Grip when racking the slide?

[Barms 98]

Just read great thread about the way to rack the slide (never use slide release). I'm 100% on board with that. I got that in my training class.

 

I didn't however get into the details in how you grip the slide. The other thread said that using just fingers is fine motor skill but using palm is full motor skill

 

I have been using just my fingers because my palm will then not cover the ejection port

 

If you have a failure and proceed to tap and rack aren't you trying to clear a potential bad round ? With palm on the slide aren't you blocking the ejection port?

 

The answer can't be you have two different slide grips for different scenarios.

[Ron 0]

You're thinking too much.

[2Alpha 6]

why wouldn't you use the slide release to chamber a round. It is the fastest method.  The whole fine/gross motor skill is BS anyways.  All manipulations of a handgun are a fine motor skill, including sling shoting the slide

[djg0770 481]

 

This way.

 

 

Oh, and here come 10 internet commandos to tell you why this way sucks and their way is better.

[Bighungry618 450]

^^

Oh man...That way SUUUUX....I'm Internet Special Forces btw.    LOL (sorry, couldn't resist)

[ChrisJM981 924]

No Dan; That is the correct way.

[checko 180]

Oh, and here come 10 internet commandos to tell why this way sucks and their way is better.

That's kind of a negative attitude lol

[mcbethr 42]

why wouldn't you use the slide release to chamber a round. It is the fastest method.  The whole fine/gross motor skill is BS anyways.  All manipulations of a handgun are a fine motor skill, including sling shoting the slide

 

In October of 2004, I was an Infantry Squad Leader serving in Rotation 47 of the Multinational Force and Observer mission in Egypt.  We were basically peacekeepers who sat on the border of Egypt and Israel to make sure that the two sides weren't going to war.  The mission had been going on since the early 1980's.

 

This was a very lazy rotation - we basically lifted weights and tanned a lot and did a patrol every three days.

 

One day I got a call over the radio that Checkpoint 3A near Taba had been hit with a truck bomb and that we would be next.  The first thing I thought was: "Who's F*cking around on the radio?"

 

But this wasn't a drill, a checkpoint had been hit and our checkpoint would be next.  I was in my checkpoint's little command post - basically a trailer with a radio and a computer.  But we had an alarm.  So I hit the alarm and watched as my men all too slowly stumbled out of their trailers in their underwear or left our little shaded area or got up from their tanning cots.  When they saw me and heard my screaming: "Get to the F*cking bunkers!!! Three Alpha has been hit!!!" they moved with a little more purpose.

 

We spent 12 hours in those bunkers waiting to get hit.  And it never happened.   The next morning we were told to go back to our standard readiness posture.  As it turns out, it wasn't Checkpoint 3A that had been hit, it was the Hilton Hotel that was about a kilometer away from Checkpoint 3A.  You can read about the event here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Sinai_bombings

 

I distinctly remember how I was standing in our little command post, laughing about the event with Corporal Martinez, who had been a Marine in the First Gulf War.  We were both complaining about how stupid battalion had been, telling us that Checkpoint 3A had been hit when it had been perfectly fine.

 

I will never forget the next sound : "POP!  WIZZZZZZZZ!!!!"

 

I distinctly remember looking over at Martinez.  Our eyes met.  His eyes were suddenly the size of dinner plates.  I don't know if he said : "Incoming" or I said "Incoming" or he said "RPG" or I said "RPG." Both of us said one of those things and we fell to the floor of the CP.  The door to the CP was open and I could see outside into our little common area.  I distinctly remember watching Private Cleary, my SAW gunner, taking the time to put his cigarette down on our picnic table before he got down on the ground.

 

And ---- nothing happened.  No explosion.

 

Now at this point, I distinctly remember thinking: Either I'm deaf from the explosion, or they missed, or it was a dud.  I also remember a sudden dump of adrenalin.  The only thing I can liken it to was the feeling you get after a car accident, but multiplied a few times.

 

I remember Martinez getting up and running out of the CP over top of me.  This was a man who had been a Marine in real combat -  and he fled out of the CP like a little girl.  Honestly, it was the most sensible thing to do - the CP had two radio antennas sticking out of it.  If you were Haji, where would you attack first so that you could kill all of the men in the checkpoint at your leisure?  You go for the building with the radios.

