NJ LAWMAKERS ANNOUNCE PLANS TO DESTROY RIGHT TO CARRY

[Walkinguf61 40]

1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

Okay you have to an agency approved holster when qualifying.  You can switch holsters but your agency will dictate what holsters you can switch to.

Whilst.the state says you don't have to qualify with your off duty gun I don't know of any agency that doesn't require you to qualify with your off duty and any firearm you use on duty.

The state requirements are interesting but the agency requirements can, and often are, more restricting.

I know of at least a couple of agencies that require their LEOS to carry a less than lethal weapon if they're carrying a gun off duty.  I even know agencies that require you to carry expandable baton and pepper spray if you're carrying off duty.

OT but 99.99% of the confrontations you might encounter will require less than lethal force.  If you're carrying a gun you should be carrying a ltl option.  If you see every confrontation as a nail you'll use the hammer.

 

 

Most departments tend to just have general guidelines toward off duty holsters. It leaves a lot of room to choose. And even then, I know cops who violate these guidelines all the time off duty . 
As far as less lethal 
Even when I was an active LEO with all the gear actually on me, I was more hands on than to use the gear such as pepper spray or the taser. I also did plainclothes where I didn’t always have all the equipment. 
 

Pepper spray before the taser because if I used the taser it was a pain afterward. The paperwork and the required trip to the hospital to remove the prongs . And when I did use the taser, it only worked — as in desired effect about 50% of the time. Todays cops seem too reliant on it and hesitate when it doesn’t work. Pepper spray, especially with the foam feature tends to work to at least blind the guy. The downside is one can build a tolerance to it. And the possible blowback from wind . Also I have been pepper sprayed ( blowback or just having to wrestle with someone covered in it )that I could still fight after exposure. But I would usually go hands on— usually more effective but I’m old and broken now. Pepper spray isn’t bad.

Stun gun? It is not like the movies where the person gets knocked out. It’s just pain. The taser drive stun is just a stun gun. Without the prongs in properly , the muscles won’t contract the same way . But people can power thru it , especially if they are on drugs . 
For most departments, off duty carry of less lethal is not required with or without their off duty firearm. They tend not want the off duty to get directly involved unless it’s a serious crime and even then they usually want the off duty to report it and let the on duty officers handle it if possible. The off duty firearm is for the protection of the officer. The same reason retired officers carry. The difference is that the off duty could be called in at any moment to act. 
Most departments don’t require less lethal because it’s just too much to carry all the time . Also, do you think most of those officers in those departments follow that policy?
Just being authorized to carry department issued pepper spray or less lethal off duty is relatively new to most LE departments. Just in my career time , I remember when NJ officers were not allowed to carry some of these less lethal while on duty and I remember when departments around the country started to authorize its off duty carry. 
Go ahead and carry less lethal . And even off duty,  and an active LEO., handcuffs aren’t a bad idea ( I made an off duty arrest and had to explain why I had handcuffs to the grand jury— I was in plainclothes and it was easier just to leave the stuff on then take it off — see the movie - In the Line of Fire- for an example why.) But carrying all of this stuff will make you look like a nut case especially if a civil suit comes. I also made off duty arrests with just the gun too. 

As far as an ASP or Billy club/nightstick, that is a no go. Besides the Rodney King look and definitely considered a weapon, it can be seen as a deadly weapon as opposed to less lethal . In NYS, pepper spray misuse is the same as a physical punch— a misdemeanor. A Billy club strike is a felony and is not perceived as a self defense tool and more of an offensive one. 
I guess this was just a long winded way to say having just a gun and getting to a defense physical altercation doesn’t mean you will use the gun. 
 

[xXxplosive 824]

we're not police and this is the 2A.......Vox Populi, Vox Dei.

[voyager9 3,434]

9 hours ago, GRIZ said:

I even know agencies that require you to carry expandable baton and pepper spray if you're carrying off duty.

Aren’t collapsible or expanding batons prohibited for civilians?

[GRIZ 3,369]

12 hours ago, Walkinguf61 said:

Most departments tend to just have general guidelines toward off duty holsters. It leaves a lot of room to choose. And even then, I know cops who violate these guidelines all the time off duty . 
As far as less lethal 
Even when I was an active LEO with all the gear actually on me, I was more hands on than to use the gear such as pepper spray or the taser. I also did plainclothes where I didn’t always have all the equipment. 
 

