Religion in Schools

[this_is_nascar 162]

What's your opinion, in particular to this? Seems like God, Easter and Easter Eggs have been under attack.

 

 

http://www.gloucestercitynews.net/clearysnotebook/2012/04/school-backs-down-and-puts-god-back-in-god-bless-the-usa-httpamacus.html#more

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Separation church and state... doesn't get much simpler then that.

[woodentoe 14]

Separation church and state... doesn't get much simpler then that.

 

And heads exposed all over the internets.

[Kaiser7 33]

I am very religious, I work in a Christian gift store, but I think neutrality is the way to go. Sometimes I think they do come out more aggressively against Christianity than some other faiths. I don't believe they should deny someone their faith, or even pretend it doesn't exist, but I don't think calling stuff "Christmas Break" or putting up a Santa, or something should be considered offensive. Hell, I know if I were a teacher, I'd likely want a small cross, or Scapular on my desk, but I imagine that would be frowned upon. I wouldn't intend to push my faith on others, personally, I feel as though that is not Christian. (Hating others for differences of opinion on such matters is, to me at least, anathema to the teachings of Christ. In fact, though many do not realize it, Islam and Christianity have much in common, the Muslims even tell a tale where they sought refuge in Christian Ethiopia. The Ethiopian king allowed them to stay because, "There is naught but a fine line between our two faiths.")

 

Either way, I don't think it should be forced on the kids, but it shouldn't be totally banned as well. I would pray a rosary before I ate, until the school forced me to stop by threatening detention. I think that often times the separation of church and state is taken too far. It was merely meant to prevent the foundation of a national religion, and to allow for religious freedoms. It was not meant to shame, or condemn others for their faith. I think that in our "Politically Correct" age, we too often take the separation of church and state too far.

 

That being said, one should not be obnoxious with their faith. I find it ironic when Christians use Jesus to justify hatred and anger, when he spoke only of forgiveness and love. At my store, I have a lot of other Christians (honestly, usually born-again) tell me I'm going to hell for being Catholic, or that Catholics are "essentially Satanists."

 

The problem is not with religion, but rather with those who pervert and twist it for their own agenda.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Nice post Kaiser. I appreciate that.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

As an atheist, I believe it it needs to stay out.

 

That being said, I also do not believe any reference to god in pledge, songs, the quarter, etc should be left alone.

 

Atering these things to remove the word god, or change xmas break to winter recess is nonense.

Then again, to me so is religion, but thats my belief.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Separation church and state... doesn't get much simpler then that.

 

Separation of church and state means there shall be no state mandated religion. "God" and "Creator" are clearly mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. The First amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". It has nothing to do with mandating the removal of every religious reference from our everyday lives.

 

I haven't met any normal people who practice a non-Christian religion that were offended by terms such as "Christmas Party". One needs to refer to this now as a "Holiday Party" because radicals demanded the change.

 

By your "simple" interpretation, a school would have to change the title and the words to Handel's Messiah so as not to insult anyone. We should also not teach that many colonies were founded base on religious freedom.

[Recon Racoon 49]

I don't mind religion in schools. I don't mind if a teacher has a cross or other religious artifact on their desk. What I DO mind is when you're forcing me to listen to how I'm wrong for believing what I believe and why your way is the only right way to do it. I also don't like mass prayer in public schools. Doing it at lunch, individually is fine. Just don't force the whole class or lunch room to do it. I go back to the whole 'Don't mess with my believes, I won't mess with yours.'

 

Now the whole other side of the spectrum is the hardcore atheists who want NOTHING involving religion any where near them. Those people give people like me a bad name.

[GRIZ 3,369]

As an atheist, I believe it it needs to stay out.

 

That being said, I also do not believe any reference to god in pledge, songs, the quarter, etc should be left alone.

 

Atering these things to remove the word god, or change xmas break to winter recess is nonense.

Then again, to me so is religion, but thats my belief.

I don't mind religion in schools. I don't mind if a teacher has a cross or other religious artifact on their desk. What I DO mind is when you're forcing me to listen to how I'm wrong for believing what I believe and why your way is the only right way to do it. I also don't like mass prayer in public schools. Doing it at lunch, individually is fine. Just don't force the whole class or lunch room to do it. I go back to the whole 'Don't mess with my believes, I won't mess with yours.'

 

Now the whole other side of the spectrum is the hardcore atheists who want NOTHING involving religion any where near them. Those people give people like me a bad name.

 

Thank you. I totally respect your opinions.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

As an atheist, I believe it it needs to stay out.

 

That being said, I also do not believe any reference to god in pledge, songs, the quarter, etc should be left alone.

