Why the restrictions on JHP ammo?

[Old Dog 19]

I never figured out why NJ has restrictions about carrying JHP ammo. It is now common knowledge that they are safer and more effective. Gone are the days when they were called cop killers and dum dum bullets. I do not understand why bullets that have less chance of penetrating objects and people, and therefor less collateral damage, would not be preferred over FMJ that can penetrate a lot further and through more kinds of materials?

 

Perhaps I should not be using the word reason and NJ Gun laws in the same sentence but I have always been curious as the reason for the restrictions on JHP use for carry. If it is something stupid like they are considered more deadly than FMJ bullets I give up on NJ entirely as the use of deadly force implies deadly force and how can one bullet kill someone more than another?

[vladtepes 1,060]

the law involving carrying impacts a very small segment of people...

 

LEO carries HP ammo..

regular citizens can't carry...

 

the reason is who the hell knows.. the obvious is just that there is some stigma with the trauma that HP ammo can cause and therefor is banned due to being "scary"

[ryan_j 0]

Because they can and because they could say they banned "cop killer" ammo.

[JeffreyDV 4]

I had heard the reason is that the bullets fragments could cut through a surgeon's glove exposing him/ her to disease. This "fact" has never been proven. As Vladtepes said, it is a moot point anyway since pretty much no one in NJ is allowed to carry anyway. It's not like the criminal illegally carrying would care whether or not he/ she is breaking the law by having hollow points in their gun they are carrying illegally anyway.

[Candide 0]

I had heard the reason is that the bullets fragments could cut through a surgeon's glove exposing him/ her to disease. This "fact" has never been proven. As Vladtepes said, it is a moot point anyway since pretty much no one in NJ is allowed to carry anyway. It's not like the criminal illegally carrying would care whether or not he/ she is breaking the law by having hollow points in their gun they are carrying illegally anyway.

 

All bullets fragment when they hit something

[EchoMirage 137]

I had heard the reason is that the bullets fragments could cut through a surgeon's glove exposing him/ her to disease.

 

 

that urban legend goes back to the 90s and the shooting with black talons. supposedly, it was reported that black talons were 'exploding bullets', and one 'went off while a surgeon was examining a victim' or something to that effect.

[illy 1]

It also lets prosecutors add a separate charge to a firearms arrest.

That said, I've seen people charged with possession of HPs where no gun was involved (one had a couple of rounds on the floorboard of his car during a traffic stop, another had one in his pocket when he was arrested on something else).

[illy 1]

related question: I know hollow points are legal to purchase, transport, and use at a range. Does anyone know of any case law or rules/laws regarding use in a home defense situation?

[Howard 538]

I had heard the reason is that the bullets fragments could cut through a surgeon's glove exposing him/ her to disease. This "fact" has never been proven. As Vladtepes said, it is a moot point anyway since pretty much no one in NJ is allowed to carry anyway. It's not like the criminal illegally carrying would care whether or not he/ she is breaking the law by having hollow points in their gun they are carrying illegally anyway.

 

That makes zero sense unless these are truly smart bullets that know not to cut a surgeon when fired by a cop but are able to cut the surgeon when fired by a regular citizen.

[PK90 3,573]

related question: I know hollow points are legal to purchase, transport, and use at a range. Does anyone know of any case law or rules/laws regarding use in a home defense situation?

 

Possession of HP bullets is only allowed under the exemptions. There is no law banning the use in any circumstances.

[ryan_j 0]

I had heard the reason is that the bullets fragments could cut through a surgeon's glove exposing him/ her to disease. This "fact" has never been proven. As Vladtepes said, it is a moot point anyway since pretty much no one in NJ is allowed to carry anyway. It's not like the criminal illegally carrying would care whether or not he/ she is breaking the law by having hollow points in their gun they are carrying illegally anyway.

 

If that was the case they'd ban or restrict fragmenting ammo. They don't.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

i had an ffl recently tell me that hp were legal......but that they carried a separate charge if used in a crime?

[JeffreyDV 4]

I'm not saying I believe the story just saying what I heard. Kind of like when they outlawed silicone breast implants because they could leak and cause cancer. There was never a case of that happening but people believed the hype and they were outlawed.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

They're restricted because the legislators did not educate themselves to all the facts regarding hollow point bullets and instead relied on stigma, hearsay, emotion and paranoia in drafting the legislation.

