When does a light load start to become too light?

[zoid 24]

Are there any dangers in loading a round too light? I know the risks in

exceeding the max load, but there really isn't a minimum load listed in

load data I've seen. Is there a point where it becomes unsafe?

 

I want to make some very light 45ACP rounds. I'm using around 5.3/5.4gr

Accurate #2 behind a 200gr bullet. Would cutting a whole gr be too much?

 

Also, what pound recoil spring should I get for my 1911 if I shoot light

loads?

 

Thanks for your help.

[tony357 386]

Your load data should have a minimum listed, yes it can be dangerous to go below the recomended data..

[Parker 213]

Load manuals usually list minimum (or starting point) and maximum load tables for a given case/primer/powder/bullet combination. There can also be "reduced loads" listed separately in the manual for a given cartridge. Always follow the load tables. Without question.

 

Large capacity rifle cases underloaded with powder will exhibit a phenomenon known as a secondary pressure excursion (SPE) or secondary pressure rise. (Google it, some interesting stuff there.)

[GRIZ 3,369]

Load manuals usually list minimum (or starting point) and maximum load tables for a given case/primer/powder/bullet combination. There can also be "reduced loads" listed separately in the manual for a given cartridge. Always follow the load tables. Without question.

 

Large capacity rifle cases underloaded with powder will exhibit a phenomenon known as a secondary pressure excursion (SPE) or secondary pressure rise. (Google it, some interesting stuff there.)

 

I've always seen it called secondary explosion effect (SEE).

 

http://africanxmag.com/secondary_explosion_effect.htm

 

Here's one link and as Parker said Google it and you'll get a lot more.

 

I have heard it discussed when using small charges of fast burning powder in a big case (Bullseye in a 38 spl) and reduced charges of ball powder (W296 for example).

 

I have witnessed it in a reduced charge of ball powder in a 270. No it wasn't an overload as a normal load just about filled the case.

[Old School 611]

Though it happens in a fraction of a second the powder in the cartridge burns progressively. If there is too much air in a crtridge case and the powder is not laying against the primer what happens, as I understand it, is the flame from the primer shoots up the center of the cartridge and ignites all or more of the powder than it is supposed to in a properly enhgineered loading.

 

Being that the charge is igniting more powder than if it would if it burned progressively you get the high pressure as the other gentlemen above described.

 

That's why the safest loads are using powders that occupy a good portion of the case capacity.

 

This explanation is only for entertainment only and not holding me to giving any advise for reasons of liability.

[Parker 213]

Though it happens in a fraction of a second the powder in the cartridge burns progressively. If there is too much air in a crtridge case and the powder is not laying against the primer what happens, as I understand it, is the flame from the primer shoots up the center of the cartridge and ignites all or more of the powder than it is supposed to in a properly enhgineered loading.

 

Being that the charge is igniting more powder than if it would if it burned progressively you get the high pressure as the other gentlemen above described.

 

That's why the safest loads are using powders that occupy a good portion of the case capacity.

 

This explanation is only for entertainment only and not holding me to giving any advise for reasons of liability.

You can find documentation on the internet for reduced loads in conjunction with using "fillers" to keep powder close to the primer. Some use Cream of Wheat or cornmeal. Another is polyester, which is what I use in straight-wall large cartridge cases like my .444 Marlin with reduced charges.

 

One product I use:

 

Sticking to the original post, you should not have to deploy these methods. Just stay with the recommended minimum charges in the manual and you will be fine, provided your pistol cycles these loads and works as designed.

[Dan 177]

You can find documentation on the internet for reduced loads in conjunction with using "fillers" to keep powder close to the primer. Some use Cream of Wheat or cornmeal. Another is polyester, which is what I use in straight-wall large cartridge cases like my .444 Marlin with reduced charges.

 

One product I use:

 

 

Sticking to the original post, you should not have to deploy these methods. Just stay with the recommended minimum charges in the manual and you will be fine, provided your pistol cycles these loads and works as designed.

 

Wouldn't that leave a molten plastic residue in your barrel after awhile? Like plastic fouling with shotgun wads?