 

Atering these things to remove the word god, or change xmas break to winter recess is nonense.

Then again, to me so is religion, but thats my belief.

 

The original pledge never included the word God, it was altered. The altering seems to go in both directions at times. Signs of the times I guess.

 

The original was "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ~ Francis Bellamy

 

I also hear people often say the U.S. is a Christian nation. Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli says differently.

[Recon Racoon 49]

If I'm not mistaken the Pledge was altered to include the word 'God' during the cold war. Or at least thats what I've heard.

[Kaiser7 33]

Haha, with my job, I try to be openminded. I listen to what all religions have to offer. I like Catholcism because they tend to be more open to other faiths (at least now adays, I know many will cite the crusades,which my ancestors took part in). I do not buy into what many claim that, "Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings." On the surface, this is true, but most teachings in various faiths discourage this type of slaughter.

 

Ironically, I'm a biology major, by all reasoning, I should be an atheist. However, learning more about evolution, and even of the beginnings of the universe have done nothing to diminish my faith, they have actually increased them. Of course, I do not believe in a strict interpretation of the bible. Jesus spoke in parables to make his teachings simpler to those he was talking to. For early peoples, concepts of "billions of years" would be hard to understand, especially since many likely could not count in the first place. However, if one looks at the story of creation from a less-strict interpretation, it basically parallels the story of the big bang. First there was nothing, then God created the Earth, then brought forth the plants and animals, and then humans. Also, if one is talking about the concept of time, and "7 days of creation" one must also remember that according to religious teachings, God himself is not bound by time. This is a difficult concept, and, coupled with trying to teach this to people, and with the length of time over which the universe was actually created, it is conceivable that it is far simpler to express a being, who is not bound by time, to have created everything in 7 days.

As an atheist, I believe it it needs to stay out.

 

That being said, I also do not believe any reference to god in pledge, songs, the quarter, etc should be left alone.

 

Atering these things to remove the word god, or change xmas break to winter recess is nonense.

Then again, to me so is religion, but thats my belief.

 

That is the view both Atheists, and people of faith should have. There is a Christian tradition in this country, I like the "In God We Trust" on our money. However, I abhor unsolicited evangelism, and the attempts to force others to convert. Those people, in my opinion, do more harm to faith than good. My take on that situation is that if someone wants to come to faith, I will point them in the direction I think appropriate, and I am more than glad to teach those who are interested the things I know. Both sides need to understand that they are both valid. I personally do not believe Atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, etc. are bound for hell. Surprisngly, this belief of mine is one that is somewhat commonly held by members of the Church. It is more important that one does good, and even if not "Christian" acts in a "Christ-like" way, even if they have no belief in God. That is, if you are a good person, and truly do all you can to help others, than that is what is important. We must not forget all faiths are institutions of God, carried out by fallible man, no one religion has it 100% right. However, if we look at the teachings of various faiths, and use the lessons, and examples to try and better ourselves, the world, and the lives of our fellow man, than that is really the penultimate thing religion can do for you.

 

I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. I apologize for the long posts, but I LOVE having intelligent, philosphical debates on the nature of religion, and things of that nature. If anyone wants to talk this stuff, let me know, I enjoy it.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Separation of church and state means there shall be no state mandated religion. "God" and "Creator" are clearly mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. The First amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". It has nothing to do with mandating the removal of every religious reference from our everyday lives.

 

I haven't met any normal people who practice a non-Christian religion that were offended by terms such as "Christmas Party". One needs to refer to this now as a "Holiday Party" because radicals demanded the change.

 

By your "simple" interpretation, a school would have to change the title and the words to Handel's Messiah so as not to insult anyone. We should also not teach that many colonies were founded base on religious freedom.

 

The point of separation of church and state is to provide equality of religious freedom by having the government not interfere with religion. Which means those who do not believe in god are granted the same freedoms as those who do and respectively amongst each other. In a nut shell, you either acknowledge every religion or lack there of, or you acknowledge nothing. Handel's Messiah has no business being in a public school, unless of course you plan on singing a song from every single religion, and even still what do you do for the non-believers. You either incorporate everyone, or no one. It's not about removing religious reference, its about being fair to everyone equally. If i dont believe in god, it is not fair to me, to have to say god in the pledge of allegiance, and thus it is pushing religious ideology onto me. It's not a big deal to me, because there are better things in my life to worry about, but the fact still remains. When it comes to public schools and national "anthems" we should project the idea of religious freedom by, you guessed it, leaving religion out. You cant possible say we have religious freedom, when particular religions are imprinted in theses things.

[NickySantoro 211]

What's your opinion, in particular to this? Seems like God, Easter and Easter Eggs have been under attack.

