tough decision for daughter

[Destinydog 9]

I submit a letter with my permit applications telling them not to contact my employer, as my employer will not fill out the form and return it as they will not answer the questions they ask. I have never been denied or had my permits delayed.

[djg0770 481]

Son of a 26 or 27 yr now retired teacher, so I understand your predicament better than most.

 

1) You could delay your application until you are tenured.

2) What Destiny Dog mentioned above is an alternative as are providing pay stubs to prove employment directly to the detective in charge, or just talking to the detective in charge to explain the situation clearly.

3) Despite us having our rights, these school administrators will do whatever they want, especially until you are tenured. Certainly not legal but NJ IS a right to work state.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I completely understand the situation. Some one else mentioned this, and it's probably the most accurate. It ALL depends on the town your applying in. If they are known for contacting AND disclosing info, either way i would say not a chance in hell should she apply. If they call just to verify she works there, then by all means go for it. Maybe she can talk to the officer who is doing the application, and get a good understanding of how they plan on verifying employment. IMO you can just assume the people getting the verification in the school system will not be happy one way or another to see something like that roll in the door, even if they aren't anti-gun, they will NOT take likely to the situation. The PD shouldn't be doing anything more then verifying you work there. In my town, my boss got a phone call, asked if i worked there, and THE END. Some towns send out a friggen question-air.

[TK421 2]

Has there been a documented case where someone was harrassed or terminated from their job following a town sending a freaking questionnaire to an applicant's employer. I bet this would make one hell of a law suit.

[heaterbob 53]

This is America she should stand up for her rights.

[woodentoe 14]

She should do whatever she feels comfortable doing. I would talk to the chief at the town and see if that puts her at ease. But no self righteous keyboard jockey here is going to take up a collection if she suffers retribution from the employer.

 

I have the same reluctance in my business. I happened to get my FID at a time when I was self employed. If I were an employee in my line of work, I'd think long and hard of the risks of retribution.

 

At least as a teacher, post tenure, there is precious little they can do to you under the table. It all has to be publicly aired.

[lunker 274]

As a teacher, until you have tenure, your employment is at the discretion of your Board Of Ed. They can fire you without ever giving a specific reason. As a former teacher, my advice would be to wait until you get tenure. It sucks, but it would be very difficult to prove that the permit was the reason they took action against you.

[djg0770 481]

As a teacher, until you have tenure, your employment is at the discretion of your Board Of Ed. They can fire you without ever giving a specific reason. As a former teacher, my advice would be to wait until you get tenure. It sucks, but it would be very difficult to prove that the permit was the reason they took action against you.

 

That was my point as well. Heck they can even make a teacher's life hell with bad evaluations even if they are not deserved, there seems to be no way to overturn a bad evaluation and they go on a teacher's permanent record.

 

I would recommend going to the investigating detective and feeling him out first.

[SgtToadette 59]

It's really rather sad that this kind of situation exists in NJ. People should not have to fear for their livelihood to take part in a constitutional right. After reading everyone's responses, I have to agree that it depends on how the local PD goes about the verification and how the school receives the information. I don't know the PD or school district so I don't want to even entertain my opinions on what I think would happen or what you should do. All I will say is that both the PD and the School district would be in legal hot water should termination occur, IMHO. Granted, you would probably have to prove that the reason for termination is directly related to the application. Still, that's getting into specifics of situations that haven't even occurred and have interminable odds of occurring.

 

I wish you the best in this situation, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to ask the PD a few questions.

[djg0770 481]

The problem is that without tenure, no reason needs to be given for termination. NJ is a right to work state.

[Piranha21 0]

I am also an elementary teacher. It so happens that my principal was a member of her high school shooting team and her father is an NRA instructor. Got lucky on that one. Have her put the actual school address (not the board of Ed building because you don't know who will look at it). Mine was addressed with my name on it so it was put in my mailbox. She can then take it herself to a principal or even a secretary. (I did once because my principal was out that day). Hope that helps. Nothing to worry about.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I am also an elementary teacher. It so happens that my principal was a member of her high school shooting team and her father is an NRA instructor. Got lucky on that one. Have her put the actual school address (not the board of Ed building because you don't know who will look at it). Mine was addressed with my name on it so it was put in my mailbox. She can then take it herself to a principal or even a secretary. (I did once because my principal was out that day). Hope that helps. Nothing to worry about.

 

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

 

My son went to a High School that accepted ONLY 40 freshmen per school year, county-wide. His school is on a college campus, near one of the entrances.

 

The Principal was High Power Rifle Match Director for a well-known Rifle and Pistol Club. Gym Teacher was a hunter and shooter.

 

Bottom-line, you never know how many "gun people" you work right next to. Right here in NJ!

 

Dave

[302w 83]

I would casually ask the detective what exactly the school will receive. All of the paperwork my friends and I have received for one another mentioned P2P's or something. If the detective would send something not entailing any details... I would go ahead.

