A visible gun case is probable cause for a search? Only in NJ.

[ryan_j 0]

http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Court-upholds-TX-man-s-conviction-in-NJ-gun-case-4531208.php

 

 

And you people are telling me I'm being paranoid for transporting magazines unloaded...

 

NJ makes up the laws as they go along, period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Cover your butt or risk getting jammed up, and with the right judge, convicted. 

 

My rifles are going to be transported in a guitar case, and my handguns in a lunch box. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Court-upholds-TX-man-s-conviction-in-NJ-gun-case-4531208.php

 

 

And you people are telling me I'm being paranoid for transporting magazines unloaded...

 

NJ makes up the laws as they go along, period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Cover your butt or risk getting jammed up, and with the right judge, convicted. 

 

My rifles are going to be transported in a guitar case, and my handguns in a lunch box. 

 

the story tells the whole story...

 

police roll up to a car with TX plates...

parked behind a bank..

with a guy sleeping in the car...

when asked if he had guns he stated he did not..

was transporting guns illegally (not complying with federal law)

and gets arrested...

 

the situation is a sum of all that... 

the situation is not...

 

person pulled over for turn signal.. 

car searched due to gun cases in back seat..

 

 

I am not saying the cops were right or wrong... but obviously he lied... they obviously saw the guns and were concerned why a lawful citizen would lie.. 

 

 

moral of the story... follow the law..

[ryan_j 0]

No Vlad. The moral of the story is carry your guns in anything BUT a gun case.

 

He did not consent to a search, but having a GUN case is suddenly now probable cause for a warrantless search? That's what the judge said, and what makes this different.

Yes, he broke the law, but there is a possible illegal search here, so the cops may have broken the law too. 

 

It's very possible that if he didn't have a gun case, and a guitar case instead, he'd have been sent on his way. They wouldn't have had probable cause for a search had it not been for the gun case. 

 

We aren't supposed to break the law but we have protections against unwarranted search and seizure. 

[tony357 386]

last year someone the family knew was pulled over, the trooper saw his gun case and asked to search the vehicle..

the driver said no, they made him wait on the side of the road until they obtained a warrant to search his vehicle.. 

it did not end good..

[brocglock23 4]

last year someone the family knew was pulled over, the trooper saw his gun case and asked to search the vehicle..

the driver said no, they made him wait on the side of the road until they obtained a warrant to search his vehicle.. 

it did not end good..

Did he have anything illegal or a loaded gun?? Not agreeing with the search but just curious.....

[Anselmo 87]

You have to look at the case in its totality and not just conclude that a gun case is prima facie cause for a search.  It was a contributing factor. 

 

The guy violated FOPA. 

[Soju 153]

I am not saying the cops were right or wrong... but obviously he lied... they obviously saw the guns and were concerned why a lawful citizen would lie..

To avoid a warrantless search. Oops! It happened anyways.

[Anselmo 87]

last year someone the family knew was pulled over, the trooper saw his gun case and asked to search the vehicle..

the driver said no, they made him wait on the side of the road until they obtained a warrant to search his vehicle.. 

it did not end good..

 

Why didn't it end well?  Were there other things besides the gun case that caused the trooper to be suspicious?

[GRIZ 3,369]

last year someone the family knew was pulled over, the trooper saw his gun case and asked to search the vehicle..

the driver said no, they made him wait on the side of the road until they obtained a warrant to search his vehicle.. 

it did not end good..

I'm sure there was more probable cause than a gun case to get a warrant. The title to this thread is misleading. A gun case itself doesn't constitute PC. Add lying and you may have something.

 

This guy is no kind of poster child. Transporting firearms in unlocked or unsecured cases in an area you can reach in a vehicle will get you arrested in most states.

[Soju 153]

I'm sure there was more probable cause than a gun case to get a warrant. The title to this thread is misleading. A gun case itself doesn't constitute PC. Add lying and you may have something.

 

This guy is no kind of poster child. Transporting firearms in unlocked or unsecured cases in an area you can reach in a vehicle will get you arrested in most states.

