Choice of weapon for home defense - potential legalities

[Dan 177]

I agree, less than lethal is a bad idea. If your life is in danger, you will want to stop their attack ASAP. Watch this guy take multiple beanbag hits, pepper spray, etc.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/169222/samurai_sword_vs_police/

[vjf915 456]

I remember seeing that on cops before. Again, I can see how less than lethal ammo would be useful in law enforcement......in a situation exactly like THAT one. Where you have the guy surrounded, he cannot escape, and if he does become an immediate threat....live ammunition can be used by those without less than lethal ammo. In that situation, there was a very small risk of any of the LEO's getting hurt due to using less than lethal. When you are one on one, or even one on more than one....you do NOT want to be using LTL.

[GRIZ 3,369]

If a prosecutor is pursuing the type and caliber of weapon you used to defend yourself that is the least of your worries as your problem is much bigger than that. If someone is shot, they're shot; if they're dead, they're dead. The end result is the same if you use a NJ compliant AR or an evil one with a flash surpressor and bayonet stud (your problem there would be the "assault rifle"). A prosecutor is not going to be able to make a case based solely on what kind of weapon and ammo you used. Using handloads can influence your case as has been discussed elsewhere but even in that situation you are standing trial because there are other problems. I'm talking criminal cases here.

 

The fact you wore a green shirt can be used against you in a civil case. There is also a lot of common sense things that you need to consider civilly. If someone invades your home and you use the 500 S&W that is closest to you nad loaded that's one thing. If you had a carry permit and choose a 500 S&W as your everyday carry gun (I have seen people say this on other forums) that's another.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Okay Dan, which guns or calibers do you consider overkill? Since that's what this thread is all about.

[Joeybones 1]

I have a 3 year old so all of my guns except a glock 26 are kept in a safe. I have pondered the idea of having it painted pink with yellow flowers. I figure it would look less evil to a jury then a completely black one.

[Regulator72 80]

Also consider the round(s) you choose to protect yourself with. I have heard in several gun classes, one given by a retired police that IF you were to use "Home Defense" type rounds, this will come up in court, civil case. I know its not illegal, and i understand that you may use whatever round you choose, however, a lawyer will bring up the fact that you purchased Home Defense rounds specifically designed to kill a person. Why did you purchase them? did you plan on killing someone? You purchased them with the intent to shoot someone? I know this sounds like BS, and it is, but this is what you will be faced with. just food for thought...

 

Disclaimer; my HD shotgun has HD rounds in it as well as the 1911 loaded with Hornady Defense in my night stand! ymmv...

[vjf915 456]

Why did you purchase them?

And the only response to this questions should be that you purchased them because they are more effective against stopping a threat, and his client was threatening your life. It also may be useful to reference the fire extinguisher you have, and that you hope you never have to use that as well......but it's still there! It's a dirty game that lawyers like that play, and I find it hard to believe that they are human and can sleep at night.

[Dan 177]

Okay Dan, which guns or calibers do you consider overkill? Since that's what this thread is all about.

 

I already answered this in a previous post:

 

I get what your saying here. My view is to draw the line so to speak by using weapons and ammunition that are in current and common usage in the various LE agencies in the state or even country. I also consider what a jury made up of apathetic or even anti-gun NJ citizens would feel when they held up the weapon in question during a trial. So that in my mind would exclude AR types even though police commonly use them. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 as well, just I'd like to stack the odds in my favor when it comes to the getting tried part.

 

If a prosecutor is pursuing the type and caliber of weapon you used to defend yourself that is the least of your worries as your problem is much bigger than that.

 

Yup, It would not be the only reason you find yourself in court. They know they cannot apply a law that you broke with the type of gun/round that you use. My point is that if there were questionable circumstances, and you were in a position in which you had to defend yourself in court, that using a weapon type/ammo that is not in common usage by LE agencies could count against you when the prosecutor is building up your character to the jury. In my opinion, a weapon that is easier for the DA or lawyer to demonize to a typical NJ jury, will not help you. If it was .40 cal pistol... the defense is "its the same type of weapon chosen by many PD departments here in NJ."

[vladtepes 1,060]

Why did you purchase them?

 

because they are best defending yourself against criminals while not putting innocent people at risk due to over penetration..

[Babaganoosh 192]

I'm thinking that your choice of firearm would have more effect at a civil trial (when the family tries to sue you for shooting their wonderful son, who was at the wrong place at the wrong time) then it would anything else.

[bbk 188]

As its already been noted, it boils down to stopping the threat.

