not lost as I have seen a good number of 2.0's get some experience under their belt and graduate to 1.5

[Joelk 61]

Support for Gun Control is at an all time low today, yet it also shows that there was a time when Americans found it to be quite acceptable. Heck, there were people in this state who didn't mind one bit when they instituted the FPID and Permit Scheme... back then it just seemed like "common sense" to them. That was also at a time when there were probably quite a few more gun owners in this state than there are today.

 

I really don't see why you or Joelk are having a hissy over this.

In the 70s when I was 8 years old I carried a real gun to school as part of a Halloween costume, try that today and then tell me how much better it is today and how guns are "becoming commonplace and accepted":thsmiley_deadhorse:

[DevsAdvocate 112]

"Not true. It's only recently following the dark times of the Brady Bill and AWB that we've seen an upsurge in firearms and accessories."

 

I disagree with this statement.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/100311TotalNICSBackgroundChecks.pdf

 

Since 1999, the number of NICS checks have increased steadily from ~9M to ~14M...

 

"You say you have little in common, but you still use all that stuff. Sure the reasons for owning the particular firearms and accessories may differ a bit, but the end result is the same."

 

Id like to pick at this a little bit. What I can tell you is this. What is on Joel's, Mine, Tactical Monkeys, Tossers and a number of other members rifles here may be all different from each other. But its on there for the same reason. That reason is because of a few things. Considerable time vetting out this equipment that its solid and works well for the individual, the intended role of the rifle and proven reliability. Not because it was seen on a videogame somewhere or in a movie. I cant tell you the number of people that come to me about recreating the optics setup they see in video games! OH how I wish Modern Warefare 2 put a damn aimpoint on the rifle instead of a cheap Chinease Haako sight!!!!!!!!! I AM happy to see anyone joining the shooting sports! But the motivations for those selections as you can see are significantly different. However all hope is not lost as I have seen a good number of 2.0's get some experience under their belt and graduate to 1.5

 

Agreed. But my point is: people buy these things to give them an edge, no? So a CoD player got an AR-15, sees that in the game a red-dot gives an obvious advantage over using iron sights, and wants the same for his own rifle. Where is the fault there? If he wastes his money on a Haako, then that's his choice. He can also waste his money on an ACOG or EOtech as well.

 

The nice thing is they buy all this crap they see in the VGs, then go out an shoot for real. That nice dose of reality lets them re-think their setup, and hopefully even learn more about the sport.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

In the 70s when I was 8 years old I carried a real gun to school as part of a Halloween costume, try that today and then tell me how much better it is today and how guns are "becoming commonplace and accepted":thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

Because back then, Gun Control was fair game, and just got worse from there. Not to mention some changes to our society... like school shootings. Once stuff like that happened, there was no going back. But that doesn't mean progress is being made today. Frankly, it's a bit irresponsible to give a kid and unloaded gun as part of a Halloween costume... I don't see anyone, even the most ardent pro-gun person, doing that anymore.

[Joelk 61]

Frankly, it's a bit irresponsible to give a kid and unloaded gun as part of a Halloween costume... I don't see anyone, even the most ardent pro-gun person, doing that anymore.

So you are trying to prove that society is less in favor of gun control today by saying that not even the most ardent pro-gun person today would do something (let a kid use an unloaded gun in a Halloween costume) that was commonplace in the 70s?

 

Would it really freak you out to know that my father owned his own 22s (a pistol and a revolver) when he was 9, the hardware store would sell him ammo, and he could take his guns to school to go shooting with his friends after school?

[Shane45 807]

I wouldnt put that much faith in NICS Data. For example some states in America, if you have a CCW you are exempt from Nics. And at what point did all 50 get on board. If I remember correctly it took a while. That is not to say buying isnt at a all time high but again, the data can be easily misinterpreted. I also wanted to add that the state of politics and the perceptoin of the people arent always congruant. Think about every poll you see even on places like CNN that come out pro 2A by a large margin. Sounds like a silent majority against a political agenda. I do believe and agree that the political pendulum is being forced back the other way to a degree. But sociatal anxiety especially here make it a strugle for sure.

 

"The nice thing is they buy all this crap they see in the VGs, then go out an shoot for real. That nice dose of reality lets them re-think their setup, and hopefully even learn more about the sport."