 

If it is abseloutely necessary that your school gets a letter about your FID, I would wait until you have tenure. All it takes is one person to think you are an EVIL CRAZY SHOOTER and you could be seeking a new job in June, or a month before tenure. It is a crappy situation but the school needs no reason to not offer you tenure.

 

I know the word went around my crappy retail job a few years back that I was "armed" when I applied for my FID. I wont be applying for any P2P's when/if I go for a teaching position.

[johnp 45]

IMO, I would put down unemployed or self-employed. I know this has been said already and the Nervous Nancys said OMG that is illegal and all that. Put realistically what are the chances the detective is going to search your tax records to see if you are lying about your employment status? In the big picture of things what does employment have anything at all to do with firearm ownership. IMO, the detective is more concerned with running the background check, running the fingerprints through, and checking over the reference letters.

 

Could the detective legally see your tax records to verify your employer? How would they catch you if you "lied"?

 

 

I'm probably going to catch shit for this post but I am honestly trying to be realistic here and not play the what-if game.

[woodentoe 14]

This is certainly an option. However, I consider lying on the form to be the ultimate "what if" game. What if I just falsify information on a document that I sign saying all the information is truthful? Will I be caught?

 

Certainly we all can agree that the employment part of the app is clumsy, illegal and open to wide abuses. However, the fact remains that in this state, the law requires you to disclose the name of your employer for whatever reason so that employment can be verified. My opinion is that the law sucks but if you want to live in this state, you should adhere to the law. I think anyone using sound judgment.will not falsify this information because though you may get away with it... You're running the risk of being denies access to firearms evermore AND if it comes to light publicly, the employer will know that you tried to access a firearm illegally.

[PK90 3,573]

IMO, one should answer all the questions truthfully and let the chips fall where they may. No special treatment should be asked for nor be given by the PD. If a line is crossed during the process, i.e. notarized reference letters, employee references, background disclosure, one should then go on the offense and take action.

[siderman 1,138]

Nice to see a lot of reasonable input/ideas here. I do see a commonality of thought here from those in, related to or would be in the educational system itself- dont push the issueat least for now and that speaks volumes.Also see the retaliation route of lawsuits. not something I wish for my daughter(or anyone) currently who is just trying to establish her life & carreer these days, dont need the added stress. Not easy these days, especially around here where we live, very competitive.Anyway its all premature speculation now and we will go forth with excactly what we contemplated- talk to our CLEO first. At least I'm gonna try as we have been in transition lately with our retiring CLEO using up his taxpayer funded,entitled and accumulated time off. We've had a acting chief(who wouldn't/couldnt sign my pp extension- another story...) so any past policys may be irrelevant. This conversation may be tmro, next week or next year, whatever. I reminded my little girl she has the rest of her life to acquire a FPID but not so much a carreer.

[johnp 45]

My question kind of got lost amongst my opinion; does the investigating detective have anyway of verifying employment other then sending them a reference paper?

 

Someone mentioned taxes, does a leo doing a background check for an FID have access to an applicants tax returns/history? I don't remember ever checking or initialing a box that said my tax history was able to be seen during the background check.

[woodentoe 14]

I don't think so. Logic would dictate that submission of a few most recent paystubs would verify employment. However, that would be at the discretion of the CLEO and as in pk90's post: give preferential treatment not extended to others.

 

Realize too, as I'm sure you do, that the REASON for verifying directy with the employer is to DISCOURAGE you from applying. It serves no other useful purpose that I can think of. Can anyone think of one?

[johnp 45]

I don't think so. Logic would dictate that submission of a few most recent paystubs would verify employment. However, that would be at the discretion of the CLEO and as in pk90's post: give preferential treatment not extended to others.

 

Realize too, as I'm sure you do, that the REASON for verifying directy with the employer is to DISCOURAGE you from applying. It serves no other useful purpose that I can think of. Can anyone think of one?

 

BINGO BANGO!!! That's the only reason that I could think of.

 

 

But my point about the taxes was if you did "lie" on an official application, (it's against the law and could negatively effect you), how would the detective catch you "lying" if he is unable to access your tax history?

[Dan 177]

It is shameful that we have to even worry about this. My friend in Rahway gets a separate illegal form for an "employment background check" that he fills out for P2Ps. They call and let his employer in NYC know that he is applying for a pistol permit. The point is, do not put it past the investigator from doing this even without the extra illegal (joke really) form. Unless there is a SOP or law preventing them from doing so with prescribed penalties that the investigator is not immune to , they will continue this practice.

 

The bottom line is that we cannot stop this invasion of privacy, we can only react via lawsuits which cost big $$$, and the damage is already pretty much done. The only real easy/viable option for your daughter is to somehow be affiliated as an employee or owner in another company (registered company with tax ID and stuff), so she could list that as her employer without white lies.

[shizzoizzo7 6]

I too am a female in my mid 20's. I was leery about the owner of the company knowing so on my form I put the company/address/ and attn:

 

I used someone at the same level as me as opposed to my bosses name (perhaps a classroom aide or another teacher that you are friendly with?)

 

For my town it was just a form letter with confirmation questions.

 

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