 

I knew I was going to die within the next few seconds.  I don't know why I did what I did next - maybe it was training, maybe I just wanted to die fighting.

 

We kept our M-60 heavy machine gun inside the CP because it was too heavy to lug around the checkpoint and if we left it in a bunker facing the roadway it would rust.  The M-60 weighs about 23 pounds.  This is the same gun that Rambo used in First Blood.

 

I got up off the floor and picked up the M-60 with one hand.  Imagine pulling a 25 pound weight off of a weight tree with one hand and holding it perpendicular to you body - it's tough to do, but I was so mind-nummingly frightened, I did it without thinking.

 

I popped an ammo can open and pulled out a belt of 7.62 ammunition.  I reached for the feed tray cover release switch, but my hands wouldn't obey.  My hands were shaking so much that I couldn't get the feed tray cover open.  My heart was pounding, I knew I had just seconds left to get out of the CP, and my body was betraying me.  My hands wouldn't perform this action that I had performed literally thousands of times.  But I had to get out of the CP.  NOW!  Or I was going to die.  

 

Popping that release lever to the feed tray cover was a fine motor skill.

 

So I grabbed the ammo belt in one hand, the M-60 in the other and ran out of the CP screaming like Rambo, with the belt of ammunition dragging on the floor.

 

I ran straight into Corporal Martinez who told me : "It was a tire!!!"

 

A car had popped a tire on one of our speedbumps.  "POP!  WIZZZZZZZZ!!!!"

 

I swear it took me a good 10 minutes to calm down after that.  My heart was pounding.  I mean POUNDING and my hands were still shaking.  Later that day, Martinez, who had run out of the CP like a little girl without grabbing his weapon said to me: "At least you had the foresight to grab the sixty, Sergeant."  That meant a lot to me.  He had been in real combat.  I had just gotten a taste. 

 

But I will tell you this: fine motor skills break down when you are scared.  End of discussion.

[Barms 98]

Checker50. Awesome pic. I will practice that

 

Macbeth. Thank you for your story

[djg0770 481]

 My name is Ryan McBeth.  My phone number is 520 222 7344.  You can call me and tell me I'm coward.  I'll even meet you at a bar somewhere if you want and you can call me a coward to my face.  

 

But I will tell you this: fine motor skills break down when you are scared.  End of discussion.

 

Calling you now.  To tell you thank you.

 

That is all.

[djg0770 481]

Checker50. Awesome pic. I will practice that

 

I tell you - I get NO RESPECT.

[olderguy 0]

Ryan McBeth, thank you for your service.

 

I would have been proud to have you serve with me, but you were too young or not yet born.

[ChrisJM981 924]

Ryan,

 

Thank you for your service. Should we ever cross paths first round's on me.

 

..and yeah adrenaline sends everything to hell.

[jrfly3006 42]

http://youtu.be/-jm4-R4hYy8

 

Ryan ... A big hooaahh! from a tanker who never saw combat and big thanks for your service..

 

As for the slide release / overhand release debate here's my .02 cents...I'm with Travis Haley above...The overhand method is the most efficient and allows a consistent method that covers just about all semi-auto pistols... But I train regularly with my guns... I know my guns and I work them the same every time.. on my Glocks and FNX45 I know I can hit that slide release every time...I do it in drills ad nauseam..even until my thumb becomes raw...I believe that constant training is the key as that is what you'll remember when the time comes...only you know your body and your guns and their capabilities.

I understand that wont work for every shooter so pick one that you can hit every time...train until your blue in the face and burn it into memory. If your comfortable with overhand then run with it.. You have to be comfortable with whatever you choose.

[Barms 98]

Omg. I meant DJG for the picture!!! Not checker. Sorry man

[Malsua 1,422]

 

This way.

 

 

Oh, and here come 10 internet commandos to tell you why this way sucks and their way is better.

 

Or, if you're left handed like me.

 

[2Alpha 6]

 

You can call me a coward if you want.  My name is Ryan McBeth.  My phone number is 520 222 7344.  You can call me and tell me I'm coward.  I'll even meet you at a bar somewhere if you want and you can call me a coward to my face.  

 

But I will tell you this: fine motor skills break down when you are scared.  End of discussion.

