Seen Today at a local Police Department...

[Guest megaman]

Looks like some towns are up to their old tricks again!!!

 

We just went through this NJ, thought this was clear?

The sign at the bottom of this post was posted prominently infront of where they have the paperwork for the pistol permits.

Right in front of the average Joe...to discourage gun ownership....

 

Lets break this down as I see it and my experience today....

 

I was applying for 4 permits. I really dont care what the sign says, the law is the law.

 

So I tell the nice lady I am here for 4 permits. She says no problem, and calls the detective to tell him I am coming up...

 

I go up. The detctive asks me "what I want the guns for". I pause and shift in my seat, and tell him...'I have a problem with that question, its like asking me why I vote...'

He smirks and gets a tone and says 'Are you a collector, a competitive shooter, a cop? I just need to know' I say "I have a problem with that question because its invasive, I am not going to ask you what you had for dinner last night...its not my business, and its your right to eat what you want...'

He shakes his head, signs the 'permission slip' for me to begin to fill out my paperwork downstairs...As he is filling it out, he is giving me the speech about how its 'not a carry permit' and gun has to be 'unloaded cased in the car', etc... I told him that I am aware of the restrictions and I abide by the law.

 

Now, back to the picture....

1) There is this sign up, and nobody says anything to me about applying for 4 permits...

2) How many average Joe's have been limited by that sign? How many people came in and only put for 1 because of the sign, but wanted to apply for multiple permits?

3) NJ is really corrupt.

How many lawsuits do these guys want?

NJ's system is going to fall soon because I know a few smart lawyers are getting itchy and the NRA is being very quiet.

They have not abandoned NJ, we are ripe for change here folks...hang on and have faith, keep hammering away at the state prohibitions, because they are going to fall very quickly. NJ's whole system of firearms permitting will not pass constituional muster.

NJ will try to position that by offering one gun a month, they are allowing citizens to purchase firearms...the court may not have an issue with one gun a month, but they will have an issue with our permitting and carry system...

The fact that I have to be interviewed by a senior officer is up for question as well as you have no obligation to tell them anything, and they cant 'check you out' just to see who you are to determine if you are 'fit' to buy a gun. The whole system of ownership in NJ is one of asking the police if you can get a gun. They can tell you to 'get the hell out of here' and you may say nothing about it, or you can open your mouth and deny the monopoly on what is your right....now lets see how long these take...

My point here is that: Firearms transactions happen at a gun store, not the police station.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Call up the NJSP and tell them about the sign - many PD's have mistaken the OGAM law as being only allowed to apply for 1 permit at a time.

[FFDP82 4]

Thank you for standing up to them. I think you did great. If only the people on here drooling over $500 CCW had your attitude instead!

[Guest megaman]

Thank you for standing up to them. I think you did great. If only the people on here drooling over $500 CCW had your attitude instead!

 

 

Sadly I would pay the $500...LOL!!!!

I could quote an old NWA song here, but it would not really be fitting....

[ronhonda 86]

"Express yourself"

[Guest megaman]

"Express yourself"

[/qu

gurrrr

[bbk 188]

This is a good topic, as it serves to remind the community that sometimes your respective police departments might not have the correct policies in effect.

 

However, I won't let this become a cop-bashing thread. My only warning.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

It's funny how i hear horror stories from some PD's. And mine has been such a great PD to work with it is kinda confusing.... My PD just gave me the paper work and said u can apply for as many permits as you want, and gave me the basics for why i may be denied a permit, domestic violence and everything. When i dropped off the paper work the Lt. wasnt interested in anything but signing it and having me pay the money for the permits. And when i picked up the permits 3 weeks after my fingerprinting, the officer and i had a bout a 20min conversation on gun laws and how to avoid getting into a sticky situation. Now mind you i live in a very wealthy area, where the police respond to more domestic violence crimes then anything, maybe a once a year bank robbery takes the cake. So i was very surprised they were so willing to help a 24 year old get permits for a pistol, in a town where nothing really happens. However, we get a decent amount of home robberies, although 99% of them are when the home owners are away.