 

I think the fact that hollow points are banned in international warfare under the Hague convention contributes to the stigma associated with them, but yet they are the duty ammo of nearly every single police department.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I had heard the reason is that the bullets fragments could cut through a surgeon's glove exposing him/ her to disease.

 

That is pretty much a BS reason whoever made it up. Military surgeons have been removing much more jagged and sharper pieces of metal shrapnel for over 200 years since the invention of the exploding artillery shell.

 

 

that urban legend goes back to the 90s and the shooting with black talons. supposedly, it was reported that black talons were 'exploding bullets', and one 'went off while a surgeon was examining a victim' or something to that effect.

 

The Black Talons had what appeared as saw teeth on the edge of the hollowpoint. Someone said they would "cut through someone like a buzzsaw...", which, of course, they did no and acted like a hollowpoint bullet.

 

It also lets prosecutors add a separate charge to a firearms arrest. That said, I've seen people charged with possession of HPs where no gun was involved (one had a couple of rounds on the floorboard of his car during a traffic stop, another had one in his pocket when he was arrested on something else).

 

When the hollowpoint law was first passed I have personal knowledge that some were charged with only possession of hollowpoints. These were circumstances where the bad guy had the chance to ditch his gun but not the spare rounds in his pocket. The AG put out instructions to stop doing this and only use it as an add on charge. This is the way I've seen it used for over ten years.

 

I have heard the story of someone being arrested for a hollowpoint rolling around the floor of his car or forgotten in their pocket for years. Please show me proof that this happened (newspaper article, police or court document). Not "well Joe at the gun shop told me...". I have heard this "arrested for one hollowpoint only" stuff for years and no one has been able to provide proof of any such arrest occuring.

 

I'm really anxious to see this "arrested for one hollowpoint" case.

 

 

related question: I know hollow points are legal to purchase, transport, and use at a range. Does anyone know of any case law or rules/laws regarding use in a home defense situation?

 

As was said before if you are somewhere where you are legally possessing hollowpoints, you can use them. The laws only limit where you can possess them not how you use them. Laws usually spell out what you can't do not what you can do. There is no case law on this as no one was charged with possession of hollowpoints in a legit SD shooting..

 

i had an ffl recently tell me that hp were legal......but that they carried a separate charge if used in a crime?

 

They are legal to possess as outlined. Yes they are used as a add on charge in a crime.

[Old Dog 19]

the law involving carrying impacts a very small segment of people...

 

LEO carries HP ammo..

regular citizens can't carry...

 

the reason is who the hell knows.. the obvious is just that there is some stigma with the trauma that HP ammo can cause and therefor is banned due to being "scary"

 

I can buy that scary argument as when I lived in NJ they banned me from being seen in public naked.

[vladtepes 1,060]

They are legal to possess as outlined. Yes they are used as a add on charge in a crime.

 

I used to believe that.. but I no longer think that is the case..

 

for example.. some hoodlum is stopped on the street.. and through being searched it is found that he has a pocket full of HP ammo.. I would say that in itself is a crime.. providing it is not an exempted location... there is no need for a first charge.. thus not an add on charge..

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

I used to believe that.. but I no longer think that is the case..

 

for example.. some hoodlum is stopped on the street.. and through being searched it is found that he has a pocket full of HP ammo.. I would say that in itself is a crime.. providing it is not an exempted location... there is no need for a first charge.. thus not an add on charge..

 

You are correct that can happen with the law as it is written. However, it was in the late 90s the NJ AG put out instriuctions not to charge with the hollowpoint charge only.

 

This also how someone could be charged with the legendary one hollowpoint on the floor of the car. Still waiting for that case to be posted.

 

To my knowledge the current AG has not changed the policy as far as charging someone under this law.

[PK90 3,573]

DOCUMENTATION???? or it didn't happen.

[Old Dog 19]

DOCUMENTATION???? or it didn't happen.

 

PICTURES or it is not a hollow point!

[GRIZ 3,369]

DOCUMENTATION???? or it didn't happen.