Not quite sure why you quoted me in your response and this "call you a coward" thing....very odd

[mcbethr 42]

Not quite sure why you quoted me in your response and this "call you a coward" thing....very odd

 

Didn't intend to offend.  That actually wasn't directed at you.  It was more of my way of putting my name out there if anyone wanted to challenge me on the story or criticize me for being weak.  Some guys hide behind avatars.  I don't.

 

I will freely admit that I was frightened out of my mind.  I don't feel embarrassed about it and I freely admit how scared I was.  It's very hard to explain to anybody who hasn't been in a similar situation.

 

I was quoting you because I just had to call out the "The whole fine/gross motor skill is BS anyways." because, it's not, brother.  It's really, really not.  

 

This board is different because we are like a family here.  We go to each other's ranges and buy stuff from each other and shoot each other's ammo.  Families fight, but we always make up in the end.  I just had to point out that the fine/gross motor school is very far from BS because I learned that from my own experience.  Nobody would tell a story like that if it weren't true because it doesn't cast me in the most positive light.  But If this story makes someone train differently and ultimately saves a life a few years from now, well, then it's worth it.

[checko 180]

I tell you - I get NO RESPECT.

Lol

[2Alpha 6]

 

 

I was quoting you because I just had to call out the "The whole fine/gross motor skill is BS anyways." because, it's not, brother.  It's really, really not.  

 

This board is different because we are like a family here.  We go to each other's ranges and buy stuff from each other and shoot each other's ammo.  Families fight, but we always make up in the end.  I just had to point out that the fine/gross motor school is very far from BS because I learned that from my own experience.  Nobody would tell a story like that if it weren't true because it doesn't cast me in the most positive light.  But If this story makes someone train differently and ultimately saves a life a few years from now, well, then it's worth it.

 

The sling shot is a fine motor skill, just like hitting the slide release. Anything done with fingers is a fine motor skill.    Walking, balance lifting are gross motor skills.  People are incorrectly calling slingshot a gross motor skill to bolster their arguement, that is what is BS. 

 

I never said you don't lose fine motor skills under stress.

[checko 180]

Didn't intend to offend.  That actually wasn't directed at you.  It was more of my way of putting my name out there if anyone wanted to challenge me on the story or criticize me for being weak.  Some guys hide behind avatars.  I don't.

 

I will freely admit that I was frightened out of my mind.  I don't feel embarrassed about it and I freely admit how scared I was.  It's very hard to explain to anybody who hasn't been in a similar situation.

 

I was quoting you because I just had to call out the "The whole fine/gross motor skill is BS anyways." because, it's not, brother.  It's really, really not.  

 

This board is different because we are like a family here.  We go to each other's ranges and buy stuff from each other and shoot each other's ammo.  Families fight, but we always make up in the end.  I just had to point out that the fine/gross motor school is very far from BS because I learned that from my own experience.  Nobody would tell a story like that if it weren't true because it doesn't cast me in the most positive light.  But If this story makes someone train differently and ultimately saves a life a few years from now, well, then it's worth it.

If there was someone who intended to criticize a soldier in a potential combat situation, they don't have a very good grasp on reality.

[raz-0 1,259]

http://youtu.be/-jm4-R4hYy8

 

Ryan ... A big hooaahh! from a tanker who never saw combat and big thanks for your service..

 

As for the slide release / overhand release debate here's my .02 cents...I'm with Travis Haley above...The overhand method is the most efficient and allows a consistent method that covers just about all semi-auto pistols... But I train regularly with my guns... I know my guns and I work them the same every time.. on my Glocks and FNX45 I know I can hit that slide release every time...I do it in drills ad nauseam..even until my thumb becomes raw...I believe that constant training is the key as that is what you'll remember when the time comes...only you know your body and your guns and their capabilities.

I understand that wont work for every shooter so pick one that you can hit every time...train until your blue in the face and burn it into memory. If your comfortable with overhand then run with it.. You have to be comfortable with whatever you choose.

 

 

OK, I'm going to put out some food for thought. I'm not going to claim it is absolutely right, or absolutely wrong. In fact, my position is really primarily targeted at the one size fits all mentality, and that even if you need to head down that road for institutional/practical reasons of training, as an individual you might want to at least think reconsider your position/practices/methods based on some facts rather than misconceptions, as well as some hedges on the abilities of the average human being that I believe differ from the common wisdom of trainers. I welcome debate, but please be cogent rather than just saying you are wrong.