I think if anybody used anything (9MM, 45, a lamp, kitchen knife), they will come under scrutiny regardless. But it seems that as long as the action is justified, how could it be argued otherwise?

I think where a person has to be careful is knowing when a threat is present, and when there is no longer a threat. An actor is not a threat when their back is present and are fleeing... nor would unloading numerous magazines (though I understand this one can be argued as lawyers can start throwing around BS about how a person reacts in stress environments, etc, losing track and falling back on training, etc).

And otherwise, it seems like this is a circular argument.

[vjf915 456]

I think it is terribly sad that we need to discuss this in the first place. NJ needs some immunity from both criminal and civil in a justified self defense shooting.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I get what your saying here. My view is to draw the line so to speak by using weapons and ammunition that are in current and common usage in the various LE agencies in the state or even country. I also consider what a jury made up of apathetic or even anti-gun NJ citizens would feel when they held up the weapon in question during a trial. So that in my mind would exclude AR types even though police commonly use them. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 as well, just I'd like to stack the odds in my favor when it comes to the getting tried part.

 

That makes a little sense, but I use 38s and 9mm for home defense. My local PD doesn't, does that make those rounds overkill?

[Krdshrk 3,878]

That makes a little sense, but I use 38s and 9mm for home defense. My local PD doesn't, does that make those rounds overkill?

 

I thought you use .410/.45LC now

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I thought you use .410/.45LC now

 

I will, once I run that little honey on Tuesday night I'll consider her good to go. I was just trying to make dan even mader, since he's a persistant one.

 

jk Dan

[Dan 177]

I will, once I run that little honey on Tuesday night I'll consider her good to go. I was just trying to make dan even mader, since he's a persistant one.

 

jk Dan

 

Hah! I admit that I'm, shall we say... highly opinionated. ;p

 

That makes a little sense, but I use 38s and 9mm for home defense. My local PD doesn't, does that make those rounds overkill?

 

Good question. My logic is around weapon and ammo types in common use in LE pretty much anywhere in the country. I'm talking stuff the patrolman would carry holstered, or mounted in the squad car like a shotgun. I guess you can say pistols in .45, .40, .357 mag, .38, .357 sig, 9mm,. I may be missing some but they are what comes to mind. I'm not sure how many LE agencies still use wheelguns, but at least the .357mag/.38 has a pretty big track record in law enforcement use. Again, minus the "scary" stuff like .50 BMG sniper rifles the SWAT guys might have, or even a M4 they may have locked in the trunk. You just don't see cops walking around with those things slung except in special circumstances... hence not "common" i.e. weapons that people see everyday that cops carry.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Hah! I admit that I'm, shall we say... highly opinionated. ;p

 

 

 

Good question. My logic is around weapon and ammo types in common use in LE pretty much anywhere in the country. I'm talking stuff the patrolman would carry holstered, or mounted in the squad car like a shotgun. I guess you can say pistols in .45, .40, .357 mag, .38, .357 sig, 9mm,. I may be missing some but they are what comes to mind. I'm not sure how many LE agencies still use wheelguns, but at least the .357mag/.38 has a pretty big track record in law enforcement use. Again, minus the "scary" stuff like .50 BMG sniper rifles the SWAT guys might have, or even a M4 they may have locked in the trunk. You just don't see cops walking around with those things slung except in special circumstances... hence not "common" i.e. weapons that people see everyday that cops carry.

 

 

egg harbor twp uses ARs and they are commonly used in the same way a shotgun might come out.. so I guess I am good to use my AR10 since it looks like an AR15 but NOT my Saiga because that looks too much like a terrorist gun.. got it.. thanks!

 

 

what police department utilizes 50 bmg? I didnt know that was something that showed up in the LE arsenal..

[Dan 177]

egg harbor twp uses ARs and they are commonly used in the same way a shotgun might come out.. so I guess I am good to use my AR10 since it looks like an AR15 but NOT my Saiga because that looks too much like a terrorist gun.. got it.. thanks!

 

 

Nice! Welp, I think I communicated my opinions, take it for what they are. I agree with a few posters that there is no right answer (circular discussion), just a culmination of opinions. I hope readers understand all angles of the conversation and can use all of the information when making their choices and decisions on the types of firearms they employ in their HD strategy.

 

 

Regarding the AR10 Vlad, cool rifle! I'm just glad I'm not your neighbor!

[Dan 177]

what police department utilizes 50 bmg? I didnt know that was something that showed up in the LE arsenal..