Now my friend, who lives a town over, which boarders Paterson, has been jumping through hoops to get his FID and permits, he still hasn't received them 3 months now. You would think they would be willing to help in high crime areas, and not so much in the low crime areas, but it seems to be the exact opposite.

[robot_hell 72]

My PD was slow with the initial FID and permit and is now ignoring my email inquiries about availability to process additional permits. It's definitely strange that immediately after picking up my FID, suddenly there is only one person available to process permits and I must submit it directly to him.

[Sigman 41]

Megaman - nice job!

 

I'm glad I don't go through that at my PD. Everything goes through the secretary without questions.

[unclenunzie 3]

It's funny how i hear horror stories from some PD's. And mine has been such a great PD to work with it is kinda confusing.... My PD just gave me the paper work and said u can apply for as many permits as you want, and gave me the basics for why i may be denied a permit, domestic violence and everything. When i dropped off the paper work the Lt. wasnt interested in anything but signing it and having me pay the money for the permits. And when i picked up the permits 3 weeks after my fingerprinting, the officer and i had a bout a 20min conversation on gun laws and how to avoid getting into a sticky situation. Now mind you i live in a very wealthy area, where the police respond to more domestic violence crimes then anything, maybe a once a year bank robbery takes the cake. So i was very surprised they were so willing to help a 24 year old get permits for a pistol, in a town where nothing really happens. However, we get a decent amount of home robberies, although 99% of them are when the home owners are away.

Now my friend, who lives a town over, which boarders Paterson, has been jumping through hoops to get his FID and permits, he still hasn't received them 3 months now. You would think they would be willing to help in high crime areas, and not so much in the low crime areas, but it seems to be the exact opposite.

 

So many observations to make, many or all of which have been discussed in other threads, but I'll just comment:

 

The lack of consistency in permitting procedure across the state is out of control. Misinformation, not necessarily intentionally, being presented as factual or based on statute or case law. When in fact, it's a misinterpretation of what a town PD's role is in the process, and indicates a lack of leadership and direction. I place this fault squarely at the feet of the attorney general, the top law-enforcement officer in the state, for not providing, distributing, or enforcing uniform processes. If I were the AG, I'd be ashamed.

 

As far as individual police officers doing the processing, I cannot fault them for doing their best as they see it. But that's the problem, they have no guidance, or insufficient guidance, so it falls upon their possibly limited understating of the law. Yes, a professional LEO who is unsure should ask, but as in corporate workplaces I am familiar with, there can be consequences for opening up one's mouth.

 

Sucks all around, I guess.

[crackaloon 15]

I don't see the point in not answering the question. He has a log book similar to a receipt book that has a space to be filled. He wasn't asking to give you a hard time, and simply saying "target shooting" isn't infringing on your rights. As for the sign, I'd guess it's intentional. If the sign bothers you call the state police. Cops are used to having their questions answered, so why bother? When he pulls you over for speeding do you think he's going to remember your attitude or cut you a break? I have been let off on minor traffic offences when I give a reasonable answer for what I did wrong...expecially in my own town. Cutting off your nose to spite your face doesn't make sense.

[FFDP82 4]

redacted

[1563621 388]

I have to agree, An officer asking you what you are going to use 4 handguns for is not an absurd question. I have been collecting for years and still wait 4 months for a permit.

[Bob La 1]

It truly is amusing.

 

On the other side of the coin...My local PD is great with everything. Last Monday I went in for 10 permits...The lady then said to me, If you put your exemption paperwork in with the permits you can take everything home at once, and get it all done in one shot.

 

To me thats how it should be.

 

Thngs must have changed a lot for the better in Toms River.

My last pistol permit took almost six months in 2008, after a call asking about it I had it in a week.

A friend who applied a month after me got his in about the same time frame.

Glad to see things have improved.

[crackaloon 15]

No, you should not answer why, nor do you have to. What if you answer "target shooting" but end up using the gun for home defense? What if you put "target shooting" but get a .44 magnum, why do you need a .44 for target, can't you target with a .22?

 

Me personally, if asked, would reply: "All lawful purposes." in that, I can, might, and will, use it for whatever lawful activities I so choose, and that's the end of that!

I guess I just don't buy into conspiracy theory. I do think your answer is much better than refusing to answer.

[JSF01 13]

It truly is amusing.

 

On the other side of the coin...My local PD is great with everything. Last Monday I went in for 10 permits...The lady then said to me, If you put your exemption paperwork in with the permits you can take everything home at once, and get it all done in one shot.

 

To me thats how it should be.

No the way it should be is you walk into a gun shop with intention of buying targets and instead walking out with the pistol that caught your eye

[FFDP82 4]

redacted

[FFDP82 4]

I guess I just don't buy into conspiracy theory. I do think your answer is much better than refusing to answer.

 

Sorry I edited my post to add, it's not "conspiracy theory" sadly it is a cause for concern here in NJ. There was a man from Scotch Plains who stated "home defense" and was denied a permit because "there isn't a lot of violent crime in Scotch Plains"

[crackaloon 15]

Sorry I edited my post to add, it's not "conspiracy theory" sadly it is a cause for concern here in NJ. There was a man from Scotch Plains who stated "home defense" and was denied a permit because "there isn't a lot of violent crime in Scotch Plains"

Okay then....I live in Ocean County, I didn't realize how it could be up there.

[Maksim 1,504]

Sorry I edited my post to add, it's not "conspiracy theory" sadly it is a cause for concern here in NJ. There was a man from Scotch Plains who stated "home defense" and was denied a permit because "there isn't a lot of violent crime in Scotch Plains"

 

 

I dont get it? What is the whole mentality with F the police and the world is out to get you? If it is that horrible, and everyone is out to harm you, screw your wife, and take your money.... just jump off a bridge.

 

There is a difference between being right, and being effective. Sometimes being "right" is not effective and only does more harm than good.

 

ie... M1 Carbine thread.... yes... someone might of been "right", even when the FFL's warned against it and wanted to be "effective" Wanting to be right screwed everyone.

 

Much like when you are pulled over you do not want to be remembered, being a douchebag when dealing with the LEO is not only disrespectful, but asinine.

 

If I was asked what I needed x amount of permits for... I would answer. What do you have to hide? You want to buy firearms for target practice? Maybe the LEO was a fellow shooter and just wanted to shoot the sh*t with you? Your smart ass answer just made you a target and probably just placed your apps on the bottom of the pile of things to do.

 

Whatever happened to treating people with respect? Treat someone the way you want to be treated. end of story.

 

Open warning, any open rage or disrespectful remarks towards any LEO, on the forum or not... will be a swift permanent ban. They are fellow people who put their lives on the line to protect your right to a pity party, the least you can do is respect them. Anyone who is not ok with that, is not welcome here, nor a person with whom I would want to be associated.

[FFDP82 4]

If I was asked what I needed x amount of permits for... I would answer. What do you have to hide? You want to buy firearms for target practice? Maybe the LEO was a fellow shooter and just wanted to shoot the sh*t with you? Your smart a** answer just made you a target and probably just placed your apps on the bottom of the pile of things to do.

 

I don't have a vengeful mentality, no one is out to screw me, and the last thing I want to do is jump off a bridge. I hope to die of natural causes at age 107 in a mansion surrounded by beautiful young women.

 

I don't care what sorts of vengeful things you would do in retaliation for someone not wishing to have their privacy invaded. That just shows that you would also make for a biased and unprofessional officer. Like I said before, if the officer is a good guy, I'm sure he won't mind me stating "all lawful purposes" as I am an upstanding citizen with no criminal record or mental health history and his investigation will show that. If he's a fellow enthusiast, maybe he could recommend a good local range or what guns he likes/owns. But as for why I own guns "all lawful purposes" is a good answer and I'm not sure why you think that is "cop bashing" because it is not. I have seen people denied permits due to their state reason within months so why the heck would someone state a reason? Like I said, the guy in Scotch Plains was asked why, said HD, then was denied because "thee isn't a lot of crime here"

 

You calling me a cop basher is total bs because my relative is an NJ State Trooper murdered in the line of duty during a traffic stop. I am well aware of the sacrifices officers make, and I'm also well aware of what clowns some of them also are. Like everything you have good or bad. I have utmost respect for the good ones. Fortunately in my town the guy who does firearms is a great guy whom I have known since I was a child. But if he retired or something and the new guy asked questions like that, he'd get that same answer. "All lawful purposes" because, well, I am going to do lawful things with it. Target shooting, hunting, home defense, who knows? Maybe all. Maybe None. Maybe I will just buy it and stick it in a safe and let it collect dust for 50 years. Maybe I will buy the pistol, take it home, then chop it into teeny tiny little itsy bitsy pieces with an angle grinder, melt it all down and make a little metal brick to use as a paperweight? Who knows? None of his business.

 

As for it "not working" we saw how this line of reasoning worked just fine for Mr. Megaman today. I find it extremely funny that you single me out and call me "cop basher" when I'm simply echoing what Megaman said and you seem to have no problem with his post.

 

If you have a problem with that, just ban me now, I really don't care about who you want to associate with or not because they choose to exercise their fifth amendment right as equally as their second. Fact of the matter there is nothing "cop bashing" about answering "all lawful purposes" as it is a standard answer recommended by many lawyers and used very commonly on ATF form 1 and 4 as well where the question is asked what someone intends to use the firearm for.

[bbk 188]

Maksim's note at the end of his post wasn't in effect of you, FFDP82. In fact, it was in response/conjunction with what I had posted prior because someone else had posted something that I found to be offensive in that it was purely anti-LEO (with no justification, etc).

 

I don't understand where you're getting this notion that we thought you were being a cop-basher. If you had, we would've taken action with your posts already and/or warned you regarding it.

 

So, carry on as you will.

[nott 0]

Open warning, any open rage or disrespectful remarks towards any LEO, on the forum or not... will be a swift permanent ban. They are fellow people who put their lives on the line to protect your right to a pity party, the least you can do is respect them. Anyone who is not ok with that, is not welcome here, nor a person with whom I would want to be associated.

 

Just so that there is no confusion, are you making a singular exception for this particular line of work? Or is there a list? What do you construe as offensive remarks? Perhaps you may want to consider updating the forum rules, so that new members have an upfront understanding about the arbitrary boundaries of discourse on this board.

 

-

[Guest megaman]

This is a good topic, as it serves to remind the community that sometimes your respective police departments might not have the correct policies in effect.

 

However, I won't let this become a cop-bashing thread. My only warning.

 

 

I absoluetly agree...I dont want it to be percieved as cop bashing. I respect the job. But, unfortunately they are sometimes very against the laws they swore to uphold.

Let me point out that most cops dont agree with how tight it is when they see and meet law abiding citizens who are shooters.

They know we are good guys and would assist them in a minute.

 

As for the folks who said "you should have said something whats the big deal?"

I dont have a problem with a question about how I am going to 'use something'.

What I am talking about here is why do I need to answer the question about why I want to partake in my right.

