High Exposure 5,664 Posted June 25, 2017 Add another agency to the list in banning these garbage holsters. http://soldiersystems.net/2017/06/23/lapd-bans-use-of-blackhawk-serpa-holster/ LAPD Bans Use Of Blackhawk Serpa Holster Earlier this week, we began to hear rumors that the Los Angeles Police Department had banned use of the Serpa Holster. We now have confirmation. On June 8, 2017, LAPD issued a directive to its personnel disapproving use of the Blackhawk Serpa holster as well as all auto-locking trigger finger manipulated holsters. The memo goes on to add, “These holsters violate sound weapon manipulation practices and may increase the likelihood of a negligent discharge.” The Official version of the memo seen above has been disseminated throughout the Department and was signed by the Officer In Charge of the Police Sciences and Training Bureau and countersigned by a representative from the Office of the Chief of Police. The LAPD is one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the United States and a leader in the development of policies and procedures. They now join numerous federal agencies who have also banned use of the Serpa holster. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted June 25, 2017 Mesa side saddle ok, Sherpa bad 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blksheep 466 Posted June 25, 2017 Alot of instructors ban these too. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted June 25, 2017 If you jump on M4Carbine.net, someone who is actually familiar with LAPD directives/memos has said it doesn't look like anything he has seen before...Also, look up the LAPD Organization Chart, on their website. The "Police Sciences and Training Bureau" is not on there... "Personnel and Training Bureau" is.We can have the Serpa argument, but basic research shows that image is BS... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted June 25, 2017 Banning something because you think it's dangerous, this list is endless. Train with it, and you'll be fine. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted June 25, 2017 The Marines use them and no issues. Had this conversation with my Gunny SgtSent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blksheep 466 Posted June 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Ray Ray said: Banning something because you think it's dangerous, this list is endless. Train with it, and you'll be fine. Ive seen them lockup with minor everyday debri to the point we had to cut the holster off with a dremel to get the gun out. Thats a life/death issue for me. I highly discourage them also. 2 hours ago, bhunted said: The Marines use them and no issues. Had this conversation with my Gunny Sgt Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro There are better options. Normal People/LEO/Military dont really know any better 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted June 25, 2017 Never liked them because of their locking mechanism. blksheep's post above confirms it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diamondd817 827 Posted June 25, 2017 5 hours ago, Screwball said: If you jump on M4Carbine.net, someone who is actually familiar with LAPD directives/memos has said it doesn't look like anything he has seen before... Also, look up the LAPD Organization Chart, on their website. The "Police Sciences and Training Bureau" is not on there... "Personnel and Training Bureau" is. We can have the Serpa argument, but basic research shows that image is BS... Fake News? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted June 25, 2017 Fake News?I've only seen it on that Soldier Systems article... so, until I see them confirm their source, I'll chalk it up to BS.If you are the commanding officer for a part of such a large organization, that is head of training... I'd think you'd put the correct Bureau on the "memo" that is to be distributed to roughy 10,000 sworn members. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blksheep 466 Posted June 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, Screwball said: I've only seen it on that Soldier Systems article... so, until I see them confirm their source, I'll chalk it up to BS. If you are the commanding officer for a part of such a large organization, that is head of training... I'd think you'd put the correct Bureau on the "memo" that is to be distributed to roughy 10,000 sworn members. Youd be surprised... 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted June 25, 2017 People think appendix carry is dangerous. People think cross-draw holsters are dangerous. People think pocket holsters are dangerous. People think "cocked and locked" is dangerous. The list is endless. And people have been shot using EVERY method and holster. Train, train, train. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted June 25, 2017 http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/1063 Go to link, click on organization chart, look in lower left hand corner, and Deputy Chief Jon Peters is listed as head of Police Sciences and Training. Even if it were "fake news" there are a bunch of agencies that have banned them due to safety issues (trigger finger placement) and failures of the release mechanism. I didn't like them when I first saw them due to the release mechanism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted June 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ray Ray said: People think appendix carry is dangerous. People think cross-draw holsters are dangerous. People think pocket holsters are dangerous. People think "cocked and locked" is dangerous. The list is endless. And people have been shot using EVERY method and holster. Train, train, train. Yes Ray, all those things you listed have been criticized. However the issues with the Serpa can't really be addressed by training effectively. All the training in the world is not going to fix failure of the release mechanism preventing you from getting your gun out of the holster. Training to push the release, get your finger off the release and away from the holster when your gun comes out is too much of a motor skill to waste training time on. Use a open top, thumb break, or retention strap holster and the problem goes away. Easier fix. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blksheep 466 Posted June 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, GRIZ said: Yes Ray, all those things you listed have been criticized. However the issues with the Serpa can't really be addressed by training effectively. All the training in the world is not going to fix failure of the release mechanism preventing you from getting your gun out of the holster. Training to push the release, get your finger off the release and away from the holster when your gun comes out is too much of a motor skill to waste training time on. Use a open top, thumb break, or retention strap holster and the problem goes away. Easier fix. @Ray Ray Thats my issue with em. Not really the finger thingy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted June 25, 2017 For what MOST of us do, a Serpa rig will suffice. You can make anything not work with misuse, abuse and not taking care of your gear. If you want to drag it around in the dirt and mud, then go ahead. You can drag your gun and rifle through that same stuff and both won't work either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted June 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, Ray Ray said: For what MOST of us do, a Serpa rig will suffice. You can make anything not work with misuse, abuse and not taking care of your