NJ LAWMAKERS ANNOUNCE PLANS TO DESTROY RIGHT TO CARRY

[YankeeSC 1,204]

The Second Amendment:

Quote

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So there are 2 distinct groups called out here (the comma matters):

1. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,
2. the right of the people to keep and bear arms

The training laws/rules in question have nothing to do with group 1, they are all about group 2 as they pertain to what requirements "the people" have to adhere to in order to bear arms. This has nothing to do with militias. 

Then the final clause comes in: "shall not be infringed".  For our purposes in discussing the NJ CWP requirements:

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is all that matters.

[xXxplosive 824]

If you saw the display years back at the Bridgewater library some of the artifacts that were on display from the Pluckemin Encampment the militia had smoothbores / their own and  mostly cartridges filled with shot....and I was amazed to see the many different sizes...........not .58cal ball as issued to the Continentals.........

[Displaced Texan 11,750]

1 hour ago, xXxplosive said:

How do you know that, were you there.....your just assuming that's what it meant....regulated, last time I looked up the word had many meanings......it actually has nothing to do with arms training but behavior towards commanding officers by enlisted men....see 1779.

Here’s a good article on the meaning of ‘well regulated’ in reference to the 2A. 
 

https://bearingarms.com/bobowens-bearingarms/2014/06/24/well-regulated-n19250

[xXxplosive 824]

Most militias of the period had no rifles and fired cartridges of mostly shot.....another opinion op-ed.....Mr. Shultz needs to be reminded of that..or didn't he know.......again, it's only his opinion and I find it flawed....."Riflemen"....really.  I can also say as I was told by those who worked on the dig.. the the ball ammunition found in the fire places were in the Officer's huts....the ball found was the remains of the broken cartridges used to ignite the fires with their flint and steel......buck shot in the militia quarters as well......training.....unlikely much if any.

 

[Walkinguf61 40]

32 minutes ago, xXxplosive said:

was Scilia there too..................all conjecture that most have adopted because we were told to do so, just like everything else we're told to do............read minutes 1779....the only so called "crack shots" were Morgan's Rifle Co. and they didn't do much in the way of training.......they were natural hunters and farmers that brought meat to the dinner table to feed their families before enlisting.

Scalia went into it. Just your own words” they didn’t do much training “ ie meaning they did some. And what was the standard to join the unit if any? Maybe just the ability to shoot and load a rifle . Scalia went into some of it as well as the court cases of historical text and tradition. There are records.

[xXxplosive 824]

First off one had to own his own rifle.............not many.....have an original signed document in my collection " Last Will & ....of Andrew Carmer from Bridgewater NJ at his time of death, who had " one musket and cartridge box".....he was with the Somerset Co. Militia listed on their Muster Roll......yup, buckshot my friend.

Y'all been duped for years by mostly people who know nothing.......the Battles of Princeton and Bound Brook along the Raritan, the air must have been heavily laden with Shot from the militia cos.....omo.

[Tunaman 549]

All that "draw and fire" bullshit in the qual is for cops only...as we cant even carry OWB like they can.  So unless they are going to make cops draw from the concealed position they can pound salt.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

1 hour ago, Walkinguf61 said:

What if you are in a wheelchair? 

I know that there are other battles to be fought, but hopefully someone will sue over this.

[DAHL 59]

3 hours ago, Tunaman said:

All that "draw and fire" bullshit in the qual is for cops only...as we cant even carry OWB like they can.  So unless they are going to make cops draw from the concealed position they can pound salt.

What until you see the new training requirements imposed on honest gun owners who want to carry on 7/1. . They will be very very tough and will include long hours of classroom training, timed fir, draw from holster requirements and distances back to 25 yds. .

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Mr. Stu, with no disrespect intended to you, a well-respected poster, this entire page and a half of angst over new training requirements is based on third party hearsay? 

[1LtCAP 4,264]

7 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

training could be marching drills on the field, taking orders and behavior of enlisted men towards their commanding officers (see 1779).......not something you just assumed.

 

and this.......

 

this was the course of fire i shot...but the paperwork is labeled as hqc2

[45Doll 5,877]

6 hours ago, YankeeSC said:

The Second Amendment:

So there are 2 distinct groups called out here (the comma matters):

1. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,
2. the right of the people to keep and bear arms

The training laws/rules in question have nothing to do with group 1, they are all about group 2 as they pertain to what requirements "the people" have to adhere to in order to bear arms. This has nothing to do with militias. 

Then the final clause comes in: "shall not be infringed".  For our purposes in discussing the NJ CWP requirements:

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is all that matters.