Most states? You sure? Not all states are Jersey stupid.

[tony357 386]

Why didn't it end well?  Were there other things besides the gun case that caused the trooper to be suspicious?

no, he had a joint in the glove box he was charged with multiple gun charges, in a school zone to boot and the marijuana cigarette..

I personally did not know the kid another friend of the family knew him he was from Manahawkin he did have his hunting license on him.. he had been hunting in the morning and was on his way to a friends house in the afternoon and forgot to take the gun out.. He did not have a fid and not going or returning from a hunting trip screwed him also.. 

 

But hey i use to leave my shotgun in the truck 24-7 during hunting season when i was teens into 30's i always was hunting sometimes multiple guns in the truck for diffrent hunting. I wish the new cop's would realize our area is a large hunting community..

What was worse he was pulled over just into burlington county on rt 542 so his court case i believe was in camden puts you in a completely diffrent world..  

[voyager9 3,434]

What was worse he was pulled over just into burlington county on rt 542 so his court case i believe was in camden puts you in a completely diffrent world..

 

Not that it changes your story much, but.... Mount holly is the county seat for Burlington county. Camden is the seat for Camden County.

[illy 1]

Yes, he broke the law, but there is a possible illegal search here, so the cops may have broken the law too. 

 

^This

 

 A gun case itself doesn't constitute PC.

 

"The "plain view discovery of firearm cases on the back seat, and defendant's subsequent admission that he was transporting long arms to Texas" gave the officer probable cause to believe Reininger possessed firearms illegally, the judges wrote."

 

You have to look at the case in its totality and not just conclude that a gun case is prima facie cause for a search.  It was a contributing factor. 

 

The guy violated FOPA. 

No.

 

It was the gun case(s) only. No one knew he violated FOPA until after the search,

[djg0770 481]

Moral of the story?

 

Throw gun cases in car - spread blanket on top.  Nobody needs to see nothing and keep your G-D mouth shut if asked.

[Maksim 1,504]

The thing is.... who in the right mind would sleep in a car with guns... in a Bank parking lot.... 

 

unless you own the bank.... you are banking on going to jail.

 

I am sure he was just tired and was too stupid to think at that point... but he could of easily pulled over and slept in his car at a NJTP rest area.

[raz-0 1,259]

Said it before, I'll say it again. I've gotten one really good piece of advice from a cop way back when. You don't want to get caught, only break one law at a time.

[paulnj088 9]

i guess trunks are only good storeing bodies in Jersey Huh  :ph34r:      

[maintenanceguy 510]

The thing is.... who in the right mind would sleep in a car with guns... in a Bank parking lot.... 

 

unless you own the bank.... you are banking on going to jail.

 

I am sure he was just tired and was too stupid to think at that point... but he could of easily pulled over and slept in his car at a NJTP rest area.

Somebody from Texas who doesn't realize that guns are inherently evil.

[XDJohnTact 49]

Wait, can anyone explain this to me? Since when is a NJ State Firearms ID Card a license to carry weapons in a car?

 

Nappen said the irony of the case is that had Reininger lived in New Jersey, his background would have allowed him to qualify for a state firearms ID card.

"If he'd had one, he wouldn't have been guilty of this offense," Nappen said. "He didn't have one because he didn't live here. He was in transit and all the guns were lawfully his. So you have a situation where he is, in effect, turned into a criminal by New Jersey's gun laws"

[maintenanceguy 510]

Yes, FID allows transport of long guns - cased and unloaded.

[XDJohnTact 49]

I thought it was only used to purchase long arms and ammo? I was sure it was posted here that it was not required to transfer firearms to and from the range?  Where is Vlad when you need a difinative answer?

[illy 1]

Yeah, he made some bad decisions, to first of which was stopping in (or even driving through) NJ.

 

That said, the precedent set here is the big issue: Anything that looks like a gun case = PC to search w/out a warrant.  

 

That means that if I drive a car without a trunk to the range, hunting, gunsmith, etc., my 4th amendment rights are effectively suspended.
 