 

1) "you lose fine motor skills under stress, so uses finger grasping method X because it is a gross motor skill" - this premise is just wrong. damn near everything you do with your hands that doesn't involve a paddle like motion originating form flexing the wrist is a fine motor skill period. An example of something that IS a gross motor skill vs. fine motor skill in the operation of small arms comes form the ar-15 world. IF you have an oversized cahrging handle that allows you to operate the action with the palm of your hand, that IS a gross motor skill vs. the three finger pinch.  

 

2) "the power stroke is teh awesomez!!!!" - case in point, the video above. He demonstrates the undeniable speed of the power stroke.  The power stroke SEEMS way faster than the slide release, but in reality he is rushing the whole process faster while also only apparently gaining a small time advantage. It's not really faster. He in fact hedges his instruction that he is faster with the slide release on the guns he is familiar with. He also states you deliver maximum power by grasping with your four fingers wrapped over the top. This, to me, appears to be total BS. I will allow that their may be some common problem amongst your average person that this covers up and is which is simpler than training folks out of said problem, but I don't know what that is if it exists. What I CAN tell you is that the majority of your grip strength comes from your thumb and your first three fingers. Go look at something like the captains of crush grip strength training tools. Meet them in person. Measure the resistance of the various tools. The most stout resistance is NOT on the ones meant for the pinky and ring finger. IF you are lucky enough to be able to clear the ejection port with your pinky and still get your thumb and forefinger on the slide, the power stroke works great for grip. if not it doesn't. I can tell you as an RO, when a competitor seriously jams up their gun, you don't fix it with a power stroke grip you fix it with physics tricks and a slingshot style grip because this is how you can impart the most energy to it without using tools. I would argue strongly that although the power stroke grip might prevent bad form in how the arms are involved (i.e. preventing the use of weaker muscle groups), for a significant number of people, it either prevents you form using the strongest portion of your grip, or it forces you to have your pinky and/or ring finger interfere with the ejection port while clearing jams. The former reduces your chance of clearing jams, while the latter does that as well as increasing your risk of off hand injury if you induce cartridge ignition outside of the chamber by causing a primer impact with the ejector of the gun. While I agree with the premise of the video that one should have a technique that is more platform agnostic DEEPLY ingrained in your practice, I suggest that the slingshot method or slingshot like method that involves the thumb, forefinger,a nd middle finger as the primary source of grasping strength, at least on a gun that has decent rear slide serrations, is superior. Then you have the issue of the fine/gross motor skills. As I stated above, the power stroke is NOT a gross motor skill if you actually bring science into it. As a fine motor skill, I can tell you that performing fine motor skill actions is SIGNIFICANTLY easier with parts of the body that have more brain dedicated to operating those parts. The slingshot grip, or variations thereon, have the thumb, forefinger and middle finger as the primary operators and manipulators, and that is the order of decreasing amount of brain real estate dedicated to controlling the motor functions of those digits. If you want to clear the ejection port, the power stroke grasp lets the pinky finger lead the charge, which has the LEAST amount of brain power dedicated to controlling it.  This strikes me as bad. 

 

3) with the increasing prevalence of smaller carry guns, the issue of grasping real-estate being very small puts the powerstroke grasp into the realm of sub optimal for a dramatically larger portion of the population than with a full size sidearm. 

 

 

As a demonstration of my statements about motor skills and strength, here are a couple of try it yourself experiments.

 

- It's not the best home experiment example of this, but should be enough to notice a difference for most people.  In decreasing order of how much brain you have dedicated to fine motor control, the order for the following is in most control -> least control.  Tongue > forefinger > thumb > middle finger > ring finer > pinky. Open your mouth so you can easily touch the tips of both canines. Alternate between touching your left and right with the tip of your tongue speeding up to go as fast as you can until you start making mistakes and missing. Try the same thing with your forefinger, thumb, middle finger, etc. notice which ones reuslt in errors sooner and at lower speeds. Note which bits are faster with less mistakes. 