The second amendment is the only right you have to a tangible item. A gun. Why do I need to answer that question? The whole arcane permitting system in NJ is very suspect and is out of step. The way CCW is classified is suspect. The way a 'gun' is defined in admin code is very tight. You are a criminal when you come out of the range and walk on a public street to your car, you technically are 'carrying' illegally. Dont play down the seriousness of the issues because you are afraid of being a target. A target gets aquired. A person who speaks up is let through with no further problems because they dont want a problem. We have remedy because it is a right. Its not a privilege to get a gun. DO NOT think I am saying anything about being irresponsible with your rights. If I choose to carry, I take that very seriously and respect it. Thats a serious thing. We are adults, we dont need permission slips. My great grandma escaped Russia with a gold coin because they came for her because she was a Jew. I am not saying this is the same thing, but if you acquiesce and just give in, well then you lost and are not part of the 3% who are willing to change something. By giving in and saying "all legal purposes' you are stating the obvious. It does not need saying. We are adults in a modern democracy with responsibilities for maintaining the health of our balance of power. I have my right to bear arms, of course I am going to use it responsibly!!!! WHAT THE HELL NJ?!?!?!

Look it up in US History...the 3%...

[bbk 188]

To criticize in a constructive manner for the greater benefit would be OK with me. This happens every day when the forum, as a whole and individuals, try to make sense of certain aspects of our NJ gun laws. Its done in a courteous and non-militant manner. There is a civility to it, and while not everyone is on the same page-- information is shared, whether those are facts or personal accounts.

 

However, simply saying you hate something for the sake of hating it; and everybody else should hate it because you hate it is not constructive. Its not even close to constructive.

 

Earlier the posts deleted were in reference to the NWA song that is simply hostile to LEOs. Was there anything constructive about your, Babaganoosh, post? No. It was simply insulting to me.

Your following rant again is pointless as it offers nothing constructive, but only is intended to be insulting. Your relevant, personal experiences with LEO is of no concern of mine, nor the communities.

 

As for civility, it is prudent to respect everyone-- not just LEO and other first responders. I've never advocated "bashing" on politicians, illegal immigrants, or zombies (well, physically bashing zombies :ph34r:). Posts that are simply typed in spite of a group of people is hateful, and that is not the direction or goals of this community (and will be handled accordingly).

 

This is going to be my only attempt at explaining why civility is important. If you don't agree with that, I'm sure there are other forums that can be accommodating.

 

Any other posts in response to mine will be deleted. If you have any questions pertaining to my post, PM me personally. Thanks.

 

Otherwise, lets get back on topic.

[crackaloon 15]

In any event...

The point of fact is that your average cop doesn't want to stand around debating law enforcement theory, practice, or various social philosophy. They ask the questions they are trained to ask and expect answers. When they get non-standard answers you're seen as a non-standard individual. In the majority of situations where an officer must keep himself or others safe this line of thinking is helpful. If you keep in mind that they are programmed to respond a specific way to confrontation for a good reason it's easier to swallow answering with a pleasant tone and with helpful information.

ie: Q. "Do you have any drugs or weapons in the vehicle."

A1. "No sir" or "Yes sir in the trunk and I have an FID"

A2. "Why are you asking me?" <-- you're not going to get a good reaction.

Believe me when I say that I've had problems with individual officers, BUT, looking back I can see how most of these situations could have been avoided.

If I walked into my local PD and saw that same sign I would know it's incorrect, but I honestly wouldn't expect to get anywhere argueing that point locally because someone ordered someone to put that sign there.

As for answering the question of how I intend to use a weapon, I thought target practice would be good enough (and has been). I may just opt for "legal purposes" in the future because I try to avoid situations where it's unlikely I'll come out ahead.

[Guest megaman]

In any event...

The point of fact is that your average cop doesn't want to stand around debating law enforcement theory, practice, or various social philosophy. They ask the questions they are trained to ask and expect answers. When they get non-standard answers you're seen as a non-standard individual. In the majority of situations where an officer must keep himself or others safe this line of thinking is helpful. If you keep in mind that they are programmed to respond a specific way to confrontation for a good reason it's easier to swallow answering with a pleasant tone and with helpful information.

ie: Q. "Do you have any drugs or weapons in the vehicle."