Hell, I bet this court would uphold the same kind of search if I'm coming home from/going to the field wearing camo and hunting boots. I can see it now:

 

The "plain view discovery of hunting apparel, and defendant's subsequent admission that he had a dead turkey in a cooler" gave the officer probable cause to believe Alpo possessed firearms illegally.

 

 

[illy 1]

I thought it was only used to purchase long arms and ammo? I was sure it was posted here that it was not required to transfer firearms to and from the range?  Where is Vlad when you need a difinative answer?

 

An FID also allows you to transport long guns, cased & unloaded, anywhere, at any time without the typical range/gun shop restrictions. 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I'm gonna say he made a bonehead decision picking a bank to sleep. But it's not one that deserves to put a man in prison over.

[XDJohnTact 49]

An FID also allows you to transport long guns, cased & unloaded, anywhere, at any time without the typical range/gun shop restrictions. 

 

Thanks, I did not know that.

[compujas 21]

According to the article on NJ.com, the police saw two guns on the back seat, eventually had the SUV towed to HQ and obtained a warrant to search.  Who knows what the truth really is.

 

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2013/05/conviction_upheld_for_man_moving_to_texas_with_suv_full_of_guns.html

 

According to FOPA though,

 

 

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

 

 

Emphasis added.

 

Assuming the firearms were plainly visible in the vehicle (not in a case), then I don't think we can argue that they didn't have probable cause.  Assuming they were in a case in the vehicle, does that constitute probable cause? Some of you have said no.  I'm not sure since I'm not LE, but if there were a cardboard box that said "heroin" or "meth supplies", would that constitute probable cause?  Or is an outward appearance leading you to believe something illegal is inside it not valid probable cause?  Do you have to actually have sight of the illegal object?

[Underdog 1,593]

The thing is.... who in the right mind would sleep in a car with guns... in a Bank parking lot.... 

 

unless you own the bank.... you are banking on going to jail.

 

I am sure he was just tired and was too stupid to think at that point... but he could of easily pulled over and slept in his car at a NJTP rest area.

 

This!  I can't understand why anyone would have done this.  Even in a gun-friendly state, you are not going to get away with sleeping in a bank parking lot with out-of-state plates and a gun case in the car.  It makes absolutely no sense, and if there wasn't something that shouldn't be going on there, well, then maybe the guy shouldn't have a driver's license, either, as that was not too intelligent.   Maybe it was a strip mall or something and the bank was one store in the parking lot?

 

However, this does beg the question.  What is the limit for the search?  If a cop pulls you over because your headlight just went out and he sees a copy of Guns and Ammo or Combat Handguns on the passenger seat next to you, is that enough?  What if you have a Ruger baseball cap on your back seat?  Or, what if you have an "I Second that Amendment" bumper sticker?  Where is the line drawn?  What if you have an NRA sticker AND a guitar case, or what if there is a lock on the guitar case?  Or, what if you are listening to Guns for Hire Radio in the parking lot of your child's school while you are waiting to pick him up and the volume isn't too loud but the windows are open and someone hears something?

 

The other question to ask is that assuming that all checks and the man is legit, but seemingly stupid, then what is a "proper" sentence for such things....  Life in prison, etc?  If there was NO criminal intent, then how/why would anybody be charged for a felony unless it is criminal negligence? 

[ryan_j 0]

One of the big problems with NJ gun laws is the Graves Act. This provides mandatory minimum sentences for all gun crimes. I believe it is 5 years with 3 years incarceration minimum before parole eligibility. 

 

In some places, illegal possession like this is a misdemeanor. In some places it is a small fine. In NJ we treat it like a capital crime. 

[Soju 153]

I'm still confused about what part of the law says that probable cause means you no longer need a warrant. I thought it meant that without probable cause, they couldn't even get issued a warrant. But I'll just chalk that up to another one of those pesky amendments that get in the way so isn't followed.

[BlueLineFish 615]

There are exemptions to the warrant rule