 

This is my hope and why I welcome them. I dont care how they get their start, just that they do. BUT, (you knew a but was coming didnt you)it IS a problem when said Video Game player stands there and argues with a D-Boy operator with 15 RK's under his belt and finally spills it that his opinion on the subject is based on said video games....... TRUE STORY!!!

[Tosser 61]

Yet even then, they managed to pass GCA '68, slipped Hughes into the FOPA '86, passed the Brady Bill and the AWB. So much for America being a gun friendly country at that time. It took us almost losing our rights to realize they were worth fighting for. It's also why you see the explosion of gun ownership today since the year 2000 and the sunset of the AWB...

 

And so what on the source? Support for Gun Control is at an all time low today, yet it also shows that there was a time when Americans found it to be quite acceptable. Heck, there were people in this state who didn't mind one bit when they instituted the FPID and Permit Scheme... back then it just seemed like "common sense" to them. That was also at a time when there were probably quite a few more gun owners in this state than there are today.

 

I really don't see why you or Joelk are having a hissy over this.

 

Having a hissy? I dont even know what that means.

 

All I know is that you are using flawed logic in your assumptions.

 

 

USA is the most gun friendly county... Look at the national gun laws of the UK, Canada, Germany, and China. Tell me who is the rising star amungst them.

 

Just because a law is passed does not by any stretch reflect the tone or beliefs of a nation. Prohibition is the greatest example of this, people blatantly ignored it and carried on business as usual. This led to the repeal.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

So you are trying to prove that society is less in favor of gun control today by saying that not even the most ardent pro-gun person today would do something (let a kid use an unloaded gun in a Halloween costume) that was commonplace in the 70s?

 

Yes, because now that we (as a society) have seen the failure of Gun Control, we are less inclined to implement it again. This was suggested by the CNN poll that you disregarded earlier.

 

I think that since the 1970s, things have happened that have shaped our view on school safety, and even firearms safety in a more positive light. Guns aren't toys, and they shouldn't be treated as such. If you want to go run around on Halloween with a gun, as an 8 year old, then use a toy. Lord knows we have the 4 rules for a reason, and using the gun in that manner violates a great deal of them.

 

Would it really freak you out to know that my father owned his own 22s (a pistol and a revolver) when he was 9, the hardware store would sell him ammo, and he could take his guns to school to go shooting with his friends after school?

 

Nope. I don't really mind that at all. In fact, if the GCA 68 weren't passed, maybe I can buy Guns and Ammo off of Amazon Prime.

 

But hey, apparently your dad's generation didn't mind allowing that to pass, just like they didn't mind you running around with a gun on Halloween.

[Malsua 1,422]

I guess I'm .25. I've been shooting guns for 35 years. It's the annoying idjits that bug me, not the guns they shoot.

 

I don't play FPS "squad" shooters much, but I have done Doom, Halflife etc. I grew up in Free America. The gun culture never died. It's only in NJ that you even have to ask these questions. EVERYONE was pissed about the AWB, even people who only brought out the shotgun one week a year to shoot at deer. Everyone was and still is conservative. That's probably the problem. Conservatives don't give a crap what you shoot, just don't be an asshole. NJ is chockablock with Libs who can't stay out of your business.

 

Shooting after school meant you got to bring your gun to school. While I never participated plenty of other guys in my class did. Handguns were strictly verboten but .22s and shotguns were common. There was a healthy respect and they had to go to the office or stay in the gun rack, you couldn't just stuff it in your locker, but no one flipped and passed out cold at the sight.

 

I have an somewhat tactical AR and I can appreciate tactical guns. I don't go out of my way to tacticool everything I own. I also appreciate scroll work on a nice wood stock. Mag dumps can be fun, so can hole in hole, 4 shots an hour.

 

I'd never presume to make someone's range time bad or try to bother them. I'll just leave. If the range is loaded up with unsafe gun handling dillweeds who's only goal is to send as much lead down range in the shortest possible time, I'll find somewhere else to shoot. I've gone long periods in my life without pulling the trigger so if I have to find another range, so it goes.

