Guy at the range with a Magpul UBR

[Cylinder Head 22]

I was at the BH a little over a week ago, place was literally dead at about 6:30PM and my friend and I had the run of the place for a little over a half hour before a guy and his girlfriend show up. He notices my rifle and my HK45 and starts talking about how he left his HK45 at home but loves it, and mentioned that we both used a good amount of Magpul stuff.

 

Anyway he pulls his AR out and I notice he has a Magpul UBR mounted on the back of her, and before I can ask him what kind of a pain it was to pin when he just rips the thing from fully closed to fully open. I kind of sat in amazement, I had even talked to him about how I got my ACS pinned.

 

This guy tells me he does 3-gun all the time, nobody's said anything about the stock, and nobody has said anything at the range either. Is he in for an inevitable reckoning? Should I have said something?

[Malsua 1,422]

I was at the BH a little over a week ago, place was literally dead at about 6:30PM and my friend and I had the run of the place for a little over a half hour before a guy and his girlfriend show up. He notices my rifle and my HK45 and starts talking about how he left his HK45 at home but loves it, and mentioned that we both used a good amount of Magpul stuff.

 

Anyway he pulls his AR out and I notice he has a Magpul UBR mounted on the back of her, and before I can ask him what kind of a pain it was to pin when he just rips the thing from fully closed to fully open. I kind of sat in amazement, I had even talked to him about how I got my ACS pinned.

 

This guy tells me he does 3-gun all the time, nobody's said anything about the stock, and nobody has said anything at the range either. Is he in for an inevitable reckoning? Should I have said something?

 

When I was at the range Friday a guy a couple ports down from me was talking to the guy next to him who reached up and unscrewed his AR's brake "because it's easier to clean that way".

 

So yes, if he runs into a Fife with a hard-on for guns somewhere, he's in deep dog poop.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I was at the BH a little over a week ago, place was literally dead at about 6:30PM and my friend and I had the run of the place for a little over a half hour before a guy and his girlfriend show up. He notices my rifle and my HK45 and starts talking about how he left his HK45 at home but loves it, and mentioned that we both used a good amount of Magpul stuff.

 

Anyway he pulls his AR out and I notice he has a Magpul UBR mounted on the back of her, and before I can ask him what kind of a pain it was to pin when he just rips the thing from fully closed to fully open. I kind of sat in amazement, I had even talked to him about how I got my ACS pinned.

 

This guy tells me he does 3-gun all the time, nobody's said anything about the stock, and nobody has said anything at the range either. Is he in for an inevitable reckoning? Should I have said something?

 

 

people do what they want.. I have seen muzzle devices that were clearly flash hiders..

 

I would politely tell him the truth.. when I had the conversation with the guy with the flash hider I pulled him aside and discretely told him what I know.. "look I am no expert, and it is your gun so by all means do what you want.. but just so you know I am pretty sure your gun violates NJs gun ban because of the hider I would replace it with a brake just to avoid any potential problems" he was receptive.. and he said he was not concerned.. so I left it at that.. I know that I did my part keeping his name out of the paper for having "dangerous assault weapons".. what he does is up to him.. my take on the situation? far more trouble than it is worth.. I would never cross that line of having an illegal gun..

[joejaxx 38]

I was at the BH a little over a week ago, place was literally dead at about 6:30PM and my friend and I had the run of the place for a little over a half hour before a guy and his girlfriend show up. He notices my rifle and my HK45 and starts talking about how he left his HK45 at home but loves it, and mentioned that we both used a good amount of Magpul stuff.

 

Anyway he pulls his AR out and I notice he has a Magpul UBR mounted on the back of her, and before I can ask him what kind of a pain it was to pin when he just rips the thing from fully closed to fully open. I kind of sat in amazement, I had even talked to him about how I got my ACS pinned.

 

This guy tells me he does 3-gun all the time, nobody's said anything about the stock, and nobody has said anything at the range either. Is he in for an inevitable reckoning? Should I have said something?

 

 

When I was at the range Friday a guy a couple ports down from me was talking to the guy next to him who reached up and unscrewed his AR's brake "because it's easier to clean that way".

 

So yes, if he runs into a Fife with a hard-on for guns somewhere, he's in deep dog poop.