 

Going by the instance where Barrett refused to further service or sell .50 cal rifles any longer to California LE agencies. Stems from them using department owned 82A1 rifles in photo shoots for the press during LE's pushing for the .50 cal ban.

 

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/barrett-arms-maker-50-caliber-t48435.html

[vladtepes 1,060]

Going by the instance where Barrett refused to further service or sell .50 cal rifles any longer to California LE agencies. Stems from them using department owned 82A1 rifles in photo shoots for the press during LE's pushing for the .50 cal ban.

 

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/barrett-arms-maker-50-caliber-t48435.html

 

 

gotcha I was more thinking NJ.. but fair enough example.. I actually read something about that before.. but it totally escaped my mind.. good link..

[bulpup 98]

I'm thinking that your choice of firearm would have more effect at a civil trial (when the family tries to sue you for shooting their wonderful son, who was at the wrong place at the wrong time) then it would anything else.

 

+1 right there. The best thing that could come out of this thread would be if we found the link to rhat story about the

man attacked in front of his house by three people. It was a .pdf sent arond by a legal or lawyers "network.". I particularly remember that the attackers were something like semi pro kick boxers or something.

 

That document us really somethng we all should read start to finish. It was only incredible luck this guy was not in jail and paying out a windfall for the rest of his life. All the thoughts about what I thought would be common sense went right out the window.

 

 

Edit

here. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18590-a-must-read/page__fromsearch__1

[vladtepes 1,060]

+1 right there. The best thing that could come out of this thread would be if we found the link to rhat story about the

man attacked in front of his house by three people. It was a .pdf sent arond by a legal or lawyers "network.". I particularly remember that the attackers were something like semi pro kick boxers or something.

 

That document us really somethng we all should read start to finish. It was only incredible luck this guy was not in jail and paying out a windfall for the rest of his life. All the thoughts about what I thought would be common sense went right out the window.

 

 

Edit

here. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18590-a-must-read/page__fromsearch__1

 

while I agree that he was justified.. there is a fairly large difference between shooting someone in your driveway who is unarmed.. and shooting someone who has already broken into your house... while I get the point to some degree.. due to the nature of our gun laws we would only be shooting someone who had already broken into our home and is advancing towards us..

 

just saying..

[KpdPipes 388]

Does NJ law require us to brandish a firearm to scare someone?

Does NJ law require us to shoot to injure?

 

I think in fact the law is just about opposite and that it clearly defines the use of deadly force.. If I point a gun at someone.. it better be with regard to the law a life or death situation.. and at that point.. the intention IS to kill.. it is to kill because at that moment I believe my life hangs in the balance.. in fact.. not to jump to a different state.. but the FL ccw information I received with my permit tends to go along with what I am saying here.. there is no instance of law NJ OR FL that I am aware of where the law wants you to use a firearm or the threat of a firearm to gain leverage.. the intention of the law is to use deadly force only when confronted with the need to use deadly force.. and at that point the force is exactly as described.. deadly.. the intention is to kill.. to kill to save ones own life.. as I stated before.. a DA can want all they want to hang you at noon in the town square.. but if you did nothing wrong.. good luck.. everyone can do what they want.. if someone breaks into your home and you want to carefully select the least intimidating gun you own more power to you.. for me.. I am grabbing the closest thing I see, because I will not waste seconds worrying about the outcome..

 

the DA can claim I am a lunatic fringe anti government militant bent on killing everyone in the world.. but if someone breaks into my home with a weapon.. and puts my life at risk.. all that nonsense fluff isn't going to matter..

 

Ok, I'll play. What County do you Live in, What are the Demographics? What kind of Attorney can you afford, What will HE try to steer the jury to on Voix Deure (SP?). What is the Race, Home of the Actor?? Think this isnt important?? take a look at Who the Jury pool will be taken from. this goes for both the Civil and Criminal cases....because there WILL BE A CIVIL SUIT FILED, no matter how Justified. I've told this story several times here, but a Co-worker was involved in an on-duty shooting. He shot an individual who was ACTIVLY TRYING TO KILL HIM, even the actor himself admitted openly he was trying to Kill my co-worker...Bad guy STILL Filed a Suit against him, personally for several million dollars. it was struck down by the assignment Judge, but it JUST As easily could have been "Let's see what the Jury Decides". there is ALWAYS "That Guy" in the phone book that will file for ANY case...just on the off chance he'll make a Buck.

 

I have seen Juries Give out awards that wee untterly insane...in an obvious case of "Lets Stick it to the Man", I have seen juries find "No Fault' in cases where a blind man could see there was megligence involved. While the US and NJ Constitutions garuntee us trial by a jury of our "Peers" it also fails to DEFINE what a "Peer" actually is. Economic? Professional?, Educational?, Interests?. Who is more a Jury of YOUR Peers Vlad?? A cross-section of sportsmen who are familiar with firearms, or a gaggle of Suburban soccer-moms, who believe that all guns are inherently evil? I'll ket you in on a secret..do you want to know WHY OJ Simpson walked away from his Murder Charge??? Because the defense put on a Better Show in the courtroom than the Prosecution...pure and simple. The evidence had him DEAD TO RIGHTS, but the Evidence was technical and boring, whereas the Defense put on a Show...the Glove thing was Brilliant...Showmanship and negated a hundred hours of dry, scientific, technical testimony that proved OJ was the Killer.

[BigHayden 77]

Caliber has absolutely no bearing on a justifiable shooting whatsoever. This is not common sense, this is how the law works. If it was a legal shooting, with a legal gun, then there is nothing wrong with it. As I stated in the other thread, and as some stated here....deadly force is deadly force.

 

I have two words for you: Harold Fish

 

And keep in mind, that was in Arizona, which isn't exactly an anti-gun state. You can't say is has no bearing, because it absolutely can. You can say that is should have no bearing, and I would agree, but reality demonstrates otherwise.

[bulpup 98]

while I agree that he was justified.. there is a fairly large difference between shooting someone in your driveway who is unarmed.. and shooting someone who has already broken into your house... while I get the point to some degree.. due to the nature of our gun laws we would only be shooting someone who had already broken into our home and is advancing towards us..

 

just saying..

 

The story is very relevent. Because, yes you could have an incident happen on your driveway. Secondly, the entire document is exactly about the court case, how the man was portrayed and what it took to counter.

 

For instance, he was an NRA trained instrcuctor, the DA tried to paint him as a "wannabe." It wasn't until they showed him training Marines to go to Afghanistan that that was succesfully countered. Unless you train Marines there is very likely no way you could counter that portrayal of yourself, no matter where the shooting occured.

 

There is much to be learned from that document and should not be dismissed simply because the man was on his driveway when it happened.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Ok, I'll play. What County do you Live in, What are the Demographics? What kind of Attorney can you afford, What will HE try to steer the jury to on Voix Deure (SP?). What is the Race, Home of the Actor?? Think this isnt important?? take a look at Who the Jury pool will be taken from. this goes for both the Civil and Criminal cases....because there WILL BE A CIVIL SUIT FILED, no matter how Justified. I've told this story several times here, but a Co-worker was involved in an on-duty shooting. He shot an individual who was ACTIVLY TRYING TO KILL HIM, even the actor himself admitted openly he was trying to Kill my co-worker...Bad guy STILL Filed a Suit against him, personally for several million dollars. it was struck down by the assignment Judge, but it JUST As easily could have been "Let's see what the Jury Decides". there is ALWAYS "That Guy" in the phone book that will file for ANY case...just on the off chance he'll make a Buck.

 

I have seen Juries Give out awards that wee untterly insane...in an obvious case of "Lets Stick it to the Man", I have seen juries find "No Fault' in cases where a blind man could see there was megligence involved. While the US and NJ Constitutions garuntee us trial by a jury of our "Peers" it also fails to DEFINE what a "Peer" actually is. Economic? Professional?, Educational?, Interests?. Who is more a Jury of YOUR Peers Vlad?? A cross-section of sportsmen who are familiar with firearms, or a gaggle of Suburban soccer-moms, who believe that all guns are inherently evil? I'll ket you in on a secret..do you want to know WHY OJ Simpson walked away from his Murder Charge??? Because the defense put on a Better Show in the courtroom than the Prosecution...pure and simple. The evidence had him DEAD TO RIGHTS, but the Evidence was technical and boring, whereas the Defense put on a Show...the Glove thing was Brilliant...Showmanship and negated a hundred hours of dry, scientific, technical testimony that proved OJ was the Killer.

 

at the end of the day it is honestly irrelevant.. and here is why... with the threat of bodily harm... death.. in my own home.. and possible violence against my loved ones.. I would not hesitate to defend my life.. so all the stressful hypotheticals that occur after that point and time are moot... because they are not even going to be in my head should I have to act... lets face it.. the likelihood of any of that even happening is statistically unlikely..but hey.. what IF it does.. what more can I do than defend myself.. I will not allow possible legal repercussions cause me even a moments hesitation when it comes to defending my life or the lives of my loved ones.. what if? what if I go to shoot and miss and kill the neighbor... what if the round ricochets off of the wall and hits me square in the head and kills me? what if? even with all the unknowns one thing is certain.. and that is the scumbag.. on the verge of attacking.. who has already broken into my home.. is MORE of a threat than any legal problems that may ensue after... alive and facing legal issue is far better than dead..