 

I guess the whole "You're with us" type #2 or "Against us" type #1 pretty much misses the mark by a mile.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I wouldnt put that much faith in NICS Data. For example some states in America, if you have a CCW you are exempt from Nics. And at what point did all 50 get on board. If I remember correctly it took a while. That is not to say buying isnt at a all time high but again, the data can be easily misinterpreted. I also wanted to add that the state of politics and the perceptoin of the people arent always congruant. Think about every poll you see even on places like CNN that come out pro 2A by a large margin. Sounds like a silent majority against a political agenda. I do believe and agree that the political pendulum is being forced back the other way to a degree. But sociatal anxiety especially here make it a strugle for sure.

 

I would wager that given the states that allow CHLs (I think Texas is one of them) to buy without NICS checks, the number of CHL holders, and the volume of firearms traffic would not be statistically significant to observe when tracking national firearms purchases. According to the chart I supplied, NICS was fully implemented until 1999.

 

Anywho... if we aren't at an all-time high of firearms purchases, then when were purchases at an all time high? The only time I can think of is prior to the passing of FOPA 86, and prior to the 1993 AWB.

 

"The nice thing is they buy all this crap they see in the VGs, then go out an shoot for real. That nice dose of reality lets them re-think their setup, and hopefully even learn more about the sport."

 

This is my hope and why I welcome them. I dont care how they get their start, just that they do. BUT, (you knew a but was coming didnt you)it IS a problem when said Video Game player stands there and argues with a D-Boy operator with 15 RK's under his belt and finally spills it that his opinion on the subject is based on said video games....... TRUE STORY!!!

 

I guess some folks don't know when their foot is so far in their mouth that they're kicking their own a**. It happens in any hobby, you always get those types.

[Joelk 61]

Yes, because now that we (as a society) have seen the failure of Gun Control, we are less inclined to implement it again. This was suggested by the CNN poll that you disregarded earlier.

CNN polls don't mean much to me.

I think that since the 1970s, things have happened that have shaped our view on school safety, and even firearms safety in a more positive light. Guns aren't toys, and they shouldn't be treated as such. If you want to go run around on Halloween with a gun, as an 8 year old, then use a toy. Lord knows we have the 4 rules for a reason, and using the gun in that manner violates a great deal of them

So the guy who says 2.0 got into guns as they are fun, cool, and in video games says guns aren't toys.

When I was 8 I knew the 4 rules, and sure as hell kept my finger off of the trigger better that a lot of NJ shooters I see. By the way which of the 4 rules were violated by a kid taking a gun to school as part of a costume?

Nope. I don't really mind that at all. In fact, if the GCA 68 weren't passed, maybe I can buy Guns and Ammo off of Amazon Prime.

 

But hey, apparently your dad's generation didn't mind allowing that to pass, just like they didn't mind you running around with a gun on Halloween.

 

So according to you a 9 year old can have a gun and ammo in school, but an 8 year old with an unloaded gun is unsafe.

 

My father and I have voted for politicians who were pro gun, just like I assume you have, so using your logic I should say that you and 2.0's generation didn't mind the passage of one gun a month.

[Joelk 61]

I guess some folks don't know when their foot is so far in their mouth that they're kicking their own a**. It happens in any hobby, you always get those types.

And I think we have reached that point

[Parker 213]

Questions since I'm not up on some of the nomenclature used here:

 

1) What is a "fudd?"

2) What is an "OFWG?"

[djg0770 481]

Questions since I'm not up on some of the nomenclature used here:

 

1) What is a "fudd?"

2) What is an "OFWG?"

 

Fudd refers to Elmer Fudd - the famous cartoon character "it's duck season, NO! It's wabbit season!" which basically means any old crusty guy

 

OFWG = Old F (I'm gonna say Fat) White Guy

[Shane45 807]

DA, Im not saying purchasing isnt at an all time high. My position is that said purchasing isnt mostly driven by interest in the sport. I think those numbers are more driven by massive terrorist attacks on American soil, a general feeling of sociatal uncertainty, a healthy fear of govt gun grabbing, a ton of 2012 type shows and documentaries, and the front and center observations that no one can take care of themselves any more and the govt cant either in a natural disaster. Everyone I know that is a shooter was a shooter before these events. None of the people that have come foward in recent years asking me to indoc them were of th "interest in the sport" catagory, they were all in the latter. (Which is why most of them ended up with a plain 20Ga shotty).