 

-for strength and control, break out your gallon jug of milk or water. Put two quarters on a table a little over shoulder width apart. place the jug with one corner touching the quarter. Now, using your forefinger, middle finger and thumb, pick the jug up and move it from that quarter to a similar corner touching set up with the other quarter without disturbing either quarter (note, start position is hands off the jug). Repeat increasing speed until you get errors or you have done it half a dozen times. Now repeat hooking your pinky, ring finger and middle finger through the jug handle. Note which you achieve better success with (as in higher speed with less errors). 

[bhunted 887]

Doesn't the video really answer all of it? If you have trained with the slide release on all our guns all your life and they are the only guns you will ever pick up, shouldn't this be fine? For over 30+ years, it's always been my way and feels 2nd nature to me. I do it without thinking.

 

On the other hand I can't think of any scenario that would require you to find the release on a foreign gun, (someone else's), in an intense situation where you'd be required to hunt for the release. Even in the military, law enforcement, etc., in those scenarios, most would be carrying the same sidearm.

 

Now, in the other direction, if you trained all your life the other way, you'll be globally covered on most weapons.

 

Either or, they are both ok in my humble opinion.

Sort of 'to each their own'....

 

Now I think I read this whole thread. If I missed something that makes it functionally wrong that would cause the gun to get excessively more wear and tear or break something, tell me. Because my Govt 45 has seen many rounds being chambered with the slide release over 30+ years and it still kicks arse.

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[High Exposure 5,670]

I use my thumb to release the slide stop when letting the slide go home on a reload. I use an overhead grip when reducing a malfunction.

 

How is using your thumb to manipulate a slide release any different then disengaging a safety on a 1911, cocking a hammer on a revolver, or manipulating a selector on an AR?

 

Ask yourself this:

 

Is properly pressing a trigger (isolating the trigger finger from the rest of the hand and controlling it straight to the rear) a fine or gross motor skill?

 

Is trigger reset a fine or gross motor skill?

 

Is hitting a mag release a fine or a gross motor skill?

 

Is aligning and inserting a square peg into a square hole (inserting a mag on a semi auto) or many round pegs into many round holes (moon clips/speed loader/individual shells in a revolver) a fine or gross motor skill?

 

Is disengaging a holsters retention with your thumb (sush as on a Safariland ALS or SLS holster) during the draw stroke a fine or gross motor skill?

 

Ask a fighter pilot or helicopter pilot if they need to use fine motor skills under stress to keep their aircraft from turning into lawn darts.

 

All of these operations are conducted regularly in combat and while under stress. How can this be? All of these operations are fine motor skills.

 

There is trained/skilled movement (what most refer to incorrectly as "muscle" memory. It is actually procedural memory) and there is untrained/unskilled movements.

 

When I was shot at, I was unable to return fire due to a cluttered backstop in a residential neighborhood. I was scared but I did however accomplish the following fine motor skills:

~ Turning a flashlight on and off

~ Transmit on a portable radio

~ Load and charge an AR

~ Manipulate the safety on an AR

 

You will do what you have been properly trained to do or what you have properly trained yourself to do barring significant injury or incapacitating fear. Note: Fear is not cowardice.

 

Under stress, you will not "rise to the occasion". You will default to the lowest level that you have been trained to.

[benboga37 2]

^^

Oh man...That way SUUUUX....I'm Internet Special Forces btw.    LOL (sorry, couldn't resist)[/quote

This really made my day, thanks man!

[Shane45 807]

"I use my thumb to release the slide stop when letting the slide go home on a reload. I use an overhead grip when reducing a malfunction."

 

EXACTLY!

 

I prefer the weak hand slide stop manipulation method because I believe it to be faster. But lets talk for a second why it is faster. Economy of motion is one benefit.But the other is that it allows me to work the pistol in front of my face so I can keep my eyes on the danger space. The pistol is almost in full presentation at the point the reload is completing. If you look at this video (I made for a different purpose) you can see when I transition to the left most target that the pistol is already just about in alignment when the slide drops.

 

One more point, just because a certain trainer advocates a general methodology DOES NOT MEAN that he does not advocate a different method for more advanced users. As I said in the other thread, have as many tools in your bag as possible.

 

[WVisHome 0]

http://youtu.be/-jm4-R4hYy8

 

 

^ This is how I do it. I feel like I have much more control of the gun and muzzle.