Pepper spray before the taser because if I used the taser it was a pain afterward. The paperwork and the required trip to the hospital to remove the prongs . And when I did use the taser, it only worked — as in desired effect about 50% of the time. Todays cops seem too reliant on it and hesitate when it doesn’t work. Pepper spray, especially with the foam feature tends to work to at least blind the guy. The downside is one can build a tolerance to it. And the possible blowback from wind . Also I have been pepper sprayed ( blowback or just having to wrestle with someone covered in it )that I could still fight after exposure. But I would usually go hands on— usually more effective but I’m old and broken now. Pepper spray isn’t bad.

Stun gun? It is not like the movies where the person gets knocked out. It’s just pain. The taser drive stun is just a stun gun. Without the prongs in properly , the muscles won’t contract the same way . But people can power thru it , especially if they are on drugs . 
For most departments, off duty carry of less lethal is not required with or without their off duty firearm. They tend not want the off duty to get directly involved unless it’s a serious crime and even then they usually want the off duty to report it and let the on duty officers handle it if possible. The off duty firearm is for the protection of the officer. The same reason retired officers carry. The difference is that the off duty could be called in at any moment to act. 
Most departments don’t require less lethal because it’s just too much to carry all the time . Also, do you think most of those officers in those departments follow that policy?
Just being authorized to carry department issued pepper spray or less lethal off duty is relatively new to most LE departments. Just in my career time , I remember when NJ officers were not allowed to carry some of these less lethal while on duty and I remember when departments around the country started to authorize its off duty carry. 
Go ahead and carry less lethal . And even off duty,  and an active LEO., handcuffs aren’t a bad idea ( I made an off duty arrest and had to explain why I had handcuffs to the grand jury— I was in plainclothes and it was easier just to leave the stuff on then take it off — see the movie - In the Line of Fire- for an example why.) But carrying all of this stuff will make you look like a nut case especially if a civil suit comes. I also made off duty arrests with just the gun too. 

As far as an ASP or Billy club/nightstick, that is a no go. Besides the Rodney King look and definitely considered a weapon, it can be seen as a deadly weapon as opposed to less lethal . In NYS, pepper spray misuse is the same as a physical punch— a misdemeanor. A Billy club strike is a felony and is not perceived as a self defense tool and more of an offensive one. 
I guess this was just a long winded way to say having just a gun and getting to a defense physical altercation doesn’t mean you will use the gun. 
 

Your response shows the disparity of policies of agencies.  Moreso differences between Federal and state policies. Pepper spray same as a punch in NYS?  My agency looked at pepper spray as a soft technique.  The same as putting your hand on their shoulder.

Batons? Felony in NYS? Offensive weapon? My agency looked at then as a hard technique but better to use (in a disparity of force case) to maybe break a bone than have to shoot your opponent.

4 hours ago, voyager9 said:

Aren’t collapsible or expanding batons prohibited for civilians?

I believe they are.

[Walkinguf61 40]

30 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Your response shows the disparity of policies of agencies.  Moreso differences between Federal and state policies. Pepper spray same as a punch in NYS?  My agency looked at pepper spray as a soft technique.  The same as putting your hand on their shoulder.

Batons? Felony in NYS? Offensive weapon? My agency looked at then as a hard technique but better to use (in a disparity of force case) to maybe break a bone than have to shoot your opponent.

I believe they are.

Yes, different departments have different use of force policies.

My old department can use the baton and such but you never know what these DAs are going to do. I would leave that thing in my locker when possible. 
The pepper spray the equivalent to a punch is what the criminal law says for everyone and not under police powers or department guidelines. Use of pepper spray by police can be the equivalent of simple physical force depending on the circumstances in NY too but it’s not a “soft  technique “ here like a hand on the shoulder. If it’s used, a use of force report is generated. 
My commentary of “ offensive” vs “defensive “ is not how the departments would describe it but rather how it’s seen by outsiders. The departments like the taser and pepper spray over many uses of physical force beyond wrestling because it doesn’t cause lasting physical injury. 
Heck, if you use more than an arm grab like wrestle some to the ground, a use of force report has to be generated now in my old department. It wasn’t always like that.

[GRIZ 3,369]

8 hours ago, Walkinguf61 said:

Yes, different departments have different use of force policies.

My old department can use the baton and such but you never know what these DAs are going to do. I would leave that thing in my locker when possible. 
The pepper spray the equivalent to a punch is what the criminal law says for everyone and not under police powers or department guidelines. Use of pepper spray by police can be the equivalent of simple physical force depending on the circumstances in NY too but it’s not a “soft  technique “ here like a hand on the shoulder. If it’s used, a use of force report is generated. 
My commentary of “ offensive” vs “defensive “ is not how the departments would describe it but rather how it’s seen by outsiders. The departments like the taser and pepper spray over many uses of physical force beyond wrestling because it doesn’t cause lasting physical injury. 
Heck, if you use more than an arm grab like wrestle some to the ground, a use of force report has to be generated now in my old department. It wasn’t always like that.

I worked under the policies of my federal agency.  Much more liberal (for you) than state guidelines. I had to make it clear to state and local task force officers that when they.were working for us, on our jobs, our policies applied not state policies.

[Walkinguf61 40]

52 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

I worked under the policies of my federal agency.  Much more liberal (for you) than state guidelines. I had to make it clear to state and local task force officers that when they.were working for us, on our jobs, our policies applied not state policies.

Compared to some of our policies, the feds have less stringent policies. My fed friends can’t believe what we had to deal with. But I have done joint task forces/operations with other departments/agencies. Some have it worse. The guys I know love working on fed joint task forces— a lot less headaches. 

[CMJeepster 2,778]

20 hours ago, GRIZ said:

I believe they are.

That's my understanding as well.  I looked into getting one for each vehicles years ago and discovered that they were even more deadly that a BB or pellet gun in the eyes of the state.  

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Not sure why you guys are all talking about Police/Federal Agency/LEO Policies - isn't this whole thing about CIVILIAN carry?  Keep it on topic please.

[GRIZ 3,369]

2 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Not sure why you guys are all talking about Police/Federal Agency/LEO Policies - isn't this whole thing about CIVILIAN carry?  Keep it on topic please.

Point taken but don't you think NJ is going to come up with the most restrictive policy they can think of?

[Krdshrk 3,877]

4 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Point taken but don't you think NJ is going to come up with the most restrictive policy they can think of?

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  No point in building it up to the point where we start infighting and getting apoplectic over speculation and fear. 

Remember - we're dealing with the NJSP vs the legislature.  We were worried about the "training requirements" put on the new FID... was a few slides on a slideshow presentation.  

[GRIZ 3,369]

10 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  No point in building it up to the point where we start infighting and getting apoplectic over speculation and fear. 

Remember - we're dealing with the NJSP vs the legislature.  We were worried about the "training requirements" put on the new FID... was a few slides on a slideshow presentation.  

Far from apoplectic. NJ LEOs basically have to spot the bad guy the first shot.  NJ statutes require us to invite the BG out of our homes.

Yes the few slides for a FID were what NJ thought they could get away with.

NJSP is mostly on our side.  Publish IMI m1 Carbines didn't fall under AWB. Until reneged on by the governor/legislature.

You may fear but most of us don't.  It's about speculation on what they may come up with.

When I started as a municipal police officer in 1974 I got 48 hrs firearms training. The chief was cheap and once I qualified my first week let me carry a gun.

When I became a Federal officer they did the same thing but had 80 plus hrs of firearms training.

Don't you think if NJ could get away with it they'd require 80 hrs of training?

[Fawkesguy 57]

6 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Don't you think if NJ could get away with it they'd require 80 hrs of training?

It's all guessing and conjecture.  We won't know until we know.  So what's the point of discussing what cops did or used to do for their training/requirements?  NJ could get away with 800 hours of training if they wanted to.  We'll know in about 10 days.  Then we can have a fact-based discussion of what we actually face.

[xXxplosive 824]

we're not LE and this is about the 2A.........

[Fawkesguy 57]

3 minutes ago, xXxplosive said:

we're not LE and this is about the 2A.........

Yep, that too.  

[1LtCAP 4,264]

On 6/16/2023 at 11:33 PM, Walkinguf61 said:

New York is already there. People who had their permits for decades have to take the 16 hour course.

it's about nj being allowed to move the goal posts. again.

and sadly they'll get away with it somehow.

[Fawkesguy 57]

Surprise, surprise....

https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1671274834276302851?t=77NgVSLos1hSYyi0mnaVQQ&s=19

[voyager9 3,434]

Meanwhile on topic.  
3rd Circus partially grants stay on the injunction.  

 

[bennj 215]

beat me to it.

Oh well, and I just spent a week carrying everywhere in Vermont, what a freeing experience.

Koons_v_Platkin_Order_on_Motion_to_Stay.pdf

[Xtors 333]

Utter BS. Obama, Trump and Biden appointees.

Correct me if I am wrong but that includes:

(6) within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, demonstration or event is held for which a government permit is required, during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration or event;

(9) a nursery school, pre-school, zoo, or summer camp;

(10) a park, beach, recreation facility or area or playground owned or controlled by a State, county or local government unit, or any part of such a place, which is designated as a gun-free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety;

(12) a publicly owned or leased library or museum;

(15) a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served, and any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises;

(17) a privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility within this State, including but not limited to a theater, stadium, museum, arena, racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, exhibits, games or contests are held;

(18) a casino and related facilities, including but not limited to appurtenant hotels, retail premises, restaurant and bar facilities, and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property;

(21) a health care facility, including but not limited to a general hospital, special hospital, psychiatric hospital, public health center, diagnostic center, treatment center, rehabilitation center, extended care facility, skilled nursing home, nursing home, intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, chronic disease hospital, maternity hospital, outpatient clinic, dispensary, assisted living center, home health care agency, residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office, or ambulatory care facility;

[voyager9 3,434]

22 minutes ago, Xtors said:

Utter BS. Obama, Trump and Biden appointees.

Unsurprisingly 

Quote

*Judge Porter dissents from this aspect of the order and would have denied the  Emergency Motion for Stay Pending Appeal.

 

[Xtors 333]

4 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

*Judge Porter dissents from this aspect of the order and would have denied the  Emergency Motion for Stay Pending Appeal.

Where'd you find this? I can't seem to locate it.

[voyager9 3,434]

10 minutes ago, Xtors said:

Where'd you find this? I can't seem to locate it.

Footnote on page 2 of the order @bennj posted above.  

[Xtors 333]

2 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Footnote on page 2 of the order @bennj posted above.  

Duh! Thanks.

[rschmidty6 6]

It might be a blessing in disguise.  Now it can be appealed to the Supreme Court.  Also, we can still carry in our cars which is the big one affecting all of us.

[TuscanRaider 8]

17 minutes ago, rschmidty6 said:

It might be a blessing in disguise.  Now it can be appealed to the Supreme Court.  Also, we can still carry in our cars which is the big one affecting all of us.

Also private property is still allowed….Costco, the mall, Lowe’s, ShopRite, etc.  Most daily trips are still protected. 

[rschmidty6 6]

My disclaimer, I am a BIG proponant of Constitutional Carry, but this is "Jersey" of course.  They should never criminalize the law abiding citizen.

It is a legal process - 2 steps forward, and 1 back.  Future will be 3 more steps forward.

We are all Americans living in NJ.

[b47356 21]

33 minutes ago, rschmidty6 said:

It might be a blessing in disguise.  Now it can be appealed to the Supreme Court.  Also, we can still carry in our cars which is the big one affecting all of us.

SCOTUS isn't going to touch anything until the case actually gets a ruling. And since this case in the 3rd is just about the injunction ruling out of district court, that means we now get to sit through this case in the 3rd, the related appeal from the plaintiffs recently appealed..

Someday, months from now, the case will be thrown back on Bumb's desk with orders from the 3rd circuit regarding the injunction appeals. Then things finally continue in district court - and someday - we get a ruling from Bumb (if she doesn't retire first). Then one or both parties appeal the ruling to the 3rd circuit. Maybe in 5 years or so we find out where we are allowed to carry.

Or maybe longer (see the mag ban case)

"The process is the punishment"

[Vdep217 63]

22 minutes ago, b47356 said:

SCOTUS isn't going to touch anything until the case actually gets a ruling. And since this case in the 3rd is just about the injunction ruling out of district court, that means we now get to sit through this case in the 3rd, the related appeal from the plaintiffs recently appealed..

Someday, months from now, the case will be thrown back on Bumb's desk with orders from the 3rd circuit regarding the injunction appeals. Then things finally continue in district court - and someday - we get a ruling from Bumb (if she doesn't retire first). Then one or both parties appeal the ruling to the 3rd circuit. Maybe in 5 years or so we find out where we are allowed to carry.

Or maybe longer (see the mag ban case)

"The process is the punishment"

There was time limits imposed if I'm not mistaken

[bennj 215]

With the available 3rd circuit judges who would've thunk the anti-gunners would get the majority huh? What a coincidence. Don't want to be a pessimist, but we lost a lot of ground, hopefully we get some back before I'm too old to pull a trigger.