NYC "finest" in action again...

[Urban Grunt 44]

So what would happen if a civilian took on the suspect , fired three shots , missed the suspect and injured bystanders .

Would they be free to go home without charge or arrest ?

[woodentoe 14]

Ok, Ok, Here is my 3 point plan for NYPD - toung in cheek but much truth to it:

• Switch the NYPD platform from glock ( i guess) to 1911. Cocked and locked at least that thumb safty will give them a split micr-second to either decide it might not require a shoot, or at least take better aim. (not to mention the better trigger).
• Have all NYPD study this link and be regirously tested on it every 6 months: (Note all the Tabs not just the intro!): http://www.bullseyepistol.com/zeninfo.htm
• As stipulated above require all NYPD to shoot the Monthly-Steel Match.

:-).

 

This is a side issue. However, the nypd "platform" is not glock.

 

Both the s&w 5946 and the sig have positive safeties. They are both Dao variants. Next time you are in the city ", take a tally of the duty guns. Just as many smiths and sigs as glocks.

 

12# pull is nuts. A recipe for tragedy in a dense area.

 

I'd favor de-escalation as there are valid concerns with both taser overuse and anomalous lethality.

 

Looks like a big foul up. Sucks.

[jrfly3006 42]

Dragnet - 'Just the facts, ma'am.......'

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs.html

 

Roofers - Fatality rate: 32.4 per 100,000 workers; 57 total

Average annual salary: $34,220

 

Police - Fatality rate: 18 per 100,000 workers; 133 total

Average annual salary: $56,250

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't it just really sad.......... 

Yeah sad.. When's the last time two roofers were executed with bullets to the back of their heads.. RIP DET ANDREWS AND DET NEMORIN NYPD who were murdered in such a manner

[Shawnmoore81 623]

When was the last time a generation of police officers were poisoned by companies and a government that knew asbestos kills?

[ZED 54 1]

Lock in 5, 4, 3, 2,,,

[RUTGERS95 890]

it's not sad, it's pathetic how people become too emotional to discuss things like adults.  When presented with clear facts, straw man comes out

 

locking this thread would be a mistake, enough with the nanny controls and let people talk.  If people get out of line then you send them a warning like other sites.

[RUTGERS95 890]

When was the last time a generation of police officers were poisoned by companies and a government that knew asbestos kills?

saddest example of this was Ford in NY.  That was a truly awful situation and they only paid 10mm tying up the courts so people die off to lessen the payout.  More people died there than officers in 20 years on the force.  There is death everywhere people forget

[RUTGERS95 890]

What I think is that they should train like the Military to become more proficient. Wait you guys do want that. Ok we will give them Military like simulators to train in these situations.

 

Wait that won't work either, you guys don't want that.

 

So Barney Fife it is.

blsheep, that is not what he is saying here.  More training is never a bad thing and funding ought to be in place for that.  I think we can agree with that but what people object to are the swat/military like tactics for routine things. 

 

Also, more people should get involved in School Budget meetings cause when cops, administration, fire etc don't have funds, it's because the schools get 80% of most budgets!  Now that is ridiculous 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Wait............ First that is very sad and just as sad as a 50 year old roofer that worked out at my father in laws.......was on another job, slipped fell broke his next...dead... just as tragic...

 

My opinion of sad is what this forum is becoming..........

 

That being said, STATISTICALLY, those ARE the numbers...you may not like them...but that is what they are....... again...JUST FACTS....

 

Just a quick web search for ROOFER KILLED

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=roofers+killed+over+weekend&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=roofer+killed&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial

 

 

 

AND for anyone to make ANY distinction of one person being killed, being more tragic than another, is stupid..... death...is death.... and is final...

 

 

My mother was killed by most likely being burned to death in tower one...we still dont know how because we dont have her body... My cousin was killed the same way... My friend and Asst Chief was crushed to death at the command post..

and many more....

 

Are their deaths any more tragic than a man/women leaving for work and being killed 'on the job'...whatever that job may be.......and leaving a family alone....??

