Civilian, Non-Law Enforcement Carry Permit Aplication Help

[ryan_j 0]

What if we all just register 24/7/365 security company business? Name yourself as soul proprietor? Then you hire yourself to protect yourself 24/7/365. There's no law im aware of that says you cant hire yourself to provide services to yourself if you own a business? I don't think its illegal to hire a security company to protect yourself either. Issue your need to carry letter to yourself? Then we can all apply for carry permits because we need them for our line of work. You can even write yourself a paycheck every week. Probably need an insurance policy im sure. Has anyone ever tried this? Or is my creative idea crazy? Sent using Tapatalk 2 NOW FREE!!!

 

 

Judge will deny the permit. They'll see right through this. 

[ElmerFudd 0]

If you live in trenton or newark, you must qualify for one, no?

 

If only...some punk actually pulled a gun on me in Newark just last night.

 

Though I still would rather get the hell out of dodge rather than get into a gun fight on the street. 

[ryan_j 0]

I think we've well established that even the actual definition of justifiable need is not enough to get a permit, unless you really push hard and have something to embarrass the state with. 

[djg0770 481]

If only...some punk actually pulled a gun on me in Newark just last night.

 

Though I still would rather get the hell out of dodge rather than get into a gun fight on the street. 

 

We are all thinking it...

 

 

What kind of gun? 

[ElmerFudd 0]

We are all thinking it...

 

 

What kind of gun? 

 

Ha! Honestly, I stopped short of getting close enough to discern the exact model.  All I could see was a mid-sized dark handgun (probably a glock).  Took advantage of the fact that he was on a bike and his momentum was carrying him forward when he tried to cut me off so I just booked it in the other direction (apparently, I'm Usain Bolt).  

 

Darn...maybe I should have asked him what model it was.  I've been dying to check out a Gen 4. 

 

 

Anyways, just highlights the fact that only law-abiding citizens are being disarmed in this state.  The criminals get to issue their own permits.

[djg0770 481]

Likely a Hi Point.

 

Next time shout at him that instead of getting the next iPhone he should upgrade his personal offensive protection choice.

[Se9 0]

Can't we just ask the state to define justifiable need and put the burden on them can't we get a class action lawsuit to do this

[DeerSlayer 241]

Judge will deny the permit. They'll see right through this.

not if you first get your permit to carry at work. Then after its issued contract your company to provide protection for yourself as a client 24-7-365. How could the court tell you who your corporation who you can and cant work for? I think I'm just way more intelligent than the lawmakers who wrote these laws. I may not be the only person who has thought of this idea. But I guess no one has had the balls to try it. If someone did they would have to re write the laws to stop it. If I ever get the opportunity to speak to Nappan I want to ask him about it.

 

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[henrym 19]

not if you first get your permit to carry at work. Then after its issued contract your company to provide protection for yourself as a client 24-7-365. How could the court tell you who your corporation who you can and cant work for? I think I'm just way more intelligent than the lawmakers who wrote these laws. I may not be the only person who has thought of this idea. But I guess no one has had the balls to try it. If someone did they would have to re write the laws to stop it. If I ever get the opportunity to speak to Nappan I want to ask him about it.

 

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Even if your initial attempt was successful, your renewal would then get denied.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Even if your initial attempt was successful, your renewal would then get denied.

your probably correct about that one.

 

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[1563621 388]

I had a 45 to my forehead in MSG. I worked in Newark, walked out from 1-4 am to my car parked 3 blocks away. I worked in a gunshop. Was told wear to and fro.{OPENED UP and a keyholder] Have C&R, FLA. permit. Did not bother with UTAH. Had pink cards. Worked county security. Yet, would not even bother trying for NJ carry.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Can't we just ask the state to define justifiable need and put the burden on them can't we get a class action lawsuit to do this

I think that's a great idea, but it's way too logical, so it will never happen in this state.  If it's not defined, then no one can ever know what it really means.