 

 

http://www.glouceste...macus.html#more

 

Of course they are because to some they are the work of the devil. Seems like to the same people being an a** bandit is just about perfect. Go figure.

[Sandy 44]

Separation Of Church and State actually has nothing to do with keeping the mention of religion out of schools. It is an ideal set forth by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists basically stating that Government needs to stay out of religion , not the other way around. It is not a law , nor is it in the Constitution.

 

I find that a good majority of Americans are not clear on Separation Of Church and state , where the term comes from and what it means.

 

Which you could interpet as the schools are run by the government and they should not teach religion. And I agree . They should not teach or advise HOW to practice or which religion they feel is right . However, I am all for covering all religions briefly and equally in school for educational purposes only. How else can you teach World History without having a basic knowledge of all the religions and how they practice? How could you cover current events in our world ? They should also cover and respect athiesm , they often do not .

 

This past December my daughter's school covered Christmas , Hanuka , ..a few others ,in a " how the different people in our class celebrate this season " type way. Nothing very religious , it was light on the info , kept fun , dealing more with the traditions in celebrating rather than getting into the religious reasons. Each kid got to talk about their traditions for this month .Age appropriate. I don't think they need more than that until they get into World History.

[rdsmith3 19]

 

I also hear people often say the U.S. is a Christian nation. Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli says differently.

 

Do you read Arabic? Are you sure you know what that treaty says?

[mcbethr 42]

Religion in schools... kind of a touchy topic. Almost as bad as Gun Contr... oh, wait.

[RubberBullets 65]

As a non believer, I still hold true to tradition. People get offended too easily in this country. I spent my life growing up to Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Easter and what not. These are staples of the American education institution. Looking back I would rather not change a thing.

 

While I do not approve of schools pressing students to conform to the christian faith, it would serve as an education non the less. Dont change a damn thing. We have been walking on egg shells for no reason whatsoever. This is the dilution of our society. This is how we teach our children to become watered down social derelicts. When we bow down to the sensibilities of the few, we ruin the masses. If the non believers want equality in the school system, they should also fight to have any federal mandated holiday repealed that has a religious context.

 

Again I favor traditional values, like those I was raised on. I chose to walk a different path in terms of my faith (or lack thereof) but stop with the overbearing PC crap that softens our children and will one day completely sterilize the future of our children. You want education without experience? Go breed robots.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I went to catholic school as will my kids. I'm not really a religious person I just think its a better enviroment. Now as far as public schools I think they are taking the pc to far.

[Fallout 3]

there are so many religions, so many different beliefs whether it be different gods, or just simple alterations within the religion. Who's to teach children religion other than their parents?

 

Religion needs to stay separate from school.

 

There is a difference between being spiritual and being religious. There are some serious religious maniacs and who's to say what religion is correct and which is not?

Oh well they believe this, don't talk to non-believers.

 

Lets just clarify, i believe in god, and i am not an atheist. I just do not believe in people brainwashing others into thinking what they think and to disregard anything else or any other religion or anything anyone else has to say.

Some people believe that they aren't doing enough for god or this or that, and they make their whole life about it because they "know" they are going to "heaven."

Some people live out their lives and are happy all the way through without all the religious stuff. Who's to say they are wrong?

No one has the authority or the power to say no to what you think, it's all brainwashed people that think that they are right. Religion is nothing to me other than a very controversial subject.

[Bully 749]

I'm a believer. However, this...

 

http://www.venganza.org/

 

C

[bbk 188]

The whole topic is, agreeably, complex. For example, one small aspect is how much of an impact the Protestant Work Ethic has played in the development and formation in this country-- structurally, culturally, etc. Whether its the values that people consider "American" or even how the school year is structured physically, it would be difficult to ever really "separate" religion and school as the whole concept is quite embedded. Is this good or bad? I don't know, I'm not really religious so I'm not one to judge. I respect all religions, and think they should all be given the fair neutrality in the public sphere.

[dave545 15]

I believe religion like all else is an answer to mans fear of what they do not understand. In earlier cultures they had a god for everything, such as the sun, moon, wind and etc, this is because they did not understand how they worked. The human species does not feel comfortable with the unknown so they put a god to everything that could not be explained. As times progressed as did technology people then learned why the sun was seen and why it was not and why we saw the moon. We learned that we were not the center of the universe or galaxy but instead there is a super massive black hole in nearly all known galaxies and that is what we all revolve around. with this we have less and less gods over time. what is one of the main answers that is left to be answered??? Of course it is the meaning of life and what happens after death. This is why we still have god, he gives us heaven and our mission in life is to follow his teaching and be a good christian so we can ultimately achieve eternal life in the afterlife, or suffer eternal damnation in hell if we do not follow his teachings. These teachings are nothing more than a basic set of morals that are laws are practically based off of today. These morals that were created were a way to try and create a sense of order so there was not anarchy because people feared that if they did not abide by the bible and the commandments they would be sent to hell for eternity.

