Private Sale Warning

[SJG 253]

I thought I would post this warning so that you do not fall into this "trap" that one of my clients did. While the forum often contains a discussion of State law, federal restrictions are often only mentioned in passing.  With the pending  legal changes in State law, there has been an increase in private sales to non FFL's which may not be permissible in the future. Under present federal law, if you are making an occasional sale to thin your collection, you are normally ok. However if profit is your primary motive, and you are engaging in private sales as a side business-you better have an FFL. When you start selling new, unfired weapons that you recently acquired with any regularity, you are raising a red flag. You also raise a red flag, if there is a short turn around time between your purchase and your resale. The other problem is that resale of new unfired weapons may also raise the red flag of a straw purchase. Also, if you are reloading, other than for your own use, as a business, you will be considered a manufacturer and you need an FFL. Be smart. Don't ruin your life.

[johnp 45]

How exactly would the gubmint know if one were selling too many guns F2F?

[1LtCAP 4,264]

the hills have eyes.

[brocglock23 4]

Sounds tin foilish but there were/are quite a few new items for sale on here and I'd suspect big brother is watching.

 

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[BlueLineFish 615]

There has always been a lot of classifieds here

[Shawnmoore81 623]

It's up to the owner of the gun if he wants to sell it. As long as they don't sell it illegally then who cares

[raz-0 1,259]

The op is correct. If you are flipping guns regularly, you can wind up on the wrong end of the ATF if they notice.

 

 

[brocglock23 4]

There has always been a lot of classifieds here

people are constantly selling guns on here but mostly used. Recently there seems to be an influx of"Oh I bought this gun but never fired it because...... I just picked this up but ordered 2 so now I don't need 2 because I found the other cheaper. ...

 

It is what it is but I think the op has a valid point.

 

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[Underdog 1,593]

Why doesn't the ATF investigate the IRS, instead?

[ReadDude 0]

Figure anything posted on the Internet has been archived, analyzed and collated for later analysis. That is not paranoia, that is the fact.

 

I could probably with just a little homework build a database from the publicly available data on Google, this forum and gunbroker and gunsamerica and in a day or two have a list of the top sellers of firearms that are not listed as FFLs in well known public databases. Then I just run those queries for about 3 mos. Voila, I have a set of persons of interest to investigate.

 

If I can do that, an investigator whose job is to enforce a law, could get some resources to do the same searches. If it is digital, consider it is being tracked.

 

Off-line is a whole different situation.

[Shane45 807]

You can list all you want, proving intent is a much more difficult matter. In consideration of the metric ton of selling that is going on and about to go on as everyone tries to diveste themselves of their panic buys, I think making a case would be pretty difficult unless the seller is shy a few iq points.

[Anselmo 87]

It's up to the owner of the gun if he wants to sell it. As long as they don't sell it illegally then who cares

 

The ATF cares.  They don't want people circumventing the FFL system.

[jackandjill 683]

With all that panic buying, there is going too much supply of firearms. 

Combine that with shortage / expense of ammo, there is going to be good chunk of unfired firearms on the market. And there is no shortage
of laws that someone could use to stick to a normal guy / gal to make name for themselves or even just to make a statement.

 

The situation is ripe for entrapment and making example of a regular Joe.

 

I put something up for sale near the cost and got an offer from out of state. I got clarification on the law from these forums and refused the offer. The guy even
mentioned that he sold something similar for 3 times over recently.  Could it be a case of someone fishing ? Possible.

[ReadDude 0]

If you don't think this is a real risk, read this article on TTAG today about a retiree fighting to remove a Felony conviction that resulted from information tracked against him from his attendance at gun shows in Florida.  The ATF have methods, means, money and motive to make you a look like a felon and then turn that into reality in the court system.

 

He was as this article points within the limits of the law, but close enough that they put the nail to him.

 

They don't need motive to ruin your day, your gun collection, you bank account and possibly your life.

 

They did significant research on this guy including collecting his credit card and hotel receipts as well as tracking his activities at gun shows. Unless your activities are 100% off-line and via cash and face to face, you can be tracked if desired.

 

The Continuing Saga of Don Williams, ATF Agent

 

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/06/foghorn/the-continuing-saga-of-don-williams-douchebag-atf-agent/

[Shane45 807]

Your evidence is a case where he was found not guilty? If ANY LE, state or Fed decides he is going enact abuse of poweragainst someone, its an uphill battle no matter what. In the case in the link is a wealthy guy booking hotels and traviling to gun shows buying, selling and trading and was still found not guilty. At what point do you suppose there is an actual concern?!?!?!

[ReadDude 0]

The big picture here is:

 

1.) Someone was doing some data mining to find this guy. sounds like they used gun show records and he showed up as someone to go after. Who knows that the threshold was.

2.) they did get a felony conviction, the fact that it was for a separate charge, it was their reward after doing all the work on the "big one". He lost his 2nd Amendment rights regardless (and the conviction was for essentially a crime he was entrapped in.)

3.) imagine what it cost him to get this far in the process of dealing with ATF.

 

All I am saying is that don't be naive about the efforts a federal bureaucracy may go to get their quota of scalps.

 

There are lots of discussions here on the merits of just how securely to store and secure firearms and ammo and mags to fend of trouble if you are stopped. I think the same range of discussion should be considered here. What level of sales will bring you to someone undesirable's attention? That is the question, the answer may be lower than you think.