[usnmars 136]

Although i am young i am a 1.0

I cannot stand the fuggtards that come to the range and have the mentallity that if it isnt plastic its a PoS. I cringe when i see every item in a midway catalog that is labeled tactical bolted on a guys gun but still cant shoot for a darn. Learn the fundimentals of shooting first then bolt on the doo-dads. I dislike the guys who think its cool to run around shooting acting like swat team rejects but yet cant hit shiat. They call it training but in a SHTF situation, you'll only die tired looking like an idiot that played too much COD.

 

Beware of the guy that has only one gun, he probabally knows how to use it.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I love guns and anything that goes bang.... nuff said.

 

I dont really care what other people do unless it puts my safety in jeopardy.

[Maksim 1,504]

Yep, plus 1 Eric.

 

I really dislike where this topic is grouping people into one camp or another. DA, I really think you need to come out to more forum meetups, and various events, you will see how there are young guys participating in vintage matches, and older folks trying action shooting.

 

If you want to group people, I would try...

 

a. Hunters

b. Casual Shooters (your once every few months, to then twice year, bought a gun because they wanted to one day, and then essentially quit the sport, but still have the gun.

c. Serious Hobby (will typically try to shoot a few times a month, or more, will typically have a ranger membership at a private range, and will stick mostly to their own game (be it pistols, ar's, bolt actions, shotguns) and hang in their circle of people. Will occasionaly shoot their other guns.

d. Competitors (Skeet, Trap, NRA High Power, Bullseye, USPSA, IDPA, Cowboy Action) All that matters is their little game, no one else, or anything else really matters.

e. Purpose/LE/Tactical - Firearms are a tool, want to be as proficient at it as possible, training first.

f. Collectors - it is mostly about amassing a collection. Not even as much about shooting them, but the history aspect.

 

 

You can always find people in those groups, however the simple 1.0 vs 2.0 is assinine. It is not as cut and dry as that. The guys who are coming into gun owners, and the ones you typically see at a public range, or messing around with their tacticool black rifle with a glock on their hip holster, will typically fail out of the hobby one way or another. They are the least safe people and the reason why I don't feel safe at a public range. (yep, the ones who insist on using a scope at 20 yards (besides sighting it in), and need to have every accessory on the gun, yet can't shoot for crap. yep, also the ones insisting on shooting birdshot out of a shotgun at an indoor range. You know, the ones that know everything about the sport, drinking the Glock coolaid.

 

If this is 2.0, god help this sport.

 

[Soju 153]

People are reading into things WAY TOO MUCH.

 

But it is interesting nonetheless!

[Maksim 1,504]

As others said, try the various disciplines, and you will understand where people are coming from.

 

Just even typing the post, it made me realize how I progressed, from a casual shooter, to I'll admit, I like my action gun games, and dable in other shooting and collecting. I could give a rat's behind what other people own or do, as long as they do it safely.

 

In the past three years, I was blessed with being able to meet many many people, from all sorts of shooting corners and have found a new appreciation with what people can do with firearms. I have tried my hand at Skeet and Trap, I have had my 308 bolt action phase, I have shot a few CMP Garand Vintage matches, and found my new passion in USPSA action shooting. At the same time, I understand where the other people are coming from. If all you do is shoot bullseye, you can't understand why people would want 30 rounds in a gun. If you are a hunter, you can't understand the deal with box magazine semi auto Saiga 12's. If you are a USPSA shooter, you don't care about hunting laws. AS a result, that is where we get the Old Fudd sentiment. Expand your shooting horizons, shoot with some people, and you will have a newfound appreciation.

 

The shooting community, especially in NJ cannot be fragmented. So we must all try to be open and tolerant of other shooters outside our respective cliques, and must come together. When you are at the range, as long as you are a safe shooter, who give a crap.

 

As far as a comment made earlier about showing off... trust me, no one cares what gun you have, as long as you enjoy it, enjoy it. I really don't care to know, or care to see your tacticool AR. You got to live and train with it. Your Desert Eagle in a 50 Caliber, with gold tiger stripes does not impress me. Will I buy one? Sure, because I want one, but not to make someone envious.