 

Sorry but if your a policeman/women...you know the risks...if your a fireman you know the risks...if yo work 90 stories in the air you know the risks.....if you do 75 on a highway you know the risks.... get my point...??

 

Just because your a LEO...(and I know the risks and would never do that job) doesn't make your death any better or celebratory than John Doe roofer or sanitation worker...etc......

 

Exactly!!

[RUTGERS95 890]

Wait............  First that is very sad and just as sad as a 50 year old roofer that worked out at my father in laws.......was on another job, slipped fell broke his next...dead...  just as tragic...

 

My opinion of sad is what this forum is becoming..........

 

That being said, STATISTICALLY, those ARE the numbers...you may not like them...but that is what they are.......  again...JUST FACTS....

 

Just a quick web search for ROOFER KILLED  

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=roofers+killed+over+weekend&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=roofer+killed&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial

 

 

 

AND for anyone to make ANY distinction of one person being killed, being more tragic than another, is stupid.....  death...is death....  and is final...

 

 

My mother was killed by most likely being burned to death in tower one...we still dont know how because we dont have her body...  My cousin was killed the same way...  My friend and Asst Chief was crushed to death at the command post..

and many more....

 

Are their deaths any more tragic than a man/women leaving for work and being killed 'on the job'...whatever that job may be.......and leaving a family alone....??

 

Sorry but if your a policeman/women...you know the risks...if your a fireman you know the risks...if yo work 90 stories in the air you know the risks.....if you do 75 on a highway you know the risks.... get my point...??

 

Just because your a LEO...(and I know the risks and would never do that job) doesn't make your death any better or celebratory than John Doe roofer or sanitation worker...etc......

couldn't agree more and well said

 

I posted the numbers from the bureau of labor and stats, not getting any more concrete than that.......

 

sorry about your mother, old Cantor guy and been to plenty of those type funerals

[blksheep 466]

blsheep, that is not what he is saying here. More training is never a bad thing and funding ought to be in place for that. I think we can agree with that but what people object to are the swat/military like tactics for routine things.

 

Also, more people should get involved in School Budget meetings cause when cops, administration, fire etc don't have funds, it's because the schools get 80% of most budgets! Now that is ridiculous

Now that is ridiculous. They build new schools that look like Cathedrals.

[jrfly3006 42]

Wait............  First that is very sad and just as sad as a 50 year old roofer that worked out at my father in laws.......was on another job, slipped fell broke his next...dead...  just as tragic...

 

My opinion of sad is what this forum is becoming..........

 

That being said, STATISTICALLY, those ARE the numbers...you may not like them...but that is what they are.......  again...JUST FACTS....

 

Just a quick web search for ROOFER KILLED  

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=roofers+killed+over+weekend&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=roofer+killed&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial

 

 

 

AND for anyone to make ANY distinction of one person being killed, being more tragic than another, is stupid.....  death...is death....  and is final...

 

 

My mother was killed by most likely being burned to death in tower one...we still dont know how because we dont have her body...  My cousin was killed the same way...  My friend and Asst Chief was crushed to death at the command post..

and many more....

 

Are their deaths any more tragic than a man/women leaving for work and being killed 'on the job'...whatever that job may be.......and leaving a family alone....??

 

Sorry but if your a policeman/women...you know the risks...if your a fireman you know the risks...if yo work 90 stories in the air you know the risks.....if you do 75 on a highway you know the risks.... get my point...??

 

Just because your a LEO...(and I know the risks and would never do that job) doesn't make your death any better or celebratory than John Doe roofer or sanitation worker...etc......

Point taken... Just curious as to why you posted salary data along with the fatality statistics? What bearing does that have on current conversation?

[RUTGERS95 890]

Now that is ridiculous. They build new schools that look like Cathedrals.

you aint' kidding.....If I told you some of the proposals I've seen you'd $hit yourself....lol

[carguy3j 0]

it's not sad, it's pathetic how people become too emotional to discuss things like adults.  When presented with clear facts, straw man comes out

 

locking this thread would be a mistake, enough with the nanny controls and let people talk.  If people get out of line then you send them a warning like other sites.

