ATF want names of people that have 80% lowers

[mipafox 438]

Hey ATF, I have all the ones that aren't accounted for. And BlueFish is a real hard charger and knows me better than I know myself, great team member.

 

Wish you were here. Hugs and Kisses,

 

Mipa

[boo 6]

With all the crack houses and meth labs within a 10 minute drive from that location, it's a damn shame that's the address they have to raid 

[checko 180]

Ah. Gotcha

[pbkid6974 1]

With all the crack houses and meth labs within a 10 minute drive from that location, it's a damn shame that's the address they have to raid 

well you see, that's because a crack/meth house raid might require some planning and actual police work. plus it could possibly be dangerous. that's more DEA territory anyway. but now they get to pat themselves on the back and say what a great job they did getting evil baby killing assault weapons off the streets.

[vladtepes 1,060]

any updates on this? I tried searching the web but didnt come up with any updates.. 

[MidwestPX 172]

any updates on this? I tried searching the web but didnt come up with any updates.. 

Calguns Foundation confirmed that the ATF is in possession of customer lists from both EP Armory and Ares Armor.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

any updates on this? I tried searching the web but didnt come up with any updates.. 

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1602487_ATF_Trying_to_Seize_Ares_Armor_Customer_List_and_Inventory__Update_EP80__ruled_a_Firearm.html&page=7

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-ares-armor-raided-atf/

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-accuses-ares-armor-of-illegal-gun-sales-response-to-restraining-order

[KpdPipes 388]

any updates on this? I tried searching the web but didnt come up with any updates.. 

Seems that AFT violated the Restraining order, broke into Ares' shop, and took the information anyway.     it'll be interesting to see if the Judge lets them get away with it or starts breaking asses.

[ogfarmer 138]

Ares Armor

update: The ATF did execute a search warrant against all of our buildings today. None of our employees have been detained or arrested. We will be open for business tomorrow. We will be back up and shipping out orders on Monday. We wholeheartedly believe that they are WRONG in their actions and we will be relentlessly pursuing remedy through the courts. Quote from an ATF Agent during the raid "searching is fun! paper work sucks." Maybe the ATF thinks the Constitution is part of that paper work that sucks... Despicable behavior on their part. This is just the beginning! Thank you all for the support! -Dimitrios Karras, CEO

[NYMetsFan86 9]

Freedom is fun! Unconstitutional searches suck!

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Here is something go to think about

If a judge grants a restraining order against the ATF shouldn't they not beable to possess firearms? And now that the violated the ro they Deff shouldn't be able too

[Vlad G 345]

It is not that kind of restraining order. Also, I'm not sure that TRO actually restricted them from raiding the place, it seemed to have a criminal investigation exemption.

[RubberBullets 65]

The TRO was modified by the judge to allow the raid.

 

http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/?page_id=110

 

[KpdPipes 388]

Here is something go to think about

If a judge grants a restraining order against the ATF shouldn't they not beable to possess firearms? And now that the violated the ro they Deff shouldn't be able too

 No Shawn, that prohibition is for Domestic Violence RO's

[Nikos 31]

The original reason for the ATF raiding EP Armory, the manufacturer, was because they were mistakenly under the impression that the lower and plug were made separately then assembled.  If that was the case, the ATF would be correct in saying the paperweights were in fact firearms.  However, the way EP Armory makes them is they make the plug and insert the plug in the mold then inject more polymer to make the lower.  The empty fire control group pocket never exists and that's what would have triggered the lower being a firearm.

 

The ATF was provided with the correct/updated manufacturing information yet they continued to press and raid, possibly in defiance of a court-granted injunction.

What's to stop the ATF from classifying the 2 part polymer lower as something that can "readily be converted" into a firearm as defined in the Gun Control Act? 

 

EP Armory has a video embedded on their website showing how easy it is to do the conversion in under an hour. If you look at the 4 minute mark in the video, the white polymer block can be separated, to some extent, from the what the ATF considers to be a firearm. Question is... does this video show that the product can "readily be converted" into a firearm?

 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Didn't know that was for only domestic ro's

[70gto 142]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1602487_ATF_Trying_to_Seize_Ares_Armor_Customer_List_and_Inventory__Update_EP80__ruled_a_Firearm.html

[MidwestPX 172]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's a determination letter for the EP 80% lowers, is there?

[Respect2A 0]

Since they have already been raided now is a good time to buy an 80% lower!

[leadunderpressure 52]

A good time to buy except for the obvious... ATF has all the stock.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Respect2A 0]

A good time to buy except for the obvious... ATF has all the stock.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

They don't have the aluminum ones. That's what I want anyway.