[TheLugNutZ 21]

I think its a fair warning. Both for firearms and ammo. 

[Clintoon Eastwood 2]

I noticed that some people do "boast" about acquiring firearms then sell it a couple weeks later. For profit. 

[dtown223 12]

If indecision & sellers remorse end up making me a felon, I'm screwed.

I've gotta be a huge offender in the selling something, regretting it & replacing it category.

Sigh

[raz-0 1,259]

You can list all you want, proving intent is a much more difficult matter. In consideration of the metric ton of selling that is going on and about to go on as everyone tries to diveste themselves of their panic buys, I think making a case would be pretty difficult unless the seller is shy a few iq points.

 

I think you may be mistaken. Based on previous accounts of people getting snagged for this at gun shows, and the whole mess with gunsmiths = manufacturers if they work on more than X guns in a year, BATFE seems to approach this stuff with the attitude that the crime is to fail to comply with regulatory limits, and their definition of said limit is a magic number they have in their heads but won't share with you.

 

The gunsmith thing eventually resulted in enough POed business people with lawyers they divulged the magic number, but for stuff like this, I suspect it is whatever they say it is until you win in court. 

 

If you are going to flip something, flipping it for profit will look worse than flipping it to get your money back. Businesses run to make a profit, if you aren't profiting, the business potion of the accusation may be more defensible. Things you have taken out and fondled are probably better described as like new in box or mint than new in box. And very low round count might be better than saying never fired.

 

Use some common sense.  

[Shane45 807]

Raz, I agree on the manufacturing thing as I know several smiths that got caught up in that. As for making ammo for sale, I think that law is pretty clear. On the buying and selling thing, I think to catch attention the way those that have caught cases against them, I suspect the numbers are very high. My point was even with high numbers he was still found not guilty. The charge that stuck, was an out of state sale. So it would imply that for the quantity of buying and selling he did, he should have really known the laws inside and out. If he had, he would likely have won on both counts. And according to the article, may win his appeal. In my view what this really speaks to is the out of date FFL system. There is no class of FFL for those individuals that have the financial means to buy and sell to attain the collection they are pursuing. You cant get an FFL to collect, it must be to make a profit. So this leaves a high volume collector in a limbo of sorts. But according to the article, the AFT has changed its guidlines to give more consideration to the non FFL volume collector. My point was a guy who ran a half billion dollar company that traveled all over to gun shows to buy and sell is the high water mark garering negative attention, we are likely safe. My comments should not be mistaken for blind faith in the system as I often operate under the pretence that just because im paranoid, dont mean people arent out to get me! At the same time if applying common sense as Raz stated, I dont think many will have anything to worry about.

[RecessedFilter 222]

I think you just need to use common sense.

 

But as other people stated, sometimes you buy a gun and sell it shortly after. It could be one of numerous reasons, but as long as it is not an illegal reason, there are no issues.

[Maksim 1,504]

C&R in NJ is considered being a dealer.

 

I would assume a few people found the "gun show" in Jackson.   I don't think there is anything that came from the forum, as well, I would know about it if someone requested records from me. =)

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Raz-0 is right!  Furthermore, is it really worth being put through the meat grinder court system to prove that you didn't have evil INTENT?  This confusion is being caused by the letter of the law vs. the INTENT issue!  At what point do you make enough flippin' guns to be considered a dealer?  Do you want to find-out the hard way?  Collecting is one thing, bragging on forums about makin' money selling guns is another.  When the music stops and it's time to find a seat, don't be the only one left standin' with yer putz in yer hand sayin' "hello" to the Feds!

 

To the OP:  Thanks be to God for bringing this up, as I'm growing tired of typing about how to transport locked guns in a SUV........

 

Dave 

[ReadDude 0]

C&R in NJ is considered being a dealer.

 

I would assume a few people found the "gun show" in Jackson.   I don't think there is anything that came from the forum, as well, I would know about it if someone requested records from me. =)

 

So I have never really understood, is there an actual value to being a C&R FFL in NJ? It requires a going through the process of obtaining a full FFL license right?

[Maksim 1,504]

Atf has no issues giving you c&r, however the state police, as per their memo considers you a dealer and as such you are required to comply as an ffl in nj.

 

People got in trouble over it before. If you have a c&r and not a dealer in nj, I would be worried.

 

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[vladtepes 1,060]

I think that people have far too little concern over this....

 

the law is clear with exception of the magic number....

 

if you buy and sell guns... engage in the act of selling guns and making profit... I would say there is a small chance you may get visited at some point.... the reality is it is not legal for a non FFL to buy 5 lowers... put them in the safe till a scare.. and then sell all 5 at a profit... the reality is in that instance you are not just selling some personal stuff.. you are investing in guns for reselling to make a profit... and the reality is we both know you are breaking the law by acting as an unlicensed FFL.. 

 

how are they going to know?

 

"FS 4 Spikes lowers $250 each"

 

chances are you didn't accidentally buy 4 too many and just realized it out of nowhere..

[Maksim 1,504]

Btw.... This does happen and I know personally of 2 forum members who got visits in the past year.

[ReadDude 0]

Atf has no issues giving you c&r, however the state police, as per their memo considers you a dealer and as such you are required to comply as an ffl in nj.

 

People got in trouble over it before. If you have a c&r and not a dealer in nj, I would be worried.

 

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Thanks, so you are confirming my suspicion. No value in a C&R license, you might as well go all the way and be a full FFL if you want to buy/sell.