 

Also in regards to religion most of them are the same and most of them have the same teachings. How can people claim that their religion is correct while everyone else that does not belong to that religion is wrong. All of the books of worship are written by mans hand and thusfore can be tainted because man is not perfect but instead man is flawed and can be tempted.

 

I myself believe in what we hold scientifically true, with the images of the deep space pictures taken by the hubble telescope and that there are billions of earth like planets in our galaxy alone that could possibly support life and the other billion billions of planets in our ever expanding universe that can support life the arguement that we are the only life out there is ludacris. I believe that we make our own destiny and that we are in fact our own god. In fact the definition of god is "one whom gives us life" which is technically our parents. as our technology and understanding of the universe expands religion in educated areas is dying. I look around at my peers and see that religion is almost non existent.

 

On another note you know the static that we hear o the radio and see on T.V.'S that dont have reception is actually residual radiation in the atmosphere that is left over form the big bang. thats a little fun fact lol.

 

I do love having educated conversations with people about religion because i do not like to bash religion, in fact i like to be educated on the matter as to broaden my understanding of the universe, religion and why people follow it and possibly help others understand my views if they are interested.

 

However this country was founded on these morals and i believe peoples religion should be left alone. If the government is not pushing religion on others than that is seperation of church and state. The government can not endorse religious activities or fund them by any means, however the radicals on all sides are going crazy. we are trying to be too politically correct and dont want to hurt other peoples feelings. This is creating a sense that everyone is right and there are no losers like every kid in a tournament or event gets a ribbon or trophy. this is a problem for our society because it is not teaching people that there are winners and losers in everything and people do not know how to deal with losing and when they dont win or receive something they do not understand why. It is creating a whiny culture today, which irks me.

 

However dont fix what isnt broken, it never hurt anyone before and is not hurting anyone now. If it does not interfere with your life leave it alone it is none of anyones concern. such as marriage laws, abortion, or any other idea that is based on faith or any other type of thinking. Life is too short and if it is not hurting anyone and you are not involved do not become involved. people have the right to the pursuit of happiness and that should not be infringed because someone doesnt believe in their decisions on moral grounds. It is not up to the bystanders to decide how others live their lives but up to the individual. as i said life is too short to go around being mad at others and things we can not control. We all have one life and it is shortening by the second, so hold and treasure everything that is dear to you and do not forget what really matters in life by worrying about trivial nonsense that one should not worry about.

 

So remember live your own lives and believe what you want to believe, If others are happy doing things differently than you are then let them because they also have a life and their own mentality and they are trying to achieve happiness as well.

 

Everyone have a happy day and life and remember what really is important and matters in your life and once you find it fight with everything that you are and have to keep it because that is all that really matters in life.

[scig 12]

This is a gun forum, but the wealth of knowledge that I have just read makes me realize it is much more.

I congradulate all my fellow forum members on the their honesty, knowledge, and their beliefs.

 

Scig

[johnp 45]

I believe religion like all else is an answer to mans fear of what they do not understand. In earlier cultures they had a god for everything, such as the sun, moon, wind and etc, this is because they did not understand how they worked. The human species does not feel comfortable with the unknown so they put a god to everything that could not be explained.

 

+1

 

Very well said sir.

 

 

johnp likes this

[bbk 188]

Religion has different contexts for different cultures, though, yes, I do believe there are some universals (which are more human truths than cultural). A universal truth that has different specific meanings is the argument of power and agency. In the majority of monotheistic religions, religion has historically been a source of power. In more shamanistic/druidism cultures, religion (though that is a pejorative way of putting it as these cultures don't label their beliefs as "religion," but instead that label is attached as a way of understanding "the other" by outsiders) is instead seen as a source of agency-- though power of course still plays a large part.

 

However, the matter of the esoteric comes into question. What legitimizes a monotheistic religion is what makes a shamanistic and/or polytheistic religions (or any belief system for that matter) as legitimate-- which is simply faith. The fear complex is interesting because it is arguably attached to the binary way of thinking... good vs. evil, heaven vs. hell, known vs. unknown, etc. And in fact this same binary is applied to certain systems that aren't binaries at all-- yin yang for example. Many believe that yin yang (Daoist belief) is a straightforward 50/50 split, when in fact yin yang resembles a more fluid concept (like tidal waters as a concrete example)... so, it could be 50/50, 40/60, 80/20, etc., with the stress that there is always the whole, and that yin and yang (respectively) co-exist, and can be imbalanced. This break in systematic binary thinking has occurred slightly, arguably with the post-modern movement, where people accept "greys" (arguably as a way of legitimizing their focus on the self vs. the greater whole). Yea, my brain hurts typing this, I'll stop at that.

