Hello, just joined. Hire an attorney before application?

[FPIDplease 0]

I tried searching the forums but it seems there are so many common terms that it becomes endless. I would like to Apply for a FPID. I am not a felon. I have never been committed ( voluntary or involuntary) and I have no domestic violence history. I have seen a psychiatrist and therapist for anxiety. I called a NJ Gun Permit attorney and asked if that would be grounds for denial. He states that they can and will find any reason to deny me. Basically, he was implying that without a lawyer, even seeing a psychiatrist to vent, regardless of a diagnosis, or lack of diagnosis, or medication would cause me to be denied. If I understood correctly, he implied that anything and everything will give them the excuse "

public health, safety and welfare.".

On his web site he explains that even if "

You have had any police involvement at any time no matter what happened".

Regardless if there was a conviction, dropped charge, etc.

Basically I am wondering if this guy is correct and would help me obtain my FPID or is he a great business man? How many of you have used an attorney throughout the application process and feel that you would have been denied without the attorney even if you shouldn't have been denied without one.

 

Thanks for your time and look forward to your answers.

 

FPIDplease

[deadeye74 5]

Sounds kind of like an advertising pitch, but question 26 on the application asks the question about if you have been treated by a psychiatrist either in patient or out patient. Of course, since he's looking to make a buck, your not going to get any "free" advice. I would suggest reaching out to NJ2AS and see what they would say. If you saw the doctor like 15 years ago because you were going through a tough time, my opinion would be you are ok. I am guessing your doctor would need to write you a letter of some kind saying you were of sound mind and not a threat.

[FPIDplease 0]

I appreciate the quick response. I also did ask him if I can ask the DR. to write a letter. He said in all his years of practice he's only found 1 willing to do that. That's where he lost me. Wouldn't any doctor be obligated to write that letter if he believed you were not a threat?

[RecessedFilter 222]

I don't know why you are so nervous about this. I take that question (Have you ever been treated by a psychiatrist?) to mean, have you ever gone to a psychiatrist because you felt suicidal, mentally unstable, schizophrenic, etc...negative reasons. Just because you saw a therapist to vent about your anxiety, in my opinion, is not not the grounds for denial.

 

I would just check 'no' for that question.

[FPIDplease 0]

I take that question (Have you ever been treated by a psychiatrist?) to mean, have you ever gone to a psychiatrist because you felt suicidal, mentally unstable, schizophrenic, etc...negative reasons. Just because you saw a therapist to vent about your anxiety, in my opinion, is not not the grounds for denial.

 

I would just check 'no' for that question.

 

Just trying to cover my bases and figure out the proper way to answer "catch all" questions. I don't want to assume and end up in trouble for checking no. I want to follow the process 100%. This way if I end up having to appeal I can at least show my paperwork was filled out 100% and not end up with that ruining everything. That's why I am here. You guys seem to have a lot of experience. Thanks again for the response!

[Texas Shooter 35]

I would just apply for it. Answer truthfully because not doing so can haunt you later. *IF* you get denied because of that, then I'd consider an attorney.

[Socom 19]

ive seen a couple pyschs and been to anger management class two times i have never had a problem

[NJMac 0]

I saw a psychiatrist as a kid for migraines. I explained this to the FID officer and he said he didn't think it applied so suggested I answer no on the form and he'd follow up with me if anything came up. Nothing did. You may want to do the same and just ask.

[Sandy 44]

Are you sure you saw a psychiatrist? Anxiety and stuff like that is usually an outpatient deal with a therapist of some sort , like a psychotherapist. In most cases your first step is to see a therapist or maybe psychologist for treatment..if they feel you have more severe issues going on they will refer you to the psychiatrist , who would more treat things like schizophrenia , bipolar , manic depression , true phobias that compromise your life ..you would see them for diagnosis , then they would refer you to the therapist for mainteneance therapy and you see the actual psychiatrist for follow ups every 3 or 6 months or so. That is how most places are structured ( I have a few in the field in my family) . If you were prescribed meds , you did need to at some point , see an actual psychiatrist .