[vladtepes 1,060]

The story is very relevent. Because, yes you could have an incident happen on your driveway. Secondly, the entire document is exactly about the court case, how the man was portrayed and what it took to counter.

 

For instance, he was an NRA trained instrcuctor, the DA tried to paint him as a "wannabe." It wasn't until they showed him training Marines to go to Afghanistan that that was succesfully countered. Unless you train Marines there is very likely no way you could counter that portrayal of yourself, no matter where the shooting occured.

 

There is much to be learned from that document and should not be dismissed simply because the man was on his driveway when it happened.

 

I am never in my driveway/street with a loaded gun.. I live in NJ and the ability to protect myself with a firearm OUTSIDE my home is pretty much nonexistent..

[KpdPipes 388]

at the end of the day it is honestly irrelevant.. and here is why... with the threat of bodily harm... death.. in my own home.. and possible violence against my loved ones.. I would not hesitate to defend my life.. so all the stressful hypotheticals that occur after that point and time are moot... because they are not even going to be in my head should I have to act... lets face it.. the likelihood of any of that even happening is statistically unlikely..but hey.. what IF it does.. what more can I do than defend myself.. I will not allow possible legal repercussions cause me even a moments hesitation when it comes to defending my life or the lives of my loved ones.. what if? what if I go to shoot and miss and kill the neighbor... what if the round ricochets off of the wall and hits me square in the head and kills me? what if? even with all the unknowns one thing is certain.. and that is the scumbag.. on the verge of attacking.. who has already broken into my home.. is MORE of a threat than any legal problems that may ensue after... alive and facing legal issue is far better than dead..

I'll say one last thing..... and preface it with a Question. DO YOU PREPARE yourself by being as proficient with your firearm as possible? If so that is the Correct thing to do..therefore WHY Would you Not be JUST AS PREPARED for the aftermath? Frankly anyone who doesnt prepare for and plan ALL Aspects of a possible Deadly Force incident are fools. Have a Plan...have a Back-up Plan, and have a BACK UP to THAT..Have an Atorney Picked, and have a Phone Number Handy... It's EASY to say "Worry about the legal Aspects later"...until suddenly you're home that you just Killed to defend, isnt YOURS ANYMORE. Dont be an Idiot and think "It'll all sort itself out" Jesus Christ I have Qualified Immunity for use of force, and i STILL have preparations in place in case I need to use my weapon.

 

NOW I'm done.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'll say one last thing..... and preface it with a Question. DO YOU PREPARE yourself by being as proficient with your firearm as possible? If so that is the Correct thing to do..therefore WHY Would you Not be JUST AS PREPARED for the aftermath? Frankly anyone who doesnt prepare for and plan ALL Aspects of a possible Deadly Force incident are fools. Have a Plan...have a Back-up Plan, and have a BACK UP to THAT..Have an Atorney Picked, and have a Phone Number Handy... It's EASY to say "Worry about the legal Aspects later"...until suddenly you're home that you just Killed to defend, isnt YOURS ANYMORE. Dont be an Idiot and think "It'll all sort itself out" Jesus Christ I have Qualified Immunity for use of force, and i STILL have preparations in place in case I need to use my weapon.

 

NOW I'm done.

 

+1

that is GOOD FAIR advice.. point made..

[tuktuk 16]

Pls read an article in general bucket section in the "a must read thread". it is directly related to what we are Talkin about here. ESP read the last couple of pages where it is says its not about the law but about wining and loosing and how the judge alone has the power to say what goes in the trial or whats not and about how DA were making staff up. Common sense right? Jury hang both tines!!! The guy was lucky, even after they proved that he acted according with The law, after they proved the witnesses lied, after they proved the police didn't do their job, after experts on their side >>>> still some of the jury wanted to convicte him!!! That's a lesson for all of us....

“In the first trial, Nicolini was all concerned about of the defense witnesses,” he remembers. the gun that Larry used. It was a standard Glock 19 loaded Continued on Page 17 with a combination of Silvertip ammunition and some other Paid Advertisement miscellaneous ammo that was at the bottom of the mag. He was trying to paint the picture of this gun being inherently dangerous, reckless, unsafe, saying ‘It doesn’t have a safety on it, does it?’ I thought it was kind of a weird that he was attacking the gun as much as he was,