gear. If you want to drag it around in the dirt and mud, then go ahead. You can drag your gun and rifle through that same stuff and both won't work either. Well, maybe so. I don't know how many draws will make the Serpa fail. But when it fails you can't get your gun out. All mechanical devices have a failure rate. A thumb break or safety strap fails it won't retain the gun but you can still get it out. If you never envision having to get your gun out without cutting the holster off the Serpa will do I guess. A holster needs to be able to take some abuse. You fall, bump into things, and many other things a holster needs to be able to take. A holster not only holds the gun but protects the gun. Okay, a lot of competition holsters do little to protect but that's a game. I have leather holsters that are over 30 years old that still are serviceable. Not much needed in the care department if you buy quality leather. There was one well known gun writer that advocated leaving the retention device unfastened until you needed it. I don't agree with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted June 25, 2017 Get one of these. Was my first duty holster.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted June 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Ray Ray said: People think appendix carry is dangerous. People think cross-draw holsters are dangerous. People think pocket holsters are dangerous. People think "cocked and locked" is dangerous. The list is endless. And people have been shot using EVERY method and holster. Train, train, train. Ray, two things: First - you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Training with this piece of shit holster is what brought these deficiencies to light. It was realistic training that made people realize that the mechanism is flimsy and prone to breakage. That the placement of the release is not ideal and actually sets you up for failure when under stress. That the screws holding the holster to the belt attachment can rip out of the plastic with moderate force. That snow, mud, sand, dirt, gravel, etc.. can lock these holsters up so bad you need tin snips to cut the holster away. That getting your pistol hung up on your seat belt as you get out of your car and snap the hinge pin to the retention mechanism making it impossible to get you gun out of your holster. Seriously How is wearing a seat belt misuse or abuse? When a US military unit has a TTP of one guy has to carry a mallet to "un-stick" their Berettas from their SERPAs because they are getting fouled in the environment they operate in, that is a problem that training can only identify. Training will not help you overcome that deficiency. There are dozens of quality holsters out there at a similar price, why settle for mediocrity bordering on a safety violation? Like it or not, a holster is life saving gear for those of us that carry a gun. I bet you wear a seat belt when you drive right? Why don't you just train to drive better and not wear it? Second - There is a real and distinct difference between unsafe and dangerous. The level of danger is inherent in whatever activity you are doing. The safety factor is based on the choices you make while participating in these activities. For example, rock climbing, shooting sports, motorcycle racing are all inherently dangerous activities. The choices you make: deciding to using a rope, buying a quality holster to carry your gun, wearing a DOT certified helmet, all help to make these dangerous activities safer. Why purposefully choose to use a piece of gear that is proven to fail with relatively low levels of use when there are so many better options out there? The only reason these holsters are still made is because people are cheap, and so are the SERPAs. Because someone will go out and drop $1500 on the newest blaster and then carry it in a cheaply made garbage $15 holster. I particularly blame cops for this. The only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops. The only thing cheaper than that is a Police Administrator. People see cops carrying these holsters and think, hmm, the cops have them they must be good. They most deifinitely are not good... 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tony357 386 Posted June 25, 2017 Ole Tex and his Serpa 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blksheep 466 Posted June 25, 2017 Most cops should never be the measure of what gear to buy. 1 minute ago, tony357 said: Ole Tex and his Serpa 2 Love this video. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted June 25, 2017 1 minute ago, blksheep said: Most cops should never be the measure of what gear to buy. A Fucking Men! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted June 25, 2017 I get it, guys don't like them. They are dangerous. Just like Glocks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tony357 386 Posted June 25, 2017 Just now, Ray Ray said: I get it, guys don't like them. They are dangerous. Just like Glocks. imagine if Tex had a Serpa and a Glock.. Oh My.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted June 26, 2017 13 minutes ago, blksheep said: Most cops should never be the measure of what gear to buy. Love this video. So true..if the dept doesn't pay for it or supply it then they will get whatever they can to skate by the cheapest. Oh and don't expect police dept issued equpt to be better. Usually bought by house mousers with no experience and used by cops who don't take care of it because its not theirs 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted June 26, 2017 Weren't Glocks considered dangerous, were they not? They had no external safety, they were polymer, they were chambered in 9mm. Danger! But guess what? They were wrong. So, use what you want. Just don't shoot me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted June 26, 2017 13 hours ago, bhunted said: The Marines use them and no issues. Had this conversation with my Gunny Sgt Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro When its a double action pistol with the safety on, indeed you may not have a ND problem. But it does leave the pistol locked in a holster problem. Ive personally freed 2 pistols out of a Serpa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acaixguard 37 Posted June 26, 2017 Glock, and any gun = dangerous. Because as HE said, there is inherent danger in its capabilities. Just like motorcycles, skydiving, etc. Serpa = unsafe. Qualities that enhance the dangerous capabilities of holster and the drawstroke. Characteristics that do not exist with other holsters. The real question is, why in the world does anyone even consider these holsters anymore? We can continue to have the debate of how safe the holster is to use (even though it's not), but nothing changes the fact that it's still a POS! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,369 Posted June 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Ray Ray said: Weren't Glocks considered dangerous, were they not? They had no external safety, they were polymer, they were chambered in 9mm. Danger! But guess what? They were wrong. So, use what you want. Just don't shoot me. Ray, all guns are dangerous. They'd be useless if they weren't. It's dangerous to drive 65 mph. It's unsafe to do it with bald tires and no brakes. Parachuting is dangerous. It's unsafe to do it with your chute packed in a garbage bag. See acaixguard's post. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted June 26, 2017 There is no point in trying to explain logic to a contrarian..... 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites