NJ LAWMAKERS ANNOUNCE PLANS TO DESTROY RIGHT TO CARRY

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Appendix B

Permit to Carry Safe Handling and Proficiency Qualification (HQC2-modified)

1. Familiarization Requirements for Each Participant.

a. Demonstrate the safe handling of weapon.

b. Demonstrate proper loading and unloading techniques.

c. Demonstrate the techniques of proper physical stance.

d. Demonstrate the techniques of good marksmanship.

------

Define, please.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Page 18:

"*Per 2C:58-4 Permit to Carry Handguns, one permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof."

------

No need to qualify with more than one handgun then?  No striker vs. revolver debate?  Done deal?

[CMJeepster 2,778]

"*Any requirement for classroom instruction and target training shall not be required for a renewal applicant who completed the instruction and training when obtaining a permit to carry a handgun issued within the previous two years."

------

WTF is, "target training?"

This whole thing is a joke.  My family and friends in Pennsylvania laugh at me.  They don't go through any of this bullshit for initial or renewal.  The only blood in the streets are the gangbangers and thugs in the cities, not those residing in the real Pennsylvania.

  

[45Doll 5,877]

5 minutes ago, CMJeepster said:

This whole thing is a joke.  My family and friends in Pennsylvania laugh at me. 

Since we both have PA resident LTCFs, after arriving we usually go to a mirror in the house and laugh at ourselves hysterically while having our first drink.

[bad64chevelle 0]

11 minutes ago, CMJeepster said:

"*Any requirement for classroom instruction and target training shall not be required for a renewal applicant who completed the instruction and training when obtaining a permit to carry a handgun issued within the previous two years."

------

 

So if I’m reading that correctly , if we have a permit within the last two years , we DONT need to go through all this bs until we have to renew ? 

[xXxplosive 824]

They believe Firearms = Power and they want us powerless........has nothin' to do with self protection or the Constitution...omo.

[Fred2 367]

2 hours ago, Fawkesguy said:

"Interim" requirements/forms have been posted:

https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/PTC_use_of_force_and_Qual.pdf

https://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001Kl9N542raXHZSANWgcHyTX7r_Sl8m7VIIv4BuGpswLLbqAFdwgQq_EvOuREsaK8JKSTF-BftfcQmSPPIZbkVftnl1BQJHB5iKphYzvwNPrNAh4LAup2nIu_psEAVmHT4OC-p4DaUH5cDQ4FJgtmyHW_V2b_7bMQ2sr6rrNhDiWG3jTmWJTYqvEO7RxQZ7CD4emfjxtJhQQJsDMOg4t1JmA==&c=caJZhwep3B2prlHMzA28XY02-iROcOpG8w4A7-f52R7ixuNTXk_iuQ==&ch=vQwrHBFWAtcaqHAqX8_8QL35va2yV4FbcfSX1w5ohiCP7vwRoep9eA==

https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/sp-182_PTC_Safe_Handling_and_Proficiency_Certification.pdf

https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/sp-182a_PTC_Additional_Handguns_Intended_to_be_Carried.pdf

 

You know they are full of shit when they lie in the first sentence.

Introduction: Use of Force Training for Civilians
Unlike an active duty law enforcement officer, private citizens have no responsibilities to protect the public.

 

https://www.alternet.org/2022/06/supreme-court-cops-protect-individuals

[xXxplosive 824]

Hmmm......neither do LEO as per USSC....only to enforce the law....."to protect and serve" went out a while back.....omo

[Tunaman 549]

40 minutes ago, bad64chevelle said:

So if I’m reading that correctly , if we have a permit within the last two years , we DONT need to go through all this bs until we have to renew ? 

The way I read it is that if you have a permit that has been issued in the last 2 years and went through all the required steps you dont need classroom or training again for renewal.  Like not having to take the driving test again for renewing your drivers license.  Thats how I read it.

[Tunaman 549]

and what the hell is a .pptx document?   I dont have powerpoint and am not buying it just so i can comply. What idiot couldnt make it a .pdf so we can read it...

[JohnnyB 4,325]

1 hour ago, CMJeepster said:

Page 10:

"A. A person is justified in using force upon or toward a third party if the person 
1. reasonably believes 
2. force is immediately necessary
3. to prevent the other person from
    a. committing suicide
    b. inflicting serious bodily harm upon him or herself, or
    c. committing or consummating the commission of a crime involving or threatening bodily harm, damage to or loss of property or a breach of the peace

B. Deadly force is only justified if the person using force  1. reasonably believes  2. it is likely that the person he or she seeks to prevent from committing a crime  3. will endanger human life or inflict serious bodily harm upon another unless  4. the commission or the consummation of the crime is prevented; and  5. the use of deadly force presents no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons "

------

So if I read this right, I am to use deadly force to stop a person from killing or hurting themselves? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE IDIOTS?

[bad64chevelle 0]

1 minute ago, Tunaman said:

The way I read it is that if you have a permit that has been issued in the last 2 years and went through all the required steps you dont need classroom or training again for renewal.  Like not having to take the driving test again for renewing your drivers license.  Thats how I read it.

That’s how I read it also . I knew I would be cutting it close, just received my ptc two weeks ago , genuinely wasn’t looking to go through and pay for it all over again . I’ve seen one place saying people pre 12-22-22 don’t need to re qualify , which makes no sense . My qualifying was done exactly how the new qualifications are also.

[Tunaman 549]

We pay these cops salary.  They get to qualify for free...but we pay for it.  Why do we have to pay to qualify?.  The police should qualify us for free too.  It costs around 500 bucks now when all said and done.  That is some bullshit.

They are trying to make this so hard and expensive that people wont do it.  Vote them all out.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

1 hour ago, CMJeepster said:

Appendix B

Permit to Carry Safe Handling and Proficiency Qualification (HQC2-modified)

1. Familiarization Requirements for Each Participant.

a. Demonstrate the safe handling of weapon.

b. Demonstrate proper loading and unloading techniques.

c. Demonstrate the techniques of proper physical stance.

d. Demonstrate the techniques of good marksmanship.

------

Define, please.

actually c could use explanation too. sounds to me that they've left that open to be awfully subjective......

[1LtCAP 4,264]

52 minutes ago, xXxplosive said:

They believe Firearms = Power and they want us powerless........has nothin' to do with self protection or the Constitution...omo.

on point.

[brucin 923]

1 hour ago, CMJeepster said:

"*Any requirement for classroom instruction and target training shall not be required for a renewal applicant who completed the instruction and training when obtaining a permit to carry a handgun issued within the previous two years."

Can someone steer me to which PDF the State released today where it says this?

[Tunaman 549]

19 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

So if I read this right, I am to use deadly force to stop a person from killing or hurting themselves? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE IDIOTS?

Yes.  Its says to KILL THEM before they KILL THEMSELVES!

[Tunaman 549]

4 minutes ago, brucin said:

Can someone steer me to which PDF the State released today where it says this?

https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/PTC_use_of_force_and_Qual.pdf  scroll down to the certification its on the bottom of page 18

[Fawkesguy 57]

21 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

..........They are trying to make this so hard and expensive that people wont do it.  Vote them all out.

Well, sure.  Just like all of NJ's gun laws.  We need to beg the state for permission to even purchase a firearm.  That's why such a small percentage of people in this state own firearms.  It is absolutely by design.

[Tunaman 549]

Also,  that new form that lists all the handguns you intend to carry is bullshit .  My Chief of police when asked said there are no restrictions on this permit.  He already has a list of guns I own in his file from the purchase permits.  We need nothing more.

[xXxplosive 824]

where in the 2A does it say anything like this.......I'm ignorant.....tell me please.........omo....and how will folks be notified if they have to test again....we shot HQC1 which is more rounds than required.....so....do we get credit for 10.

[Fawkesguy 57]

1 minute ago, xXxplosive said:

where in the 2A does it say anything like this.......I'm ignorant.....tell me please.........omo.

Practically every section of NJ's firearms laws are in violation of the 2A.  I'd love to see the state try to provide "historical analogs" that existed at the time of the founding or of incorporation for all existing NJ gun laws.  

[brucin 923]

1 hour ago, Tunaman said:

https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/PTC_use_of_force_and_Qual.pdf  scroll down to the certification its on the bottom of page 18

Going to have to wait for the lawyers to clear that one up. An asterisk at the end of a form may not be legally binding. Don't get me wrong as I really do not want to pay for a holster draw class just to take a qualification I passed less than a year ago so I hope that anyone who already has a permit doesn't have to do any of this till renewal.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

1 hour ago, Tunaman said:

Yes.  Its says to KILL THEM before they KILL THEMSELVES!

Am I crazy or is that what it says?

 

[Cheflife15 455]

1 hour ago, brucin said:

Going to have to wait for the lawyers to clear that one up. An asterisk at the end of a form may not be legally binding. Don't get me wrong as I really do not want to pay for a holster draw class just to take a qualification I passed less than a year ago so I hope that anyone who already has a permit doesn't have to do any of this till renewal.

Gun for hire is saying anyone who wasn't issued a permit before 12/22/22 needs to complete the new stuff. 

Reddit is saying everyone post bruen needs to complete this. 

[Walkinguf61 40]

4 hours ago, Fred2 said:

 

You know they are full of shit when they lie in the first sentence.

Introduction: Use of Force Training for Civilians
Unlike an active duty law enforcement officer, private citizens have no responsibilities to protect the public.

 

https://www.alternet.org/2022/06/supreme-court-cops-protect-individuals

You aren’t really understanding the case and the fact pattern. The officers involved did not interact with the victim. In Wren , the person called the police but no one answered the door. The police officers never saw the victims or the perpetrators.  Certain fact patterns do set up a “special relationship “ where the officer/department can liable if they become a victim. 
For example 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurman_v._City_of_Torrington?wprov=sfti1

[Walkinguf61 40]

3 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

So if I read this right, I am to use deadly force to stop a person from killing or hurting themselves? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE IDIOTS?

Any shot even if not fatal, is considered deadly force. When the police sniper literally shot a gun out of the hands of someone who wanted to kill themselves, it was still considered the use of deadly force . So if you were shoot someone in the leg to prevent them from jumping off a cliff, it’s still deadly force . 

[Tunaman 549]

6 minutes ago, Walkinguf61 said:

Any shot even if not fatal, is considered deadly force. When the police sniper literally shot a gun out of the hands of someone who wanted to kill themselves, it was still considered the use of deadly force . So if you were shoot someone in the leg to prevent them from jumping off a cliff, it’s still deadly force . 

I would wave them goodbye and say have a nice trip before I even thought about using my gun and risking everything....

[1LtCAP 4,264]

39 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Gun for hire is saying anyone who wasn't issued a permit before 12/22/22 needs to complete the new stuff. 

Reddit is saying everyone post bruen needs to complete this. 

even if we completed pretty much what it says in their list??

[RadioGunner 218]

This is what the law actually says:

 

(2) A person who obtained a permit pursuant to this section prior to the first day of the seventh month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) and which permit is not scheduled to expire until at least one year following the enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) shall comply with the training requirement established pursuant to this subsection no later than the first day of the tenth month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.).

 

I think there can be two interpretations here. 

1. "Pursuant to this section" could mean only the police chief issued permits. This is likely where GFH's reasoning is from. 

2. If you interpret "Pursuant to this section" as including judge issued permits, and your permit has more than a year's validity, then yes, you will have to re-qualify and take the new training. 

 

I am leaning toward 2. due to the nuances in this wording:
"a permit pursuant to this section" vs "the training requirement established pursuant to this subsection." They seem to be talking about the entire section as to permits issued which included judge issued permits.

 

Ultimately though, the AG will have to clarify this, and undoubtedly there will (and should) be court challenges.

I will be taking the revised shooting course, just to be on the safe side.