 

 

The guy could have a registered Assault weapon and an Assault Weapon License but I doubt it.

[Cylinder Head 22]

The guy could have a registered Assault weapon and an Assault Weapon License but I doubt it.

 

This was a normal dude, he had just built the rifle. Nice guy too. I'm just surprised how few people really understand a fraction of NJ's gun laws.

[vladtepes 1,060]

This was a normal dude, he had just built the rifle. Nice guy too. I'm just surprised how few people really understand a fraction of NJ's gun laws.

 

 

understand? or even bother to look at it..

[Melgamatic 66]

I am sure he could end up in trouble, and spend a lot of $$ on legal help, but I'm not sure he would be convicted. I really don't believe that the clause in the AW definition "a folding or telescoping stock" applies to "adjustable" stocks. The wording was intended to prevent people from having weapons that were too short, short enough to hide. An adjustable stock that was adjustable for 1-2" and intended to allow the rifle to be fitted to the owner seems not be what the law intended.

 

Now, I'm not walking around with an adjustable stock because I don't want to spend a few nights or weeks in jail, and spend 100's of $1000's in legal fees before being found not guilty, but if one of you want to try it I'd buy you a beer once you finally got cleared.

 

The other stuff, like flash suppressors and removable threaded things on the end of barrels are clearly mentioned in the famous memo, relinked here for your ease of use: AW Definition Memo, but the folding stock thing isn't as clear....

 

As for whether or not I'd tell the guy, I would not mention it because I don't want to be that kind of guy at the range. We all have met range "experts" who had all sorts of opinions they gave us, whether or not we cared, and I just don't want to be that guy.

 

-Dave

[halbautomatisch 60]

While I would certainly not recommened anyone posses anything that violates the AG's guidelines, it is NOT black letter law that flashhiders, tel/folding stocks are illegal. The prosecution would still need to prove to a judge that the firearm is "substantially identical" to a banned firearm. This is not impossible being that we are after all in NJ, but it is by no means a slam dunk for the prosecution.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

If I came across someone that had something that was "questionable" by our law, I would let him (or her) know but not make a huge deal about it. Over the summer a guy came into the Bayonne range from VA with his 15-22 that had 25? round mags. I told him but didn't make a big fuss over it. Why bring attention to something so stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

[joejaxx 38]

I am sure he could end up in trouble, and spend a lot of $$ on legal help, but I'm not sure he would be convicted. I really don't believe that the clause in the AW definition "a folding or telescoping stock" applies to "adjustable" stocks. The wording was intended to prevent people from having weapons that were too short, short enough to hide. An adjustable stock that was adjustable for 1-2" and intended to allow the rifle to be fitted to the owner seems not be what the law intended.

 

Now, I'm not walking around with an adjustable stock because I don't want to spend a few nights or weeks in jail, and spend 100's of $1000's in legal fees before being found not guilty, but if one of you want to try it I'd buy you a beer once you finally got cleared.

 

The other stuff, like flash suppressors and removable threaded things on the end of barrels are clearly mentioned in the famous memo, relinked here for your ease of use: AW Definition Memo, but the folding stock thing isn't as clear....

 

As for whether or not I'd tell the guy, I would not mention it because I don't want to be that kind of guy at the range. We all have met range "experts" who had all sorts of opinions they gave us, whether or not we cared, and I just don't want to be that guy.

 

-Dave

 

The Magpul PRS stock is adjustable and legal on a AR15 since it does not collapse. The Magpul UBR stock collapses. Also the folding/collapsing stock restriction only applies to firearms on the list or the clones of said rifles.

[vjf915 456]

I would not want someone to go to jail when I could prevent it by simply explaining a minor detail. Don't get me wrong, I would say it ONCE and say it very humbly, just a simple suggestion.....but I WOULD mention it.

[The_Matrix 105]

I saw a guy and his young son with a M1 Carbine. I just said "cool, looks nice" and went on my merry way.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

What makes you think these guys with all those things don't know the law?

They are simply playing the odds.

REALLY, how often do you hear someone getting flat out popped for any of that.

Ok Brian Aitken and his mom called the cops on him.

 

Those guys know the laws, they just don't figure they have any real chance of getting hassled for that.

[tuktuk 16]

What makes you think these guys with all those things don't know the law?

They are simply playing the odds.

