Question about self defense ammo and its legality in NJ.

[deerpark 83]

Would just like to know whats legal in NJ.  What about something like this:

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hornady-Critical-Defense-Handgun-Ammo/1159879.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D1000003666%26Ne%3D1000003666%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3D9mm%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3DSearchRefinements%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26search%3D9mm%26searchTypeByFilter%3DAllProducts%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=9mm&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

 

or

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Speer-Gold-Dot174-Pistol-Ammunition/705408.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dspeer%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=speer&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

 

Are they essentially the same thing?

 

Maybe it would be easier to ask whats not allowed?

[diamondd817 828]

The speer gold dots are a proven round in every caliber. They are used by many law enforcement agencies including the NYPD (124gr+p 9mm). Its what I have for a home defense/self defense situation.

 

The hornady critical defense stuff is newer. It does well in ballistic gelatin tests, but it is unproven in the real world as far as I know. I don't know of any agency carrying it.

 

Both are legal to own in NJ.

[PK90 3,573]

Maybe it would be easier to ask whats not allowed?

 

Armor piercing handgun ammo

[ClangClang 14]

In NJ, hollowpoints are legal but must be treated like a handgun, i.e. possession/transport is only allowed to/from approved locations.  Possession of even a single hollowpoint cartridge outside of the named exemptions is illegal and an arrestable offense.

[deerpark 83]

I do believe this has been discussed ad nauseum on the forum, as such a search function looking for hollow point discussions or critical defense ammo discussions would yield your answer faster...

 

I do believe I read or saw a letter about POWERBALL ammo...  I cannot place my hand on it..........of which I have loaded in my .45

 

 

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/25580-does-the-law-consider-a-ftx-bullet-a-hollow-point/

 

Well, I found two "relevant" threads but well, here are some quotes:

 

The NJSP Firearms Unit considers Hornady Critical Defense, Federal EFMJ, and Corbon Powerball, NOT to be hollowpoints. The law states nothing about dimensions.

Just use hornady critical duty or critical defense. They are not hollow points under NJ law. Personally I see no reason to use hollow points in NJ unless you want to make a point by getting arrested. 

 

They are considered hollow points as well.

 

 

Lot of misinformation, partial information, and misleading information in this thread...

 

Oops, JackDaWack beat me too it.

 

So errr...  

[deerpark 83]

The speer gold dots are a proven round in every caliber. They are used by many law enforcement agencies including the NYPD (124gr+p 9mm). Its what I have for a home defense/self defense situation.

 

I'm kinda likin' this right 'ere. 

 

But dayam, seems to be sold out everywhere... 

[illy 1]

For HD purposes, I load Critical Defense in all my handgun calibers (.38 .357 & 9mm).

The only exception is .45ACP because Hornady only makes Critical Duty* in 45, so I have a couple of boxes of Winchester Ranger Ts and Speer Gold Dots that caliber.

 

*The main difference between Critical Duty & Critical Defense is that the former is supposed to provide greater hard barrier penetration prior to expansion in the target.

Since I don't carry and will probably never need to shoot through a car door in my rec room, I don't see the need to load something that will over penetrate even more than the average round, by design.

[ogfarmer 138]

I have both Duty&Defense on hand for my 9mm at home

 

Alpo-

 

They both have multiple calibers available

 

http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Duty

 

http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense

 

Here is the difference between the two- http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense

[illy 1]

I have both Duty&Defense on hand for my 9mm at home

 

Alpo-

 

They both have multiple calibers available

 

http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Duty

 

http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense

 

Here is the difference between the two- http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense

 

Oh snap. I've never seen the .45ACP Critical Defense.

 

Thanks for the links

[ogfarmer 138]

tanners in pa usually carries it

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I use Critical Defense when I am in Free America, where I can carry; and have it loaded for HD. But it occurs to me that even if we ever get CCW in this state, we're going to have to load FMJ ammo.

[Tunaman 560]

From what info I can gather,  Federal Guard Dog expands better and is NOT a Hollow Point.  It has a full metal jacket.  Takes all the quess work out of the hollow point question.  We don't need them anymore.  They cant ban these...

[Junior 14]

whats a good price per round for HD or SD 9mm ammo? I see HST, Gold dots, Critical duty/defense anywhere from $.56 to $1.00+ on gunbot. 

 

I usually like to compare gunbot prices to LGS prices but i haven't been to a LGS to check prices in a while. 

 

is this decent? $.54 for Critical Duty? Same price for standard and +P also

 

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/500-round-case-9mm-p-hornady-critical-duty-le-135-grain-ammo-90225

[louu 399]

I asked the Chief if hollow points are legal today and he said nope. Then he pops out one of his extra mags and shows me what they use and it looked kinda like this http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-round-box-40-cal-sw-federal-hydra-shok-jhp-165-grain-ammo-p40hs3. He told me it will put about a six inch hole out of your back.

 

Do as I say not as I do...

[Mikeythumbs 1]

For HD purposes, I load Critical Defense in all my handgun calibers (.38 .357 & 9mm).

The only exception is .45ACP because Hornady only makes Critical Duty* in 45, so I have a couple of boxes of Winchester Ranger Ts and Speer Gold Dots that caliber.

 

*The main difference between Critical Duty & Critical Defense is that the former is supposed to provide greater hard barrier penetration prior to expansion in the target.

Since I don't carry and will probably never need to shoot through a car door in my rec room, I don't see the need to load something that will over penetrate even more than the average round, by design.

Unless they cahnged hornady makes critical defense for .45 they just released it in Duty last year before the ammo crunch and has been hell to find.

