Liberty Safe Gave Feds Access Code to Gun Safe During Raid on January 6 Protester

[45Doll 5,877]

Apparently the FBI had a search warrant, but not a court order. Plus some response from other manufacturers.

Liberty Safe Gives Feds Backdoor Access To Customer's Gun Safe (thefederalist.com)

More from AT, including Liberty's other brand names.

Liberty Safe is only too willing to work with the FBI - American Thinker

Edited September 7, 2023 by 45Doll
2nd link added.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

Liberty Safe is responding to the outrage and now allows safe owners to request expungement of access codes at Liberty:

[Xtors 333]

 

 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:07 AM, Mr.Stu said:

There is a big difference between giving the FBI unrestricted backdoor access to Apple's platform and complying with a lawfully issued warrant to access a single safe.

What would you have Liberty Safe do? Earn themselves a prosecution instead?

Ask for a subpoena, otherwise they have no legal obligation. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:52 AM, 124gr9mm said:

I was just using the ability of a teenager jailbreaking as an example that technology like iPhones are historically not bullet proof.

I find it beyond reason to believe that Apple did/does not have the ability to get into ANY iPhone they want.  I cannot prove that, but I've worked with enough people in technology roles to know that people who create technology always have ways to back-door their way in.

I'll create another thread if you'd like to debate the Apple scenario (or we can PM).

As for Liberty they will not be getting any of my business.

Jailbreaking a phone is not the same thing as accessing its stored contents.  Jailbreaking still requires prior access to the phone. 

 

He most likely was wiping the phones and reinstalling a jailbroken OS system. 

 

Very, very different. 

 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

3 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

was thinking the same thing.....

too late. damage is done. they could give me one of their safes for free, and i'd list it for sale

I've been looking for a safe for a month now. I reeeaaallly loved the Colonial 50, had a decent price and I was going to buy it literally the day this shit hit the fan because they are offering steep discounts on installation.. 

With a few developments now and the company exexposed... nope!! No way.. 

[JeepGunner 109]

What's a great safe to go with other than Tyranny/Liberty?

I'm looking for burglar proof, fireproof, and true 50 gun capacity. Will store significant cash and gold.

Also, how much should this run me with installation?

Thanks guys

 

 

 

[Scorpio64 5,156]

15 minutes ago, JeepGunner said:

What's a great safe to go with other than Tyranny/Liberty?

As far as safes go, Liberty is still a very good piece of gear.  You can always buy a used safe (I suspect at a deep DEEP discount now) and have a trusted locksmith change the combo.  Over on another forum, a couple LS owners said they changed the combo themselves, and a few others called a locksmith to change the combo.

BTW, here's why Liberty Safe Co needs to be Budweiser'd.

 

 

[kc17 622]

I get it and agree with much of what is in the video. Many companies donate to both political parties also. Trump donated to Dems before he ran for office. I view these donations by companies as legal bribery / pay to play / scratch each others backs.  

Maybe Liberty donates to both sides, but that's not being shown, maybe they do only donate to the Left, I don't know. 

[45Doll 5,877]

1 hour ago, JeepGunner said:

What's a great safe to go with other than Tyranny/Liberty?

I'm looking for burglar proof, fireproof, and true 50 gun capacity. Will store significant cash and gold.

Also, how much should this run me with installation?

Thanks guys

Note that Liberty safes, like many others, are not true 'safes'. Their classification is RSC - Residential Security Container. You can tell that immediately from the door construction.

This web site has a ton of info about safes, and I suggest you browse it thoroughly. On this page (and elsewhere) he has some specific comments about Liberty safes:

Best Gun Safes by Category - Gun Safe Reviews Guy

And as I always counsel, any safe without a monitored alarm system is an insecure setup. If you grant someone enough time, any RSC or safe can be breached.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

6 hours ago, kc17 said:

I get it and agree with much of what is in the video. Many companies donate to both political parties also. Trump donated to Dems before he ran for office. I view these donations by companies as legal bribery / pay to play / scratch each others backs.  

Maybe Liberty donates to both sides, but that's not being shown, maybe they do only donate to the Left, I don't know. 

i think trump WAS a dem up till either just before obamas term, or sometime during.

[Jon K 32]

So, the company name itself, is false advertising is it not?

[45Doll 5,877]

Anti-2A Company Gave Nearly Half a Million Dollars to Gun-Control Happy Democrats (townhall.com)

Guess who?

[1LtCAP 4,264]

informative video.

 

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

A good short on Third Party privacy issue, esp relevant in this case.

 

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:49 PM, 1LtCAP said:

informative video.

Agreed.

Esp the  professional locksmith/safe tech's final line of the video:

SECURITY IS JUST AN ILLUSION

[45Doll 5,877]

33 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

SECURITY IS JUST AN ILLUSION

Fixed that for you. It's my member title. But thanks for the emphasis.

I thought I originally quoted that from "Rollover", but apparently it's not a quote. It's my version of what was implied.

No copyright though. LOL

[Scorpio64 5,156]

4 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

SECURITY IS JUST AN ILLUSION

I do not believe security is an illusion.  Perhaps total security, being 100% protected is an illusion.  To say security is an illusion would mean there is no point in doing anything to protect one's self.  That's just plain silly.  Having fences, safes and locks on doors is secure to a degree.  Having 15' concrete walls, armed guards and a vault room is secure to a much higher degree.  Then there is Ft Knox security, literally the gold standard. 

With enough force, anything can get broken into, the trick is to have a level of security commensurate to the anticipated threat level.  If a would be bad guy thinks they can get caught or killed, they generally move on to another target.  Think of the least secure house on the block as the slowest gazelle.  It will get eaten first.

 

[45Doll 5,877]

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

the trick is to have a level of security commensurate to the anticipated threat level.

The trick is to have a level of force commensurate to overcome the anticipated level of security.

It works both ways.

BTW, I agree with you that 'security' is a continuum. It's just that in real life I've never heard anyone attach a threat level to their personal notion of how secure they are, let alone perform an analysis. 90% think just because nothing's happened to them (yet), they're 'secure'. Their illusions are sustained.

IMO, this is why a majority of the population has no clue what a threat The Party and The Government have become to their personal security, and their freedom. They just can't imagine the 20 vehicle SWAT team rolling up to their house at 5 AM.

That only happens to other people.

[Displaced Texan 11,750]

6 hours ago, 45Doll said:

The trick is to have a level of force commensurate to overcome the anticipated level of security.

It works both ways.

BTW, I agree with you that 'security' is a continuum. It's just that in real life I've never heard anyone attach a threat level to their personal notion of how secure they are, let alone perform an analysis. 90% think just because nothing's happened to them (yet), they're 'secure'. Their illusions are sustained.

IMO, this is why a majority of the population has no clue what a threat The Party and The Government have become to their personal security, and their freedom. They just can't imagine the 20 vehicle SWAT team rolling up to their house at 5 AM.

That only happens to other people.

Nailed it. 

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:04 AM, 45Doll said:

By the way, my Zanotti Armor safe has a classic tumbler lock with key, and they throw away the combination after shipment.

I know the feds have a blow torch, but they wouldn't get any help from Zanotti.

Problem is that you have only Zanotti's word that they securely dispose of the combination after shipment. Now maybe you have other reasons to believe that they keep their word, and I hope htat is so, but absent that, I don't know if I would assume that they do as they claim. Integrity in business seems to be fast disappearing, and government over-regulation reduces competition and, along with it, the incentive to take good care of the customer to avoid losing business to a competitor (because that regulation regime thins out those competitors that do not do as the government wishes).

EDITED TO ADD: That goes double for Liberty's newfound concern for their customers' rights.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

21 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

I do not believe security is an illusion.  Perhaps total security, being 100% protected is an illusion.  To say security is an illusion would mean there is no point in doing anything to protect one's self.  That's just plain silly.  Having fences, safes and locks on doors is secure to a degree.  Having 15' concrete walls, armed guards and a vault room is secure to a much higher degree.  Then there is Ft Knox security, literally the gold standard. 

With enough force, anything can get broken into, the trick is to have a level of security commensurate to the anticipated threat level.  If a would be bad guy thinks they can get caught or killed, they generally move on to another target.  Think of the least secure house on the block as the slowest gazelle.  It will get eaten first.

 

That is true. There is also a second factor, and that is the damage antricipated if a particular aspect of security is compromised. That is distinct from threat level, which as you have used it, is the probabiltiy of compromise. In some domains, the two factors can actually be approximately expressed as a formula. It is similar to actuarial computation in the insurance industry.

[45Doll 5,877]

Given some of the skepticism I read, I decided to contact Zanotti Armor and confirm a few things. So I emailed them last night.

This morning at 9 my phone rang. It was Travis at Zanotti. I won't try to recreate the conversation. Suffice to say that my confidence in their business and their safes is confirmed. 

Here are the major points we covered.

• Electronic locks are really the crux of the Liberty issue, because of the existence of 'back door' combinations that can be revealed by a manufacturer or vendor. (This can be true for any safe with an electronic lock.) Tumbler locks have one and only one combination. And once purchased there's nothing stopping the owners from changing the combination, either doing it themselves or hiring a locksmith. Travis and I discussed how to do this. Zanotti supplies this information and the necessary change key on request.
• When I purchased my safe in 2018 the policy was to not record the lock combinations. However that policy was modified. They now retain the combinations for a fixed period. Why? They've had instances where customers died, and did not leave the combination to the appropriate people. So with presentation of proper documentation and authority they could help heirs with that problem. (My records are already gone.) Said customer records are kept in a secure location. They are not available to general staff.
• Upon specific customer request, they will destroy a customer's record.
• After the Liberty story broke, Zanotti contacted an attorney to confirm what is legally required to force them to reveal a customer's combination, if they have it. The requirement in Iowa is a specific court order. A simple search warrant won't do it. Their policy shown below will be posted on their website.
• Zanotti is a privately owned family business and they are sturdy Second Amendment supporters.

Needless to say Zanotti's business has picked up! I will continue to recommend them and their products, if their products are a good fit for someone's purpose. They are not 'cheap'. But you get what you pay for. And as a customer since 2018 I know Zanotti stands behind them.

The current Zanotti policy:

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 9/7/2023 at 7:11 AM, voyager9 said:

Certainly their original policy was concerning but we should give them some credit for fixing it.  Even if it’s only due to the severe backlash, the end result is a better policy and more customer control.  That’s a good thing.  

They didn't "fix" shit. In this day and age, words are the cheapest commodity on the planet. At such time as there are multiple credible reports that similar situations have occured, and in each case Liberty demanded a subpeona, and refused to provide the code without one, then you would be justified in lauding them for fixing the problem. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen. Liberty might not even get the opportunity. There appears to be no lack of competition in the gun safe market, and a well-earned gun owner boycott could probably take them under in short order. In that event, I wonder if they would market the codes as assets... 

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

On 9/14/2023 at 5:19 PM, 45Doll said:

Given some of the skepticism I read, I decided to contact Zanotti Armor and confirm a few things. So I emailed them last night.

This morning at 9 my phone rang. It was Travis at Zanotti. I won't try to recreate the conversation. Suffice to say that my confidence in their business and their safes is confirmed. 

Here are the major points we covered.

• Electronic locks are really the crux of the Liberty issue, because of the existence of 'back door' combinations that can be revealed by a manufacturer or vendor. (This can be true for any safe with an electronic lock.) Tumbler locks have one and only one combination. And once purchased there's nothing stopping the owners from changing the combination, either doing it themselves or hiring a locksmith. Travis and I discussed how to do this. Zanotti supplies this information and the necessary change key on request.
• When I purchased my safe in 2018 the policy was to not record the lock combinations. However that policy was modified. They now retain the combinations for a fixed period. Why? They've had instances where customers died, and did not leave the combination to the appropriate people. So with presentation of proper documentation and authority they could help heirs with that problem. (My records are already gone.) Said customer records are kept in a secure location. They are not available to general staff.
• Upon specific customer request, they will destroy a customer's record.
• After the Liberty story broke, Zanotti contacted an attorney to confirm what is legally required to force them to reveal a customer's combination, if they have it. The requirement in Iowa is a specific court order. A simple search warrant won't do it. Their policy shown below will be posted on their website.
• Zanotti is a privately owned family business and they are sturdy Second Amendment supporters.

Needless to say Zanotti's business has picked up! I will continue to recommend them and their products, if their products are a good fit for someone's purpose. They are not 'cheap'. But you get what you pay for. And as a customer since 2018 I know Zanotti stands behind them.

The current Zanotti policy:

Good to know. If I needed complete assurance that only I could access the safe, I would change the combination myself, but the assurances you received are VERY good, and probably the best that can be expected from any business.

[45Doll 5,877]

2 hours ago, Grima Squeakersen said:

If I needed complete assurance that only I could access the safe, I would change the combination myself,

That's possible with the change key and instructions. Travis did point out that those who do that need to confirm the combination they think they set does in fact work, and test it a couple of times BEFORE they close the door!

When I got my safe I made sure to do just that. The door was shipped with the lock mechanism open. Even though I knew what the combination was supposed to be, I'd never operated a classic tumbler lock. Took me a couple of tries to get the movement down pat.

Unfortunately some of Zanotti's customers forgot that little detail.