REALLY, how often do you hear someone getting flat out popped for any of that.

Ok Brian Aitken and his mom called the cops on him.

Those guys know the laws, they just don't figure they have any real chance of getting hassled for that.

 

+1 totally agree with what u re saying.

When it comes to gun ownership it is individual's responsibility to know the law. Cmon guys we are not talking candy here. If you don't take your time to learn the law or you bluntly violet it >>> it's on your head. Couple of times that I ran into similar citation, I just said: oh Kool, I didn't know you can have this in NJ, and the response was : you can't but I'm soo bad I dont give a **** and I know ppl who know ppl. So I didnt even handle the firearms after they offered because no matter how much we don't like it >>> there is a law and the law says those firearms are illegal.

[Maksim 1,504]

I would say maybe less than 10% of the gun owners in NJ know the law... including the fine folks on the forum. The rest just go buy the FFL's interpretation of it.

 

As far as 3 gun... maybe it is out of state? alot of the 3 gun matches are at Topton, in PA. There are few and far between in NJ.

[JimmyAGR 54]

I would say maybe less than 10% of the gun owners in NJ know the law... including the fine folks on the forum. The rest just go buy the FFL's interpretation of it.

 

 

And even after reading the laws over and over there is still interpretation and open discussion on them. There is just too much grey area in NJ laws.

[PK90 3,573]

My educated guess:

 

About 95% of the people charged with anything to do with the Assault Weapon statutes did something else to draw attention to themselves, i.e. committed another offense and Domestic Violence. Although, the AW charges can be beat if seized during a DV and you have a good attorney.

 

 

[Dan 177]

I 3 different opinions from 3 different FFL/shops around if the stock muzzle device on a particular rifle was in fact a flash hider or muzzle brake, and what defines both.

 

I just picked up a new rifle last night from my FFL, he knows people and also said that almost always.. people getting busted on this stuff already did other bad things that they got caught for. The AWB stuff just adds on the years...

 

Even so, I just try to play it safe, and go with something sold and marketed as a "muzzle brake", and have it pinned on... as threads are clearly a no-no.

 

All you need is for a LEO to be in a bad mood and decides to take it all the way when it comes to this stuff.

[bbk 188]

I come from that school of thinking that defines 'integrity' as "doing the right thing even when no one is looking."

I also believe that since we [citizens] are always talking about our individual freedoms and how they shouldn't be trespassed upon by an authority figure (as long as we're not going against the ROL), it is our responsibility to police others in our own community. Am I going to report someone if I see something blatantly non-compliant? No. Will I say something to that individual? Definitely; and that is because that individual reflects not just the community, but me as well (as I am a part of said community). Ultimately though, it is their choice and actions (and consequences).

[Cylinder Head 22]

Well, now I feel like crap for not giving the chap a heads up. He really made me want to get a UBR too!

[bbk 188]

Ha, no worries-- "what happened, happened; and couldn't have happened any other way."

 

But on the note of the UBR, I have a hard time defining it as a collapsible stock. Does it collapse? Sure, in a way I guess. Considering the default setting is in its closed form, I would argue that it actually is an "expanding" stock versus a collapsing one.

 

But of course the wording "adjustable" could be used, and then I have no argument. But is adjustable really that evil? I could understand the concern for folding stocks (and how they might make it easier to conceal... though, lets be honest, a rifle with a folding stock that is also concealed is probably SBR'ed, which means its also somehow in NJ illegally [for the most part, I know there can be exceptions]). Oh well.

[Melgamatic 66]

The Magpul PRS stock is adjustable and legal on a AR15 since it does not collapse. The Magpul UBR stock collapses. Also the folding/collapsing stock restriction only applies to firearms on the list or the clones of said rifles.

 

Well, the length of pull (LOP) is adjustable on both stocks. The official letter doesn't say that the 1" of LOP adjustability on the PRS is ok, where the 3.36" LOP adjustment on the BRS is illegal. Either they're both OK or they both aren't. The PRS has a different mechanism, but a prosecutor might argue that there is still a component that "telescopes" into the main body.

 

If I was in a court of law, trying to defend myself, I'd make some argument that the amount of adjustability that would make an adjustable stock illegal is the amount that would make the rifle an SBR. As long as the rifle is of legal length at all positions the adjustability of the stock shouldn't make a legal difference. I'm pretty sure that's what they were trying to achieve - not allowing a folding stock or stock that was illegally short at some position.