 

So I would 1) make sure you really saw an actual psychiatrist . Some do routine therapy , but that is not usually the case , especially for some anxiety. It is common for the term to get thrown around loosely and interchanged with all therapists in general. 2) If you did see a psychiatrist , personally I would spend a bit on an attorney . There are HIPPA laws in place when it comes to mental health care..especially for routine stuff as opposed to being treated inpatient etc. I don;t knwo if HIPPA trumps the firearms application process or not , but if I were in the same situation I would ask an attorney.

 

Good luck!

[FPIDplease 0]

Thanks again. I appreciate the thorough responses as vague as I've been. I hoped that I would get answers about the law and I have. I feel that full honest answers backed up with documents from the physician will help more than it would hurt. Hopefully whomever is reviewing the application will appreciate that. I just want to be as thorough as possible because we all know it is difficult enough in NJ. The last thing I want to do is have them feel like I was playing dumb or insulting their intelligence and resources. Great forum!

[XDJohnTact 49]

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your application.

[njpilot 671]

Welcome.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I would answer NO to the question and never look back. This state looks for any reason to deny you. If you check yes then you open a huge can of worms. You are going to need letters from Dr.s and psych evals that are on your dime. Even if they don't deny you, you are going to be jumping thru hoops every time you go for another permit or a change of address. Answer NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

[Vlad G 345]

I know a number of folks who had actual serious long term therapy, came out the other side with the doc's paper work to prove it and had no problems obtaining permits of FIDs. Honestly in this day and age I feel strange and different for never been in therapy, almost everyone else has been

[hd2000fxdl 422]

. Honestly in this day and age I feel strange and different for never been in therapy, almost everyone else has been

 

I think you should go see someone about that.

[raz-0 1,259]

Ok.. it says PSYCHIATRIC, PSYCHIATRIST, or DOCTOR. That means an MD. Implied in that terminology is one having a condition serious enough to warrant treatment with medication. Your average therapist, you are lucky if htey are a PhD or PsyD, usually they have a degree in social work and some certificates.

 

For Q26, if you were not being treated by someone who could prescribe you DIRECTLY (i.e. not by calling up their buddy who finished big boy med school), not checked into mental hospital, or not treated at a mental hospital on an outpatient basis, the answer is no in my opinion as that is what the question specifically asks.

 

If you are on anti-psychotics, MAOIs, seratonin re-uptake inhibitors, anti-anxiety meds like halcyon, lithium or any crap where your perception of reality goes to hell if you come off it because you think you are all better now, or makes you see/hear things, encourages sucidal ideation, or otherwise makes you not interpret reality well at times BECAUSE you are tkaing it, then you should probably answer yes in my opinion.

[Qel Hoth 33]

I would answer NO to the question and never look back. This state looks for any reason to deny you. If you check yes then you open a huge can of worms. You are going to need letters from Dr.s and psych evals that are on your dime. Even if they don't deny you, you are going to be jumping thru hoops every time you go for another permit or a change of address. Answer NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

 

This is dangerous advice.

 

As part of the application process you sign a waiver allowing the PD to look at all mental health records. If they happen to find anything that says you WERE treated and you answered no on the form, you can be looking at being charged with a crime of the 3rd degree, which is the equivalent of a felony, and therefore lose your right to own firearms for the rest of your life.

 

 

(26) Have you ever been attended, treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist or at any hospital or mental

institution on an inpatient or outpatient basis for any mental or psychiatric condition? If yes, give the name and location

of the doctor, psychiatrist, hospital or institution and the date(s) of such occurrence.

 

Depending on how you interpret this, you need not be seen by an MD.

[deadeye74 5]

This is dangerous advice.

 

As part of the application process you sign a waiver allowing the PD to look at all mental health records. If they happen to find anything that says you WERE treated and you answered no on the form, you can be looking at being charged with a crime of the 3rd degree, which is the equivalent of a felony, and therefore lose your right to own firearms for the rest of your life.