[Mikeythumbs 1]

I asked the Chief if hollow points are legal today and he said nope. Then he pops out one of his extra mags and shows me what they use and it looked kinda like this http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-round-box-40-cal-sw-federal-hydra-shok-jhp-165-grain-ammo-p40hs3

 

Do as I say not as I do...

WOW he is right that is not a hollow point that is a flying ashtray like the wincheseter HP

[High Exposure 5,671]

I asked the Chief if hollow points are legal today and he said nope. Then he pops out one of his extra mags and shows me what they use and it looked kinda like this http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-round-box-40-cal-sw-federal-hydra-shok-jhp-165-grain-ammo-p40hs3. He told me it will put about a six inch hole out of your back.

 

Do as I say not as I do...

Sounds like your Chief needs a refresher on NJSA 2C:39-3

 

Also sounds like he needs a realistic expectation of what his sidearm ammo can do to the human body. 6" hole, I don't think so.

 

The Federal Hydra-Shock ammo (that is linked to above) is old technology (early to mid 1990's I believe) and has been replaced with the Federal HST line of duty ammo.

 

Finally, I spoke with a Detective Ross at the NJSP firearms unit a couple of days age regarding acceptable ammo that is not considered hollow point, he referred me to: Corbon Powerball, Hornady Critical Defense, and Federal EFMJ.

[checko 180]

Sounds like your Chief needs a refresher on NJSA 2C:39-3

 

Finally, I spoke with a Detective Ross at the NJSP firearms unit a couple of days age regarding acceptable ammo that is not considered hollow point, he referred me to: Corbon Powerball, Hornady Critical Defense, and Federal EFMJ.

Feel free to get that in writing lol

[boo 6]

I'm lazy to look up the link, my understanding from the Aiken case is that a judge ruled that any ammo that expands "more than usual" is legally hollow point, regardless of whether the point is actually hollow. IANAL, but my understanding is that judges love to follow precedent, so is this a "precedent" that judges would follow? Or is this something that judges would be able to exercise their own discretion? (or is this the kind of thing you'd have to go to trial to find out?).

 

I wonder if instead of asking NJSP, we should be asking our local prosecutors, since they're the ones that will be deciding on what charges to bring or not.

[vladtepes 1,060]

why does it matter? in your home HO ammo is good to go for SD?

[ogfarmer 138]

I suggest listening to Evan Nappen on GFH radio last episode they discuss this

 

http://www.gunforhireradio.com/podcasts/GFH_Episode_133.mp3

[Mr.Stu 1,928]

I'm lazy to look up the link, my understanding from the Aiken case is that a judge ruled that any ammo that expands "more than usual" is legally hollow point, regardless of whether the point is actually hollow. IANAL, but my understanding is that judges love to follow precedent, so is this a "precedent" that judges would follow? Or is this something that judges would be able to exercise their own discretion? (or is this the kind of thing you'd have to go to trial to find out?).

 

I wonder if instead of asking NJSP, we should be asking our local prosecutors, since they're the ones that will be deciding on what charges to bring or not.

 

The appellate court decision refers to NJSA 2C:39-3(f)(1) which encompasses the control of “hollow nose or dum-dum” bullets. The court then goes on to refer to precedent which allows reference to Webster’s for a definition of dum-dum bullets which the court decides dum-dum is“defined as a bullet (as one with a hollow point) that expands more than usual upon hitting an object." This seems to say bullets that expand like hollowpoints as well as bullets that have a hollow nose. Although it is not explicitly stated this would include non-hollow nose bullets such as the EFMJ or Bulldog bullets which are designed to expand upon impact because they are dum-dum bullets.

 

The text of the decision can be found here: http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20NJCO%2020120330329

 

2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices

...

f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or ...

 

Either way, for HD you're good to go with any of them because of the exemption found in 2C:39-3(g)(2)

 

(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f. (1) be construed to prevent any licensed retail or wholesale firearms dealer from possessing such ammunition at its licensed premises, provided that the seller of any such ammunition shall maintain a record of the name, age and place of residence of any purchaser who is not a licensed dealer, together with the date of sale and quantity of ammunition sold.

 

[LorenzoS 100]

Hollow points are completely legal at your home.  So unless you have a NJ concealed carry permit there is no reason at all to use an inferior round just becuase it is notahollowpoint. 

 

The most reliable source of advice on self defense handgun ammunition is contained in this thread:

 

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

[LorenzoS 100]

I asked the Chief if hollow points are legal today and he said nope. Then he pops out one of his extra mags and shows me what they use and it looked kinda like this http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-round-box-40-cal-sw-federal-hydra-shok-jhp-165-grain-ammo-p40hs3. He told me it will put about a six inch hole out of your back.

 

Do as I say not as I do...

 

Your chief doesn't know what the hell he is talking about on either of those points.

[diamondd817 828]

I asked the Chief if hollow points are legal today and he said nope. Then he pops out one of his extra mags and shows me what they use and it looked kinda like this http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-round-box-40-cal-sw-federal-hydra-shok-jhp-165-grain-ammo-p40hs3. He told me it will put about a six inch hole out of your back.

 

Do as I say not as I do...

A 6" hole! Holy crap. Got to get some of that stuff.

[louu 399]

I know, its pretty funny but not really because it seems like nobody really knows what is legal and what is not, not even the police. No wonder all the kids these days just stay in the house snorting perks and playing video games.

[Bt Doctur 188]

Thats a biigger hole than my 1 oz super hollow point slugs, where can i buy that kind of ammo?