 

 

I had a 45 to my forehead in MSG. I worked in Newark, walked out from 1-4 am to my car parked 3 blocks away. I worked in a gunshop. Was told wear to and fro.{OPENED UP and a keyholder] Have C&R, FLA. permit. Did not bother with UTAH. Had pink cards. Worked county security. Yet, would not even bother trying for NJ carry.

Is this in code or something?  Because I can't quite decipher it.

[PDM 91]

Two points:

 

1.  A security company in NJ needs to have a LEO as its head and there are other requirements.  Can't just form one and hire yourself to get a carry permit.

 

2.  Justifiable need is defined in the NJ admin code.  This can be amended by the governor and attorney general.  I believe that it is within the Governor's power to change the definition of justifiable need in such a way as to cause our "may issue" system to essentially function as shall issue, with the training and qualification requirement.  He isn't being honest when he pins the inability to carry a firearm on the NJ legislature.  He could change it -- or at least attempt to -- by broadening the definition of justifiable need in the Admin Code to include "a desire to exercise the right of self defense" and have the AG instruct judges accordingly.  I don't think judges would necessarily be bound to follow this, but it would definitely help.

[ryan_j 0]

Even if your initial attempt was successful, your renewal would then get denied.

 

Or the judge will put some ridiculous restriction on it that "must be strictly adhered to."

[1563621 388]

I had a 45 caliber handgun to my forehead in Madison Square Garden.  I worked in Newark, NJ, daily and exited work @ 1-3 am. Usually parked 3 blocks away from the Rock and walked there. I was an employee in a Gunshop with a Pink card and had a right to carry when in store or picking up or dropping off firearms.

    I open carried to and fro. Since I was a keyholder and had access to store inventory I was told to carry to and fro. I was a County Security Officer. I have a C&R FFL, I have a FLA. carry permit.

Yet, I would NOT attempt to apply for a NJ CCW. It would be denied. I met a Jeweler from Lakewood with the permit. Had to show deposits of cash in excess of 50K and prove that he carried Diamonds and cash regularly. He got a permit.

[ryan_j 0]

Two points:

 

1.  A security company in NJ needs to have a LEO as its head and there are other requirements.  Can't just form one and hire yourself to get a carry permit.

 

2.  Justifiable need is defined in the NJ admin code.  This can be amended by the governor and attorney general.  I believe that it is within the Governor's power to change the definition of justifiable need in such a way as to cause our "may issue" system to essentially function as shall issue, with the training and qualification requirement.  He isn't being honest when he pins the inability to carry a firearm on the NJ legislature.  He could change it -- or at least attempt to -- by broadening the definition of justifiable need in the Admin Code to include "a desire to exercise the right of self defense" and have the AG instruct judges accordingly.  I don't think judges would necessarily be bound to follow this, but it would definitely help.

 

#1 is not entirely true. The qualification is member of an organized police department for 5 years OR 5 years investigative experience, which I believe means you can work under a PI. To operate a security company in NJ you need a private detective license, and you can even get a CCW with that (it will most likely be restricted, however). 

 

#2 I don't know if it's that easy. The NJAC is defined by a state agency known as the Office of Administrative Law or OAL. I believe the current definition of justifiable need came from previous court decisions. What would be interesting is if after Christie gets re-elected if he would be willing to mess with the definition of justifiable need as a lame duck since he can't be re-elected. And enacting CCW in NJ would help to rally the Republican base for a 2016 POTUS run. 

 

I think it may be worthwhile to ask an attorney such as Evan Nappen what he thinks about this. But judging from what he says in the book, basically the current definition was based on previous anti-gun court decisions. 

 

Of course this may all be moot if SCOTUS takes a case and we win. 

[Se9 0]

How many people does it take to start a class action suite going

Do we have to first apply for a ccw get denied then start a civil suite

[djg0770 481]

Suite is pronounced sweet. Like office suite.

 

You're talking about bringing a lawsuit.

[ryan_j 0]

How many people does it take to start a class action suite going

Do we have to first apply for a ccw get denied then start a civil suite

 

Lawsuit was already started. Denied at the 3rd circuit, but still time to file a cert petition for the supreme court. 