Exactly. I've never seen, on any other site I've ever been on, the level of censorship, thread locking, and post/thread deletion I've seen here. It's crazy. At least half the threads I've been following, even ones I didn't post in, have disappeared or been locked. We're adults. I think we can handle a little heated conversation without our brains exploding.

Yes, if it rises to threats, illegal activity, or direct over-the-top personal attacks (and no, "you're a jerk" or "you probably suck at your job", while they may be rude or immature, are not really personal attacks. They are an opinion.) , then that's a different story.

blsheep, that is not what he is saying here.  More training is never a bad thing and funding ought to be in place for that.  I think we can agree with that but what people object to are the swat/military like tactics for routine things. 

 

Also, more people should get involved in School Budget meetings cause when cops, administration, fire etc don't have funds, it's because the schools get 80% of most budgets!  Now that is ridiculous 

Exactly^^^^^ I agree with all of this.

More training is good, as long as it is the right kind of training.

I remember a saying a music teacher liked to use when I was back in grade school. " Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." So, simply doing any old training doesn't really mean much. Its how and in what area you train.

 

I also agree, school budgets are out of control. The kids are still getting short changed, and programs cut. I would even me willing to agree that SOME teachers (mainly those early in their careers), are underpaid; some even severely so. The problem is where the money IS going. Just like any other government bureaucracy, there is waste throughout the system, and bloated salaries/benefits at the top. http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/12/0906/1551/  This is ridiculous. According to this article, the Parsippany, NJ school superintendent makes $177K!!!!

 

On the other side of that coin, and getting back to the prior references in the thread, to salary data:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/nj_police_salaries_rank_highes.html

Gee, I wonder why they aren't offered more training at work? I don't think it is because of the cost of ammo......

There are many, many doctors that actually make far less then this. I, for one, would rather have more doctors then more police.

But hey, what the heck; for $120K a year, sign me up. I'll gladly accept whatever risk may come with it. (OK, no thanks on Newark, Camden, Trenton,etc.. But, the average NJ town? Hell yeah.)  I'll even happily train on my own dime, at that salary level. Oh, and I promise I will NEVER shoot someones dog, unless it is actually, currently chewing on me.

[leahcim 680]

Yeah. You two have totally destroyed every objective concept that I could ever conjur about THIS PARTICULAR issue.

Bridges. Roofers.

Nice comebacks.

Hard to argue with those two unrelated issues, so... I won't.

Unbelievable.

Conjure indeed!

If you are just going to resort to an ad hominem argument because either you cannot refute what has been said, or you are incapable of the abstraction required to understand metaphorical reference and analogy.  Well then there is no discussion.

[gunguy1960 2]

Roofer nails three innocents with nail gun, boss to do internal investigation, roofer on paid administrative leave, tax payers face huge suit, news stories youll never see.

[leahcim 680]

In the military you also don't get the opportunity to get training whenever you feel like it. You get it when they give it to you.

So lets trash the military now too, ok???

C'mon, who's first? Lets trash cops and the military.

Go ahead. who's first? Roofers???

No one is trashing police or military--well maybe someone is.  I think the adults are trying to have a discussion about this response/incident in NYC and if maybe weapon policy and training would have led to a better outcome. 

In my experience the military training and drilling is pretty extensive and constant. That is just my observation based on seeing U.S troops during normal working activities.

[njpilot 671]

Wait............  First that is very sad and just as sad as a 50 year old roofer that worked out at my father in laws.......was on another job, slipped fell broke his next...dead...  just as tragic...

 

My opinion of sad is what this forum is becoming..........

 

That being said, STATISTICALLY, those ARE the numbers...you may not like them...but that is what they are.......  again...JUST FACTS....

 

Just a quick web search for ROOFER KILLED  

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=roofers+killed+over+weekend&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=roofer+killed&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial

 

 

 

AND for anyone to make ANY distinction of one person being killed, being more tragic than another, is stupid.....  death...is death....  and is final...