A1. "No sir" or "Yes sir in the trunk and I have an FID"

A2. "Why are you asking me?" <-- you're not going to get a good reaction.

Believe me when I say that I've had problems with individual officers, BUT, looking back I can see how most of these situations could have been avoided.

If I walked into my local PD and saw that same sign I would know it's incorrect, but I honestly wouldn't expect to get anywhere argueing that point locally because someone ordered someone to put that sign there.

As for answering the question of how I intend to use a weapon, I thought target practice would be good enough (and has been). I may just opt for "legal purposes" in the future because I try to avoid situations where it's unlikely I'll come out ahead.

 

Well then throw me up there with the 'non-standard' folks...maybe Ill have the 'standard' folks over and talk to them about it...I wear a suit and sell insurance...Im pretty non standard...LOL...

Come on man, you are missing the point. Its not a debate on social theory. I have my rights and he has his job. His ultimate job is to determine if I broke a law and use his rights arrest me. So my job is to avoid that and use my rights to do so. This is not a debate, this is law. If you are a smart a**, you will be treated as such. That goes without saying. I have never had any problems with the police because I dont let it become a problem because I use my rights respectfully to promote individual liberty and happiness...since those documents stand as law, and are referring to me (and everyone) I will use them to pursue those goals. Whether in business dealings, or dealing with the police. When you are in the right you are in the right. I am not going to buy a conformity argument here because its 'easy', thats all everyone is saying...make it 'easy', dont be a 'target'...well when the 4 year old's in Trenton get another swift idea that encroaches a teeny bit further, you can thank the 'non-standard' people for stopping it. You guys are missing the seriousness of this issue in NJ. If a guy in Scotch Plains is told he 'does not need a gun because not much happens here' you should all be outraged...maybe it was your buddy who would have got into match shooting with you, maybe that guy went to the range and you met him and you made a friend? You are missing the point of how seriously out of step and UN AMERICAN NJ gun laws are....

If they are programmed, well then that's not very good now is it? Might as well automate the whole thing? Please...

[maideneddie 35]

Really it all boils down to your particular P.D. If you have a easy going local P.D. then you should expext not to have to jump through hoops to get your permits or FID. If your local department is a little harsher than most, you need to just deciede how important your desires are. I know you can debate until the cows come home about how the laws are set up, but unfortunatley we live where we do. If you really want your permits than you really have no choice but to answer the questions that the officer asks you. If you are beligerant, than expect te same in return, and to wait a really long time to get what you want. It is too bad that this varies so much from town to town, but if being a legal gun owner is something that you aspire to be, than you must play the game. It is a fact of life in NJ, and like it has been said before, the officer questioning you is just doing what he was told to do. Do you really think he or she would risk their job because you are a cool person that they think is alright to extend the courtesy of fast tracking a permit application? No way!!! You wouldn't do it either if your boss set a strict guideline of who is eligiable or not depending on the anwsers to the questions that are asked of you.

 

Again just remember the place that we live in, and unfortunatley there is no set standard that is followed. Perhaps in time that will all change, but until then, respect the police officer that you are dealing with, and be courtious. A little courtesy goes a long way!!!

[Maksim 1,504]

well, how about this... instead of having a pitty party... complaining about the LEO, why not call the Chief, inform them of how the info they posted is wrong, if they dont take it down, call the NJ State Police... they WILL call the PD and make it straight. Then, call the Mayor's office, tell them you are a good law abiding tax paying resident, and the local PD is breaking the law and you will sue if you have to. Watch how quickly that sign gets ripped down.

 

All of that will get things fixed.

 

Complaining how unreasonable people are.... while it will make you feel good for 5 mins, DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING.

 

Me going off earlier was particularly about this.... time and time again, people come here, start complaining about stuff, putting in 5 hours arguing about it... while it could of been fixed in 15 mins or less, by making 3 phone calls, 5 mins each.