I agree with your analysis completely. However, the left (and especially leftist judges) don't care about grammar or the definition of words. Inside and outside the 'law', language for them is a malleable tool, bent as they desire to serve their purpose. Although it might persuade some rational minded citizens, this argument is of no use opposing leftist attempts to disarm us.

Regardless of that, and regardless of whatever 'training requirements' New Jermany deigns to impose on us, isn't it in our best interest to be the best regulated militia we can be? All the agencies of the Deep State are arming up and training hard to impose their will on us if and when necessary. With guns.

If this were a Constitutional Carry state, and I intended to carry, I would train as hard as possible. I figure if called into action I'm going to lose a significant percentage of my skill in the heat of the moment.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

6 hours ago, Walkinguf61 said:

It meant that too. I am basing my opinion from Scilica’s opinion of the meaning of the words from watching many interviews with him on the subject.

Were the militia as it was defined then required to gather for training ? The answer is yes. 
The type of training isn’t limited to what they did back then . Muskets weren’t marksmanship weapons. 
 

As long as the training maximum is to minimum that of an armed agent of the state directly related to that firearm and realistic purpose, what’s the issue? I have to pass the minimum police firearm standard each year. An 80 year old retired cop was next to me on the firing line ( it’s NY standards) and we both passed. The only issue I have with the NJ standard is the kneeling or standing requirement. What if you are in a wheelchair? 

so you're ok with the entity that doesn't want anyone outside the "club" to be allowed to carry setting the standards that we have to pass?

[RadioGunner 218]

I just did a Maryland class for a group, and it's a PITA. 16 hours, and I covered a lot beyond the required. And yes I did 16 hours. I suspect that's where NJ will go.

[Walkinguf61 40]

1 hour ago, RadioGunner said:

I just did a Maryland class for a group, and it's a PITA. 16 hours, and I covered a lot beyond the required. And yes I did 16 hours. I suspect that's where NJ will go.

New York is already there. People who had their permits for decades have to take the 16 hour course.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

8 hours ago, Walkinguf61 said:

New York is already there. People who had their permits for decades have to take the 16 hour course.

i thought that was part of the ny crap that was put on hold?

[Walkinguf61 40]

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

i thought that was part of the ny crap that was put on hold?

In NYC, to renew ( technically apply again) a carry permit, the 16 hour class is required with some exceptions.

[High Exposure 5,664]

20 hours ago, Tunaman said:

All that "draw and fire" bullshit in the qual is for cops only...as we cant even carry OWB like they can.  So unless they are going to make cops draw from the concealed position they can pound salt.

Point of order: Cops have to qualify with their off duty guns and holsters (read: concealed carry) as well as their duty guns. The time and accuracy standards do not change.

Therefore - Cops are successfully completing HQC1 and HQC2 from concealment 2x a year.

[xXxplosive 824]

we're not cops.........................

[GRIZ 3,369]

22 hours ago, Tunaman said:

All that "draw and fire" bullshit in the qual is for cops only...as we cant even carry OWB like they can.  So unless they are going to make cops draw from the concealed position they can pound salt.

I carry OWB most times.  You have a shirt or jacket covering it.

 

[GRIZ 3,369]

22 minutes ago, xXxplosive said:

we're not cops.........................

That's not the point.  The statement said cops are not required to draw from concealment. Truth is, they are.

[High Exposure 5,664]

5 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

we're not cops.........................

Never said you were.

5 hours ago, GRIZ said:

That's not the point.  The statement said cops are not required to draw from concealment. Truth is, they are.

10000% Thank you. 
 

Make no mistake, I do not agree with mandated training as a requirement to exercise a right - but I wish everyone would take their rights seriously and prepare themselves, across the range of all personal rights.

Regarding the 2A I wish that, while it should not be required, anyone who does decide to carry a firearm should be self-aware enough to come to the realization that:

1) Carrying a firearm is an enormous social and personal responsibility
2) They are accepting a duty to themselves and others to be an asset to society, not of a liability
3) Their action and related skill/ability will reflect on all who carry guns
4) Your abilities translate to literal “life or death” consequences
5) You will be judged on both your physical abilities as well as your decision making process by the courts, by society, and by your peers - for all time
6) Not aspire to mediocrity
and
7) Self-realize the importance to train with their chosen firearm to level of basic proficiency

[brucin 923]

16 hours ago, Walkinguf61 said:

New York is already there. People who had their permits for decades have to take the 16 hour course.

Only the 5 boroughs, Nassau and Rockland counties. Everywhere else in the state does not.

[45Doll 5,877]

19 hours ago, 45Doll said:

All the agencies of the Deep State are arming up and training hard to impose their will on us if and when necessary. With guns.

To my point. Also posted in a stand-alone thread.

With vast new resources, the IRS is flexing its muscles - American Thinker

[Walkinguf61 40]

I dont know why guys are fretting about the holster draw. You can wear an OWB belt holster for the qualification. Cops requalification for service or off duty does not dictate what holster the cop can carry in the future. Many cops carry a back up/off duty on their vest holsters while on duty. But they do not qualify from it.. The type of holster isn’t even recorded to my knowledge even in NJ on the requal sheet. But I wasn’t an NJ cop so correct me if I am wrong but I haven’t seen or read anything that would tell me otherwise.

[High Exposure 5,664]

43 minutes ago, Walkinguf61 said:

I dont know why guys are fretting about the holster draw. You can wear an OWB belt holster for the qualification. Cops requalification for service or off duty does not dictate what holster the cop can carry in the future. Many cops carry a back up/off duty on their vest holsters while on duty. But they do not qualify from it.. The type of holster isn’t even recorded to my knowledge even in NJ on the requal sheet. But I wasn’t an NJ cop so correct me if I am wrong but I haven’t seen or read anything that would tell me otherwise.

Consider yourself corrected.

[Walkinguf61 40]

6 hours ago, brucin said:

Only the 5 boroughs, Nassau and Rockland counties. Everywhere else in the state does not.

It is required for a new permit, not a renewal. NYC and the other counties mentioned don’t do renewals but technically a new permit each time 

52 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Consider yourself corrected.

Can you show me a link that the officer can’t change holsters without doing a requal? 
 

I just read this whole thing.
https://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/firearms2001.pdf

There is nothing in it about holsters other than using an agency/department approved holster WHEN QUALIFYING. You can switch holsters . And if your off duty is your service gun or nearly identical— you don’t have to qualify with it if your department agrees. 

[1LtCAP 4,264]

1 hour ago, Walkinguf61 said:

I dont know why guys are fretting about the holster draw. You can wear an OWB belt holster for the qualification. Cops requalification for service or off duty does not dictate what holster the cop can carry in the future. Many cops carry a back up/off duty on their vest holsters while on duty. But they do not qualify from it.. The type of holster isn’t even recorded to my knowledge even in NJ on the requal sheet. But I wasn’t an NJ cop so correct me if I am wrong but I haven’t seen or read anything that would tell me otherwise.

i personally am not fretting holster draw. i am fretting the moving of the goal posts. and i am fretting the fact that so many are over-looking that.

[Walkinguf61 40]

   1 hour ago,  High Exposure said: 

   21 minutes ago,  1LtCAP said: 

i personally am not fretting holster draw. i am fretting the moving of the goal posts. and i am fretting the fact that so many are over-looking that.

I edited my post after you responded.

I read this whole thing . It doesn’t say anything about holsters except it has to department/agency approved to qualify from. It says nothing about having to use a IWB . Just the person should be dressed in accordance with their assignment. But that’s not a hard rule at all. Plainclothes jump between uniformed duties and plainclothes all the time with out requalification in between. And even then , a lot of departments let their officers carry in vest holsters and shoulder holsters but won’t let them qualify with them for range safety reasons — you flag the other shooters on the line when you draw.

If there are rules about off duty holsters it appears to be left to the individual departments, not on the HCQ1or2

 

https://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/firearms2001.pdf

[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, Walkinguf61 said:

I just read this whole thing.
https://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/firearms2001.pdf

There is nothing in it about holsters other than using an agency/department approved holster WHEN QUALIFYING. You can switch holsters . And if your off duty is your service gun or nearly identical— you don’t have to qualify with it if your department agrees. 

Okay you have to an agency approved holster when qualifying.  You can switch holsters but your agency will dictate what holsters you can switch to.

Whilst.the state says you don't have to qualify with your off duty gun I don't know of any agency that doesn't require you to qualify with your off duty and any firearm you use on duty.

The state requirements are interesting but the agency requirements can, and often are, more restricting.

I know of at least a couple of agencies that require their LEOS to carry a less than lethal weapon if they're carrying a gun off duty.  I even know agencies that require you to carry expandable baton and pepper spray if you're carrying off duty.

OT but 99.99% of the confrontations you might encounter will require less than lethal force.  If you're carrying a gun you should be carrying a ltl option.  If you see every confrontation as a nail you'll use the hammer.