[Malsua 1,422]

So if I understand it all correctly and I might not, please correct me if I am wrong....

 

They basically made a full receiver and then filled some parts with polymer material that can be removed with a dremel tool.......for the FCG and then holes that are already drilled out but filled with additional polymer material to be drilled out...

 

This is what ares is selling.....? 

 

No.  They made the area to be hogged out with one colored material then formed the rest of it in black around the colored block.

 

The issue as I understand it is that someone in the back of the shop was taking people out back with the 80% recievers, mounting them in a milling machine and showing the buyer exactly what material to drill and remove.  The helpful machinist would then "finish" it once the bulk of the material was removed.   This is actually addressed by the ATF in that if you're going to do this particular function, you need to have an FFL.   Someone taking it home and doing it in their own equipment isn't the issue.

[MidwestPX 172]

So if I understand it all correctly and I might not, please correct me if I am wrong....

 

They basically made a full receiver and then filled some parts with polymer material that can be removed with a dremel tool.......for the FCG and then holes that are already drilled out but filled with additional polymer material to be drilled out...

 

This is what ares is selling.....?

EP, the manufacturer, claims they make the plug first then mold the lower around it. So the empty FCG cavity never exists. The FCG holes aren't drilled however they are marked which my understanding is a no-no regardless of material the lower is made of.

[PK90 3,570]

... which my understanding is a no-no regardless of material the lower is made of.

Is that an ATF ruling? I've never seen that written anywhere.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

[MidwestPX 172]

Is that an ATF ruling? I've never seen that written anywhere.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

I thought there was an itemized list of what's not okay like you can't have the FCG milled out, FCG pin and selector hole locations can't be indicated, etc.?

[MidwestPX 172]

Was Ares actually helping people finish them? I haven't seen any court docs to that effect.

[Malsua 1,422]

Was Ares actually helping people finish them? I haven't seen any court docs to that effect.

 

This article has more information.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-search-warrant-sheds-light-reason-atf-raid/

[MidwestPX 172]

This article has more information.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-search-warrant-sheds-light-reason-atf-raid/

Yeah, I've seen that but that's not Ares that was finishing lowers. They asked ATF about it and were shot down so they'd be pretty dumb to have gone down that road.

[raz-0 1,259]

Yeah, I've seen that but that's not Ares that was finishing lowers. They asked ATF about it and were shot down so they'd be pretty dumb to have gone down that road.

 

As far as I can tell, after reading the stupid warrant package. (I'll agree with the ATF agent, paperwork sucks, that thing is stupidly long winded) The only reason I can fathom for that justifying a raid of ares armor is that, as some have stated, Ares supplied LCG with 80% lowers, and they are chasing the trail back to someone who might have more records of what LCG was doing. Anything else IMO would boil down to these guys were doing bad things and these other gusys were doing other bad things, and these guys around here were facilitating similar or worse bad things between these individuals. In which case, one would think that Ares is on the line for building a conspiracy case, however, you would think that the warrant would require some evidence they were involved or likely to be involved in the conspiracy. FRom my perspective, all these folks were doing it and since they proposed a similar model of business and asked permission before being told no, they must be too. 

 

If there is a BATFE einterpretation coming to screw with people, after reading the warrant package, it has nothing to do with polymer, and it has everything to do with redefining manufacturing. 

 

The law states NOTHING about 80% or 94% or whatever. The law states that if something IS a firearm, it must follow the rules, and if it is NOT, must be made by a licensed manufacturer and be serialized before being sold on to anyone. What's in the package would imply that they have a sizable list of people who were playing games regarding taking possession of something that at some point went from being a lump of metal or plastic to being a firearm, and did so in a rather cavalier manner regarding how the law applies to that. There were also folks whose best defense to their actions would be to describe their acts as gunsmithing rather than manufacturing, and if I were a gunsmith, with an FFL or without in those states that permit such, you couldn't pay me to work on a modern non-serialized receiver. However, it is totally unclear from that document that ares was involved in anything other than having asked if they could provide access to cnc machines and operation instruction without being a manufacturer and the BATFE answered no. No evidence is provided beyond that. Between that letter and other content, it would seem the BATFE sees there being some undefined line which can be crossed, and minor hand holding to facilitate you pushing a button on a cnc machine crosses it. Does giving the person a sit down in a classroom on how to use a jig cross it? renting unaided access to a non CNC machine cross it? No idea. 

 

PRobably the absolute worst part of this is that regardless of the findings against Ares, this process of investigating them in connection with a criminal activity that passes msuter for a conspiracy leaves them exposed to the pitfalls of RICO. Which means that if they investigate you three times, they can seize all your assets without a trial. Yay fun.