 

 

 

 

Depending on how you interpret this, you need not be seen by an MD.

 

I am curious. Who maintains mental health records, the state, your DR, a hospital? I would assume it is safe to say that if you ended up at either a state hospital like Ancora, or at a crises center that would be a locatable record. I could see there being a fine line with a private psychiatrist as to weather or not they had submitted to some database that you were a patient unless you were there for some very serious issues. I don't see a family MD being the type to submit to some mental health database because he gave you a months worth of anti anxiety meds cause your wife left you or someone died, etc.

 

Would be good to know who's maintaing the "list"!

[Qel Hoth 33]

I am curious. Who maintains mental health records, the state, your DR, a hospital? I would assume it is safe to say that if you ended up at either a state hospital like Ancora, or at a crises center that would be a locatable record. I could see there being a fine line with a private psychiatrist as to weather or not they had submitted to some database that you were a patient unless you were there for some very serious issues. I don't see a family MD being the type to submit to some mental health database because he gave you a months worth of anti anxiety meds cause your wife left you or someone died, etc.

 

Would be good to know who's maintaing the "list"!

 

I have no idea who, if anyone, maintains "the list." However, since most medical records have to be in an electronic database by 2013, if I recall correctly, it is possible that they are already in a database somewhere.

 

I would agree that if it was a private doctor, especially if it was a long time ago, the risk is small, but I wouldn't want to risk a 3rd degree conviction on myself just so I can own a gun in PRNJ...

[Babaganoosh 192]

This is dangerous advice.

 

As part of the application process you sign a waiver allowing the PD to look at all mental health records. If they happen to find anything that says you WERE treated and you answered no on the form, you can be looking at being charged with a crime of the 3rd degree, which is the equivalent of a felony, and therefore lose your right to own firearms for the rest of your life.

 

 

 

 

Depending on how you interpret this, you need not be seen by an MD.

 

This is not dangerous advice. Merely going to a psychiatrist does NOT get you put on any lists that would come up on a mental health check. Even if you are prescribed meds you won't be on a list.

[Qel Hoth 33]

This is not dangerous advice. Merely going to a psychiatrist does NOT get you put on any lists that would come up on a mental health check. Even if you are prescribed meds you won't be on a list.

 

List or no, IF he did see a psychiatrist you may have just advised him to commit a 3rd degree crime...

[deadeye74 5]

I have no idea who, if anyone, maintains "the list." However, since most medical records have to be in an electronic database by 2013, if I recall correctly, it is possible that they are already in a database somewhere.

 

I would agree that if it was a private doctor, especially if it was a long time ago, the risk is small, but I wouldn't want to risk a 3rd degree conviction on myself just so I can own a gun in PRNJ...

 

I agree that it may not be worth taking the risk and answering no.

 

The idea that someone is maintaining a "list"seems to break Dr/Patient confidentiality. I agree that the crazies in the world have no place owning firearms. The nut job in AZ who shot all the people at the Giffords rally is recent proof of that. I don't like the idea that there is a general database out there for mental health. If your sane, but have seen a Dr. cause you were having a rough time in your life is a far cry from hearing voices, being suicidal, etc. The nuts should be the ones on the list!

[Maksim 1,504]

Read the question and answer it truthfully. Only you know your exact situation.

[Babaganoosh 192]

List or no, IF he did see a psychiatrist you may have just advised him to commit a 3rd degree crime...

 

If he had or has a full blown Anxiety Disorder then I would say maybe that would be a true statement. To see a Dr for some plain jane anxiety is no reason in my opinion to check off yes for that part of the application.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I agree that it may not be worth taking the risk and answering no.