 

I think a good Cinnamon oatmeal mix would work better , and give your gun smoke a nice Cinna-bun smell... ;p

[Maksim 1,504]

Other issue... it may cycle the gun, but you might have a squib in the barrel. =P

[Old School 611]

Other issue... it may cycle the gun, but you might have a squib in the barrel. =P

 

Excellent point!!!

[Parker 213]

Wouldn't that leave a molten plastic residue in your barrel after awhile? Like plastic fouling with shotgun wads?

 

I think a good Cinnamon oatmeal mix would work better , and give your gun smoke a nice Cinna-bun smell... ;p

I've been using polyester because it gets consumed with the powder charge. I've never noticed any reside while cleaning or after shooting. You only use a wisp of filler. I've used it when loading reduced .44 Mag. loads with light charges of Red Dot, in the .444 with 700X & Blue Dot, and in .30-06 reduced loads with Red Dot or the classic .30-06 reduced load utilizing Bullseye and poly filler under a single 0-buck lead pellet. Some of these loads I've used since the 70's. I've never had an issue and I still possess all my prehensile digits.

[zoid 24]

Other issue... it may cycle the gun, but you might have a squib in the barrel. =P

 

I don't know if you guys get that USPSA magazine, I think Frontsight.

This shooter had a load light enough to put the bullet just to the tip

of the barrel where it was actually sticking almost all the way out and

it cycled another round. Thankfully he caught it,

but man what are the odds?

[tony357 386]

I don't know if you guys get that USPSA magazine, I think Frontsight.

This shooter had a load light enough to put the bullet just to the tip

of the barrel where it was actually sticking almost all the way out and

it cycled another round. Thankfully he caught it,

but man what are the odds?

 

pretty good, cause most likely he changed the recoil spring to shoot lighter loads.

[Col. Mortimer 11]

More problems. Powder needs high pressure to burn properly. Very light loads and with some powders, loads at the low end of the range, may burn incompletely leaving unburned powder and heavy accumulations of carbon.

 

A very light recoil spring may not be strong enough to bring the slide to battery causing the case to rupture. I have read this is more likely to happen in Glocks.

 

Bottome line: Any time you go outside published data or modifying a pistol, you are experimenting with unknown variables and bad things can happen. Consult others that have tried what you plan to do and manufacturers before doing anything.

[zoid 24]

Took it down to 4.9gr from 5.2gr. Shot about 80 rounds last night. All worked

fine, but to be honest not much of a difference in felt recoil. I did a back to

back test with a mag of 5.2gr and one with 4.9gr and if you were to ask me I

would not be able to tell you which is which. But not sure if I really wanna cut

this down anymore.

 

Some guys said a slower burning powder is better for a softer feeling recoil.

Accurate #2 is supposed to be a very fast burning powder I hear.

[Parker 213]

Yes, AA #2 is relatively fast. Powder burn rates: http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

[JonF 79]

Generally with semi-auto's, as you start reducing the powder charge from known "healthy" loads, you generally get slide operational issues before you stick a round in the barrel. Unless you go straight to a true squib load, if you just gradually reduce the charge, you will get all kinds of other failures and still have plenty of "oomph" to clear the barrel. Eventually you will get to that point (And sooner in a rifle), but how much is hard to tell but the sheer lack of any cyclign of the action should be a good indicator.

 

When starting to reduce the charge, you will find that the first thing to be affected is the cycling. First you'll get lethargic ejection as the slide does not reciprocate as forcefully as before. As you reduce the charge even more, you then start to get ejection failiures, aka the Stove Pipe and anything where the spent shell doesn't fully exit the gun. Continuing the trend, you then see failures to feed as the slide may not reciprocate back far enough to strip a new round off the mag and other effects such as failure to c0ck the action. Then you get to the point where the slide may barely move and so what good is a single shot semi-auto even if it recoils like a water gun?

 

You can observe these kinds of effects with the various mid and low velocity and no powder 22LR ammo out there. The low velocity stuff may cycle some guns, but may cause erratic cycling in som guns. The subsonics and "CB" type ammo are guranteed to not function your guns and in some cases, are advised against using in rifles since the CB's may not actually clear a longer barrel. For example, the CCI subsonics will eject, but not feed a new one in my 10/22 since the slide will only go back part way upon recoil whereas the CB's and super Colibri's dont even make the action move!