 

Same for posting what guns you have in your signature. Guess what, Ain't going to impress anyone. There are people who have better and more guns. Also, advertising it online.... perhaps not the smartest idea.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

There are issues with all sides of "our groups". And Maks is correct, come out and shoot with some of us and see for yourself DA. HINT HINT

[Parker 213]

Fudd refers to Elmer Fudd - the famous cartoon character "it's duck season, NO! It's wabbit season!" which basically means any old crusty guy

 

OFWG = Old F (I'm gonna say Fat) White Guy

Poor Elmer was a dim-witted fall-guy who was always hoodwinked by Buggs and Daffy. Mister Magoo was the epitome of an old crusty guy!

[DevsAdvocate 112]

DA, Im not saying purchasing isnt at an all time high. My position is that said purchasing isnt mostly driven by interest in the sport. I think those numbers are more driven by massive terrorist attacks on American soil, a general feeling of sociatal uncertainty, a healthy fear of govt gun grabbing, a ton of 2012 type shows and documentaries, and the front and center observations that no one can take care of themselves any more and the govt cant either in a natural disaster. Everyone I know that is a shooter was a shooter before these events. None of the people that have come foward in recent years asking me to indoc them were of th "interest in the sport" catagory, they were all in the latter. (Which is why most of them ended up with a plain 20Ga shotty).

 

I'm not discounting those factors (terrorism, 2012, etc) as being drivers of gun sales, and don't really get why it matters. All I care about is that people go buy guns and learn how to shoot them. I don't give two squats if they want to by a .50BMG rifle because they saw one in a video game and wants to be a sniper. The more the merrier.

 

The whole point of the thread is that the old timers will eventually die off, and the question is: will they take the sport with them by taking their ranges with them, and by alienating the younger folks and the newer shooting disciplines? Guns are one component of the equation, but a place to practice is the other.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

There are issues with all sides of "our groups". And Maks is correct, come out and shoot with some of us and see for yourself DA. HINT HINT

 

Yeah, I get it Ray. I'd love to come out and shoot with you folks. Maybe I'll see a few of you at RTSP. I am also considering doing the carbine course at MDTS as well.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

As others said, try the various disciplines, and you will understand where people are coming from.

 

Just even typing the post, it made me realize how I progressed, from a casual shooter, to I'll admit, I like my action gun games, and dable in other shooting and collecting. I could give a rat's behind what other people own or do, as long as they do it safely.

 

In the past three years, I was blessed with being able to meet many many people, from all sorts of shooting corners and have found a new appreciation with what people can do with firearms. I have tried my hand at Skeet and Trap, I have had my 308 bolt action phase, I have shot a few CMP Garand Vintage matches, and found my new passion in USPSA action shooting. At the same time, I understand where the other people are coming from. If all you do is shoot bullseye, you can't understand why people would want 30 rounds in a gun. If you are a hunter, you can't understand the deal with box magazine semi auto Saiga 12's. If you are a USPSA shooter, you don't care about hunting laws. AS a result, that is where we get the Old Fudd sentiment. Expand your shooting horizons, shoot with some people, and you will have a newfound appreciation.

 

The shooting community, especially in NJ cannot be fragmented. So we must all try to be open and tolerant of other shooters outside our respective cliques, and must come together. When you are at the range, as long as you are a safe shooter, who give a crap.

 

As far as a comment made earlier about showing off... trust me, no one cares what gun you have, as long as you enjoy it, enjoy it. I really don't care to know, or care to see your tacticool AR. You got to live and train with it. Your Desert Eagle in a 50 Caliber, with gold tiger stripes does not impress me. Will I buy one? Sure, because I want one, but not to make someone envious.

 

Same for posting what guns you have in your signature. Guess what, Ain't going to impress anyone. There are people who have better and more guns. Also, advertising it online.... perhaps not the smartest idea.

 

The thing that gets me is: while I don't particularly care or understand why a 'FUDD' likes to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of a rifle by shooting it once every hour, I'm not gonna tell him he can't do it. What I'm trying to get at is: they should also give a bit of lee-way to the newer, younger generation of shooters. Especially if it means gearing ranges and clubs toward accepting those types.