[1LtCAP 4,263]

just out of curiosity....what is the repercussion if one applies, and is turned down in nj?

[ryan_j 0]

just out of curiosity....what is the repercussion if one applies, and is turned down in nj?

 

You will have to disclose it if they ask (such as on the STS-033 form). It's just checking an extra box and if they ask why you tell them. NO negative effects, just this extra badge of shame. 

[Se9 0]

Well technically u weren't denied a fid card just a ccw permit so do u really have to disclose that

If u already have a fid card when u fill out for pistol permits why check the box

[Se9 0]

And as far as a lawsuit to the state we will be asking for explanation as to what constitutes justifiable need a language and clarity of the law

We are not asking for justifiable need we want the state to interpret the language of the law is

In other words they need to explain to the people how to go about the process with out denying the process

I'm sure the courts will be glad to do that but ya need a lawyer to start the process

[illy 1]

there's a nj court opinion somewhere, in which the court, stating that there was no clear standard for imminent danger, turned to the definition of when lethal force is permitted.

in other words, they decided to define justifiable need as being in imminent danger of death or bodily harm and they defined that as the same standard look to when you actually have pulled a gun and shot someone.

 

in yet other words, someone has to be shooting at you in a situation where you can't retreat before they let you a carry permit. of course by then it's too late.

[PDM 91]

I'm not an expert in administrative law, but I believe that, since the permitting process is essentially an administrative procedure that was wrongly placed in the hands of judges, changing the administrative code with a direction from the AG on how to interpret justifiable need could at least cause some judges to issue more permits, case precedent notwithstanding.  I would be very interested to hear what Nappen or another NJ firearms lawyer has to say about it.

[LorenzoS 100]

Guys, the NJ2AS is already in the middle of legal action challenging the entire justifiable need scheme.  Check out their subforum here for more information. Joining and supporting the NJ2AS is the best way you can help.

[Se9 0]

That's like the police showing up after the fact and telling u they are protecting u

It's not up to the police or the courts to determin what constitutes protection

I herd on the radio this morning over 3000 no death shootings go unsolved with in nj ( dies not count trenton)the police chief said that this means that these criminals are still on the loose

[GRIZ 3,369]

not if you first get your permit to carry at work. Then after its issued contract your company to provide protection for yourself as a client 24-7-365. How could the court tell you who your corporation who you can and cant work for? I think I'm just way more intelligent than the lawmakers who wrote these laws. I may not be the only person who has thought of this idea. But I guess no one has had the balls to try it.

Being "way more intelligent than the lawmakers" could also get you in trobule. Say you spend the thousands to incorporate, secure licenses and insurance, and get your permit and paid taxes twice on the money you earned and then paid to yourself do you really think everyone is going to ignore the false statements you made. What false statements? The whole purpose of you doing all this is to get a carrry permit not conduct a business. If you escape criminal prosecution there is no doubt a bunch of civil violations you could be charged with.

 

Prisons are full of people who are "way more intelligent than the lawmakers".

 

Donate a few thousand to support the NJ2AS's petition. You'll get more results than forming a phony security company.

[ryan_j 0]

Guys, the NJ2AS is already in the middle of legal action challenging the entire justifiable need scheme.  Check out their subforum here for more information. Joining and supporting the NJ2AS is the best way you can help.

 

There are a few challenges to it. One is in the NJ supreme court and another is awaiting a cert petition to the US supreme court. Maryland also has a case going to the Supreme Court and this could grant us some relief as well. So keep your eyes peeled and support all of your pro 2A organizations. I'd especially toss a few bucks to the Second Amendment Foundation to cover legal costs for fighting these lawsuits.

[ryan_j 0]

Well technically u weren't denied a fid card just a ccw permit so do u really have to disclose that

If u already have a fid card when u fill out for pistol permits why check the box

 

False you need to disclose that you were denied a carry permit. Read the form STS-33. If you lie you WILL get in trouble. Lying to the police is not good.