[zoid 24]

Generally with semi-auto's, as you start reducing the powder charge from known "healthy" loads, you generally get slide operational issues before you stick a round in the barrel. Unless you go straight to a true squib load, if you just gradually reduce the charge, you will get all kinds of other failures and still have plenty of "oomph" to clear the barrel. Eventually you will get to that point (And sooner in a rifle), but how much is hard to tell but the sheer lack of any cyclign of the action should be a good indicator.

 

When starting to reduce the charge, you will find that the first thing to be affected is the cycling. First you'll get lethargic ejection as the slide does not reciprocate as forcefully as before. As you reduce the charge even more, you then start to get ejection failiures, aka the Stove Pipe and anything where the spent shell doesn't fully exit the gun. Continuing the trend, you then see failures to feed as the slide may not reciprocate back far enough to strip a new round off the mag and other effects such as failure to c0ck the action. Then you get to the point where the slide may barely move and so what good is a single shot semi-auto even if it recoils like a water gun?

 

Thanks Jon. Well at 4.9gr which I thought was a huge drop the casings were still flying into face of whoever was standing on my right.

People actually thought my loads felt "hot" but then I was the only guy with a 45 that night so might have just been all relative.

 

Now I got some loaded at 4.6gr. I increased OAL from 1.235 to 1.240 (Min is 1.19" according to load data).

 

I also have some 250gr "Pinbusters" loaded at 4.6gr and 4.3gr. Now those should be interesting.

[Zell959 40]

More problems. Powder needs high pressure to burn properly. Very light loads and with some powders, loads at the low end of the range, may burn incompletely leaving unburned powder and heavy accumulations of carbon.

 

+1

 

I started out a litte TOO light on my first .38 special loads and they were an absolute mess to shoot. Unburned powerder going all over the place, my hands, entc. Not fun to shoot. Brought the charge up and my reloads instantly started shooting cleaner than factory ammo.

[zoid 24]

More problems. Powder needs high pressure to burn properly. Very light loads and with some powders, loads at the low end of the range, may burn incompletely leaving unburned powder and heavy accumulations of carbon.

 

 

Man, you answered my question I've been wondering about for a while. I overlooked this post.

 

I've noticed small granules that looked like powder on my gun and on the shooting table in front

of me. I thought maybe it was powder but I thought that was impossible since the primer/ignition

of the powder would cause all of it to burn.

 

Now with the lighter loads I'm getting more of it. I'm at 4.3gr now. Gun still cycles fine and locks back.

 

Is the only problem with this dirty operation? I don't mind cleaning.

[Sigman 41]

I've loaded a lot of .45 ACP with Acc #2. The min load spec for 200gr. is 4.9gr. with a Hornady XTP so be careful going under this. To me, Acc#2 seems hotter than HP38 (231) when used in the specified load range. I load a lot of .45 with Acc #2 since it shoots good and meters the best out of the powders I use. Ramshot True Blue also meters awesome and similar to Acc #2

 

Try using HP 38 or 231 (same powder) for a softer shooting .45. It also meters pretty well.

[Babaganoosh 192]

When you make really light loads you will notice black on the outside of the fired case. This happens because the lower pressure doesn't expand the case tight enough and gasses blow by staining the case in the process. When this happens clean your chamber and feed ramp more often so it feeds reliably.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

You know it's too light a load when your bullet does this:

[zoid 24]

You know it's too light a load when your bullet does this:

 

Ah! So my aim is great! All the time I though I was missing but the bullets were really bouncing off. I gotta also

protest my USPSA scores as I believe those misses should have been 'A's haha!

 

Oh, and I do notice some burn marks around the case. I won't go any lower then where I have it. It's pretty easy shooting

where it's at. Just a bit dirty.

 

I also think you guys are right, I gotta try some different powders. A buddy of mine gave me some Clays to try out. His

rounds seemed pretty soft so I'm very curious as to how it compares to Accurate.