 

The letter indicates "a folding or telescoping stock" - folding makes sense, why would they put telescoping in there?

 

Can someone find a firearm they might have been thinking about when they put this letter together? We all see folding stocks on various wonderful rifles, like an M1 carbine, but what's an example of a rifle with a telescoping stock they might have had in mind?

 

Remember, this letter came out in 1996, and the AR accessories market was nothing like we have today. Magpul wasn't even in business until 1999; were there commonly-available adjustable AR-15 stocks around in 1996?

 

Here's that letter again: AW Letter

 

-Dave

[Turbotezza 1]

With some modification to the UBR, you could put it on a gun with a rifle buffer.

 

Well, now I feel like crap for not giving the chap a heads up. He really made me want to get a UBR too!

[vladtepes 1,060]

Well, the length of pull (LOP) is adjustable on both stocks. The official letter doesn't say that the 1" of LOP adjustability on the PRS is ok, where the 3.36" LOP adjustment on the BRS is illegal. Either they're both OK or they both aren't. The PRS has a different mechanism, but a prosecutor might argue that there is still a component that "telescopes" into the main body.

 

If I was in a court of law, trying to defend myself, I'd make some argument that the amount of adjustability that would make an adjustable stock illegal is the amount that would make the rifle an SBR. As long as the rifle is of legal length at all positions the adjustability of the stock shouldn't make a legal difference. I'm pretty sure that's what they were trying to achieve - not allowing a folding stock or stock that was illegally short at some position.

 

The letter indicates "a folding or telescoping stock" - folding makes sense, why would they put telescoping in there?

 

Can someone find a firearm they might have been thinking about when they put this letter together? We all see folding stocks on various wonderful rifles, like an M1 carbine, but what's an example of a rifle with a telescoping stock they might have had in mind?

 

Remember, this letter came out in 1996, and the AR accessories market was nothing like we have today. Magpul wasn't even in business until 1999; were there commonly-available adjustable AR-15 stocks around in 1996?

 

Here's that letter again: AW Letter

 

-Dave

 

here is the difference I would be willing to argue...

 

traditional AR collapsible stock.. the STOCK moves forward and back.. making the STOCK adjustable..

 

on the PRS the STOCK is %100 fixed... the butt plate is adjustable...

 

the PRS is NOT an adjustable stock as far as I can tell.. it is a fixed stock with adjustable butt plate..

[Ray Ray 3,566]

here is the difference I would be willing to argue...

 

traditional AR collapsible stock.. the STOCK moves forward and back.. making the STOCK adjustable..

 

on the PRS the STOCK is %100 fixed... the butt plate is adjustable...

 

the PRS is NOT an adjustable stock as far as I can tell.. it is a fixed stock with adjustable butt plate..

 

Makes sense to me.

[nodonut 43]

i think people should mind their business, do you guys also count other patrons drinks at a bar and say "hey buddy you know you probably shouldn't drive right"

[vladtepes 1,060]

i think people should mind their business, do you guys also count other patrons drinks at a bar and say "hey buddy you know you probably shouldn't drive right"

 

no I don't count someone's drinks.. but if I saw someone staggering to their car.. yeah.. I would get involved.. while I am not up other peoples asses I do look out for others.. and would not let some staggering drunk get into his car and drive... the fear of getting involved stops a lot of people from stopping bad situations from happening..

[Malsua 1,422]

no I don't count someone's drinks.. but if I saw someone staggering to their car.. yeah.. I would get involved.. while I am not up other peoples asses I do look out for others.. and would not let some staggering drunk get into his car and drive... the fear of getting involved stops a lot of people from stopping bad situations from happening..

 

+1

[axeman_g 128]

i think people should mind their business, do you guys also count other patrons drinks at a bar and say "hey buddy you know you probably shouldn't drive right"

 

somebody is quickly reaching troll status.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

somebody is quickly reaching troll status.

 

+1

 

On the topic: I once asked a guy how he managed to pin a Vltor Mod-Stock and his reply was "I didn't, it's easier if I just slide it to the length I need"

To some I guess Ignorance is bliss...