[dave545 15]

I agree with what you are saying about the grey area and the ying and yang with possible truths from both sides. That is also something that i ponder, that not all o fthis was created by something but what if we like we do with other more inferior species are almsot a test or an experiment. With there being infinite dimesnions whose to say that we ourselves are not a dimension that was made up by another culture or being to see how life progresses. They than would be our god creating the first types of life on this planet but they did not create all, that could be a possible imbalance that you speak of in other terms.

 

As you stated in the beginning about control and power, the church in europe was the most powerful organization that was about at that time. In many cases the king would even seek advice formt he church and if the church did not approve he would not go through with actions.

 

The use of Faith is a brilliant tactic as well, faith is an idea that is not tangible, it can not be seen, tasted, felt, smelt, or heard but instead you just have to believe in it. This in my opninion is why faith is used so much in religion because they have no proof or evidence and if you requested proof or evidence than you did not trully believe. If you did not have faith than you were a blasphemist and your sould was damned to hell for not having faith in god and questioning him. when you do not allow questions than your word becomes law. This is why religion has so much power becasue there is no room for questioning but instead only faith is allowed.

 

That reminds me of a story that my teacher had told me in highschool, tiny bit off topic from religion but everytime i tell this story my hair stands on end, my teacher told us of a dream that he had. In this dream his parents were alive (in real life they were dead) and they were sitting in his living room and his sister was over. In the middle of this dream he realized he was dreaming because his parents were alive. He started to laugh in his dream and his sister asked what was so funny, he than responded with im laughing because i am dreaming. she said no your not dreaming why do you say that, and he responded because mom and dad are dead but they are right here now so i must be dreaming and i need to wake up now. His sister than began to cry and he said whats wrong why are you crying, she said becasue im going to die. He then told her that she wasnt going to die and that she lives next door and he will see her in the morning when he wakes up, and she responded no that is your real sister, i am your dream sister when you wake up i am going to die. At this point he woke up in a cold sweat and tears unbelievable of the dream he had just had. and yes i do have goosebumps now lol.

 

This story however, mirrors the alternate dimension theory that i spoke of, your dream worlds could be alternate dimensions and your brain is creating them. Your brain is so powerful that it can create full landscapes and other people's personalities and how they react to situations that they encounter in your dream world.

 

In regards to alternate dimensions it is believed that every single tiny fraction of time is another dimesnion in itself that is always being played over and over again and we are just moving through these little fragments of time but they are always occuring before, after and while we are currently living them, so in theory everything is a present in one dimesion or another.

 

Another possibility is that none of this is real, it is possible that we became so advanced that we possibly and again this is such a crazy theory but hey who are we to say its false, that we became so advanced that we created a computer that is so complex that we uploaded our thoughts and personalities on it and it is right now generating all that we see and do and we are really now just proccesses in this computer.

 

Or could we possibly be having a dream right now, im sure all of you have had dreams in dreams (they are really fun it feels like you are sleeping for days lol). what if this right now is a dream and your whole life that you are now living is a dream and that all of our environment and everyone that we are in contact with are in fact just renditions of things and people we know in the "real world" and our mind is making all of this up right now. As our brains do now when we sleep they create other people, situations and personalities that we interact with who is to say that this right now is not one of those renditions, and that in our deaths we are really just waking up form a sleep and that we will go on and have another day and than go to sleep again that night to have another life inside of that dream. The dreams that we have when we sleep right now might already be dreams in dreams and that is why most nights you do not have or remember dreams because they really did not happen because you are already dreaming right now.

 

pretty crazy stuff i know but this is what really intrigues me and i cant get enough of this stuff lol. if you really think about the universe our lives and what happens after death is can generate some fear, we really have no clue what happens to our minds and our beings after death and thatfaith is all that we have to answer that fear that is generated. What if there is no after life and there is only darkness what if there is nothing after this life forever, but then again how long is forever and if it doesnt end that is it really even a reality.

 

Alot of What if's and no answers so now i demand some answers lol

[johnp 45]

Sounds like the plot to Inception.

[dave545 15]

not really some similar ideas and concepts but very different.

[johnp 45]

That was a joke, the dream inside of dream comment sounded just like Inception.