 

 

My mother was killed by most likely being burned to death in tower one...we still dont know how because we dont have her body...  My cousin was killed the same way...  My friend and Asst Chief was crushed to death at the command post..

and many more....

 

Are their deaths any more tragic than a man/women leaving for work and being killed 'on the job'...whatever that job may be.......and leaving a family alone....??

 

Sorry but if your a policeman/women...you know the risks...if your a fireman you know the risks...if yo work 90 stories in the air you know the risks.....if you do 75 on a highway you know the risks.... get my point...??

 

Just because your a LEO...(and I know the risks and would never do that job) doesn't make your death any better or celebratory than John Doe roofer or sanitation worker...etc......

Well said Nick.

[Combat Auto 174]

Ok, Ok, Here is my 3 point plan for NYPD - toung in cheek but much truth to it:

 

1. Switch the NYPD platform from glock ( i guess) to 1911. Cocked and locked at least that thumb safty will give them a split micr-second to either decide it might not require a shoot, or at least take better aim. (not to mention the better trigger).
2. Have all NYPD study this link and be regirously tested on it every 6 months: (Note all the Tabs not just the intro!): http://www.bullseyepistol.com/zeninfo.htm
3. As stipulated above require all NYPD to shoot the Monthly-Steel Match.

:-).

Another idea:

Pt 4: DO NO HARM to Bystanders!..Change the NYPD ethos from aggressiveness first, to First: Do No Harm. Bystanders should be protected with all the enthusiasm NYPD has for protecting other Cops...Don't forget just last year the LA Cops shot up a pick-up hiting two women several times because they thought it was that Rouge X-Cop...

[fumanchu182 23]

[AlDente67 563]

It seems however that some cops are unwilling to train on their own time and their own dime.  I know others however that DO take their own time and money and attend training classes.  Now, if departmental rules prohibit such (for whatever reason), to me, that's freaking utter stupidity. 

 

 

On a related note... I may have posted this before, but anyway...

 

Friend of a friend with a private range shows up with a full-auto MP5 and a large box of 9mm hollow-points.  Now that gun chews through rounds like popcorn, so given the going price of 9mm, I asked him about the quantity he was shooting (well, we all were taking turns).  He had several thousand rounds in that box.  A pretty penny.

 

So he being a NYC SWAT team lead (or whatever the name is), explained that each team member is given 2 boxes of 9mm per month (100 rounds total).  I don't know what other firearms they use that are 9mm.  The MP5 will go through that in about 2 minutes, so a training session would be quite brief, but anyway...

 

He explained that many members get their 2 free boxes and toss them in a large filing cabinet, never to be used.  So he scoops them up for our amusement.  Makes one question how many members are actually keeping up the practice, unless they prefer a different caliber on their own dime.  I have no idea, but it just seemed odd.

[blksheep 466]

More stories

[gunguy1960 2]

Some of us like stories.

[Duppie 73]

Some of us like stories.

...i'm getting sleepy...

[blksheep 466]

Yup

[AlDente67 563]

More stories

Not sure what your implication is there, but I assume you mean "more BS stories".

 

When the story comes straight from the mouth of the squad leader, I assume it to be true.   But we can ask him directly if he was fabricating the tale if you'd like.

[blksheep 466]

Unless I'm mistaken NYPD ESU only carrys 9mm. When you train with any subgun usually you follow a course. So 100 rounds can last maybe a couple courses. Usually it isn't like youtube videos of people blowing away ammo.

[AlDente67 563]

Unless I'm mistaken NYPD ESU only carrys 9mm. When you train with any subgun usually you follow a course. So 100 rounds can last maybe a couple courses. Usually it isn't like youtube videos of people blowing away ammo.

 Hah!  Or us blowing away 30 rounds on the leaves in the trees due to the kick.  Fun to do once or twice.

[blksheep 466]

Hah! Or us blowing away 30 rounds on the leaves in the trees due to the kick. Fun to do once or twice.

Lol yeah