 

The idea that someone is maintaining a "list"seems to break Dr/Patient confidentiality. I agree that the crazies in the world have no place owning firearms. The nut job in AZ who shot all the people at the Giffords rally is recent proof of that. I don't like the idea that there is a general database out there for mental health. If your sane, but have seen a Dr. cause you were having a rough time in your life is a far cry from hearing voices, being suicidal, etc. The nuts should be the ones on the list!

 

To release those records would be a violation of Hipaa. If someone releases or is forced to release those records they have to inform you within 30 days. If you haven't been notified then you aren't on a "list".

[Qel Hoth 33]

If he had or has a full blown Anxiety Disorder then I would say maybe that would be a true statement. To see a Dr for some plain jane anxiety is no reason in my opinion to check off yes for that part of the application.

 

Are you a judge or lawyer?

 

What happens if somehow the PD does find out, and the prosecutor and judge happen to disagree with your opinion? Anything you sign and submit to a government agency is too dangerous a game for opinion.

 

To release those records would be a violation of Hipaa. If someone releases or is forced to release those records they have to inform you within 30 days. If you haven't been notified then you aren't on a "list".

 

Not necessarily, especially now.

 

Many doctors and hospitals have already migrated to an electronic database, and most doctors and hospitals must do so by 2013. Old records may or may not have to be put into the database, but new records do. It is possible that in the near future the PD will be able to check the database with your mental health check waiver.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Are you a judge or lawyer?

 

What happens if somehow the PD does find out, and the prosecutor and judge happen to disagree with your opinion? Anything you sign and submit to a government agency is too dangerous a game for opinion.

 

 

 

Not necessarily, especially now.

 

Many doctors and hospitals have already migrated to an electronic database, and most doctors and hospitals must do so by 2013. Old records may or may not have to be put into the database, but new records do. It is possible that in the near future the PD will be able to check the database with your mental health check waiver.

 

I don't need to be a judge or a lawyer to give my opinion. There is a big difference with anxiety and an anxiety disorder. from web MD

 

"Anxiety is a normal human emotion that everyone experiences at times. Many people feel anxious, or nervous, when faced with a problem at work, before taking a test, or making an important decision. Anxiety disorders, however, are different. They can cause such distress that it interferes with a person's ability to lead a normal life.

An anxiety disorder is a serious mental illness. For people with anxiety disorders, worry and fear are constant and overwhelming, and can be crippling"

 

So like I said, if it was just some anxiety and he wanted to talk to someone I would check no. If he had an anxiety disorder then check yes or see the lawyer, better yet, go talk to the chief of police. Tell him the situation and see what he thinks you should do.

 

As for the electronic database, the PD doesn't have access to it, and if they did you would be notified within 30 days if they checked your records. Since we haven't heard of this happening yet I am going to say that at this point we are good to go in that respect. When it does start happening then all bets are off.

[Kaiser7 33]

I saw one when I was in third grade because I acted out in school, and had depression issues, I never mentioned it though since it was ten years prior, and I was a kid at the time.

 

Hell, I'd been arrested for getting in a fight in 8th grade, and that didn't come up. Although, I think the police dropped the charges when we mentioned that they didn't read our rights, and apparently it's not legal to tell someone that, "We won't put this on your record if you do some community service for the town." without being sentenced.

[FPIDplease 0]

Great discussion here. As some have mentioned there is no clear answer. To ask the chief or fpid reviewer would raise a red flag and possibly lead to denial or at least restraint against approval. Therefore the question is what consitutes answering yes. Even people on here have conflicting answers and I guess I better go safe and check yes with dr notes etc. Prepared with a lawyer to make sure everything is up to par. I'll either wait till I move out of NJ or pray that I get approved here. It's a "catch all" question. Even taking Xanax after September 11 because your father worked In the world trade center could be enough for a felony if you check no because you technically took medication for mental reasons. Likely? No. Possible? Yes. That's what I've gathered.

 

 

 

Edited for spelling etc. I posted from bed on the cell.

Edited February 9, 2012 by FPIDplease

[Rifleman1 32]

Hello and welcome to the Forums!