 

If you're asking me to produce documentation over 15 years old from the NJ AGs office when I was a Fed that didn't enforce that law I can't do it. This is what I had been told by the state and local guys I worked with. They had been charging people with only the hollowpoint law and then stopped doing it.

 

The only proof I can offer is find me any cases where someone was arrested only for the hollowpoints in the past 10-15 years.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

because it's armor piercing... didn't you know that!!!??!??!?!?

[Old Dog 19]

If you're asking me to produce documentation over 15 years old from the NJ AGs office when I was a Fed that didn't enforce that law I can't do it. This is what I had been told by the state and local guys I worked with. They had been charging people with only the hollowpoint law and then stopped doing it.

 

The only proof I can offer is find me any cases where someone was arrested only for the hollowpoints in the past 10-15 years.

 

I have to just remind you that as a federal officer you know that hearsay is inadmissible as evidence. Just watched three CNN reporters make themselves look like fools for reporting for authority that a suspect has been arrested in the Boston Marathon bombing based on a reliable source. Turned out to be wrong. That is the problem with hearsay, no matter the source.

 

On the other hand, lack of documentation does not mean something is not true; just unproven.

[vladtepes 1,060]

If you're asking me to produce documentation over 15 years old from the NJ AGs office when I was a Fed that didn't enforce that law I can't do it. This is what I had been told by the state and local guys I worked with. They had been charging people with only the hollowpoint law and then stopped doing it.

 

The only proof I can offer is find me any cases where someone was arrested only for the hollowpoints in the past 10-15 years.

 

with all due respect... the notion that something you were told over a decade ago would supersede the law as it is written is not a point I would hang my freedom on...

 

the law as it is written is the law as I follow...

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

I have to just remind you that as a federal officer you know that hearsay is inadmissible as evidence. Just watched three CNN reporters make themselves look like fools for reporting for authority that a suspect has been arrested in the Boston Marathon bombing based on a reliable source. Turned out to be wrong. That is the problem with hearsay, no matter the source.

 

On the other hand, lack of documentation does not mean something is not true; just unproven.

 

If you are familiar with the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure you are also aware that hearsay is acceptable in all stages of prosecution except the trial. There are also some instances where hearsay is admissible during the trial. Hearsay is also acceptable in developing probable cause.

 

 

with all due respect... the notion that something you were told over a decade ago would supersede the law as it is written is not a point I would hang my freedom on...

 

the law as it is written is the law as I follow...

 

vlad, I don't expect anyone to do anything else than follow the law. I am posting this to explain the lack of arrests for that single hollowpoint bullet rolling around.

 

That is also the problem with a law that is being governed by an appointed official's policy.

[Cixelsid 1]

Why? Because they cannot ban all ammo outright. If they could, they would.

[Spartiati 63]

Because they couldn't restrict all ammo.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Because apparently they're designed to kill people...

[illy 1]

Sorry, missed the request for the cases. I'll look them up.

In the meantime, FWIW, I saw them myself at work, not secondhand. One guy (PA resident) got PTI, don't remember the other disposition.

[illy 1]

These aren't the cases I was referring to, but nevertheless.... No guns found in either case:

 

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.290351

 

Rapper Juelz Santana is expected to appear in municipal court in New Jersey on Wednesday after police pulled him over for driving with a suspended license and found marijuana and hollow-point bullets in his Bentley, the Daily News has learned.

 

 

http://www.courierpo...llets-Pine-Hill

 

Carter originally gave police false identification to the officer. He was placed under arrest and during the course of the traffic stop, police found 37 packets of heroin, 44 jars of marijuana and 16 hollow point bullets.

 

EDIT: Adding a 3rd article (loaded mag, no gun)

 

http://www.lehighval...t_with_ten.html

 

 

When police spoke with Watson, they saw in plain view a "Glock pistol magazine loaded with hollow point ammunition in the driver's side-door compartment."

Watson was not in possession of a weapon.

Watson told police he owned the magazine but forgot to remove it from his vehicle.

He was arrested and charged with unlawful possession of 10 rounds of federal hydro shock ammunition.

 

EDIT #2: Sorry to keep adding on, just pointing out that it's not a rare occurrence. This guy was arrested on multiple charges (none of them a firearm). Pled only to the hollow points:

 

http://www.app.com/a...w-point-bullets