The truth about the m4/16 type rifles

[ktm525xcatv 5]

Any volunteers to test the "weak 5.56 cartridge"?

It will only injure you :thsmiley_deadhorse:

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Also, one thing to note from the eyes of the US Army, etc:

 

-Are there better rifles out there than the M-16/M-4? Yes.

-Are these rifles such an improvement to offset the cost of upgrading? No.

[GRIZ 3,369]

If you want a testament to the reliability and effectiveness of the M16 platform read Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab, a SAS trooper who led a team into Iraq during Gulf War I to find SCUD missle sites. I'm sure the SAS can use whatever they want and they all used the M16. I'm sure they could have picked FALs, AKs, or whatever they wanted to take. They had a running firefight for several days and if anything was going to make the M16 fail I imagine this would. McNab never makes mention of how bad the M16 is which I'm sure he would if it was. This was 20 years ago. I'm sure the SAS doesn't have some secret in maintaining their weapons.

 

I think most complaints about reliability are maintenance problems. When I was in I Corps in Vietnam I remember Marines getting excited when we (the Army) gave them cleaning equipment. The Marines had few cleaning rods, brushes, LSA, etc. Problems with their rifles? I'm sure if they didn't have the means to maintain them. Remember when they first issued M16s they told guys they didn't have to clean them so yes there were problems.

[axeman_g 128]

Hmmm.... L85a2

[GRIZ 3,369]

Hmmm.... L85a2

 

Which I'm sure they could have taken but they chose M16s.

 

AKs would have been an option, at least they may have looked like Iraqis from a distance.

[axeman_g 128]

20yrs ago I would have chosen a m16 over an l85a1 also... But the current version?

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Any volunteers to test the "weak 5.56 cartridge"?

It will only injure you :thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

 

Are you saying you would support me if I said we should issue .177 air guns? Because after all, you wouldnt want to stand in front of one right? (I know I wouldnt)

[bbk 188]

WOW Ben you're old if you were issued an A1...

 

Though I believe the Guard had some into the late 70's early 80's. About what year did you have an A1?

 

Believe it or not, 2004. It was right when OIF really started kicking off, and there simply wasn't enough gear for certain units. Most of my unit's budget went towards mission essential equipment (what little there was), and for the general issue stuff we were put in the 'back of the line' as we were a 'tasker' unit. Guns as a whole were still new to me then, but I remember taking a look at it when I drew it for quals, and knew immediately it was ancient. Had the odd discoloration, and I remember it even smelled funny.

Within a few months though it was replaced with brand new M16s and M4s (my whole unit actually), and our beater M16s were handed off to AFA

[GRIZ 3,369]

-Are there better rifles out there than the M-16/M-4? Yes.

-Are these rifles such an improvement to offset the cost of upgrading? No.

 

This is the part a lot of gun people forget. There is a lot more involved in changing calibers and/or weapons than running down to the gun shop with a wad of cash.

 

We have forced the standard NATO round down our Allies throats since WWII. First the 30-06 M2, then 7.62 NATO, and then 5.56. We acquised to our Allies in adopting the 9mm (along with other reasons).

 

The services have been upgarding M14s and issuing them. For a general issue weapon to the troops the M16/M4 in 5.56 is here to stay for some time.

[SMT85 4]

as the article shane posted explains. most of the m16/m4 style rifles unreliability pertains to, crappy issue mags to our troops.

i dont care what your rifle is, if your mag is reached its lifetime and your trying to use it, it will malfunction.

maintenance of weapons on the unit level is not the best. extractors are not replaced,bolts etc. then they are issued to our troops and they fail.

every mechanical device needs replacement parts after so long. the m16/m4 style weapon has been in service for a long time and more than likely

these issues have never been addressed and track of weapons have never been properly logged and maintained until now and the military is trying to play catch up

with maintenance of weapons that have thousands upon thousands of rounds down the tube.

 

i believe the m16/m4 family to be a very reliable weapon platform, it has been proven on many levels.

 

as for the 5.56 round not being lethal. i also have to disagree with this as well.

are there better rounds out there. yes. are any the do all end all round. no. they all have shortcomings

with 5.56 or 7.62 shot placement is paramount. if you dont hit haji anywhere vital he is not going to drop to the ground dead on impact. period.

 

scar 17 and m14's are being used for there extended ranges in terminal ballistics being as most Afghanistan engagements are long distance.

 

 

many believe that the army is going to replace the m4 when its done with its weapon trials, i find it hard to beleive personally.

an upgraded m4 (m4a1) is more likely with an improved extractor free float rail etc. other platforms like the scar light and acr do it better than the m16/m4, but not by much.

if they do issue a new carbine. i give it a year before troops are calling them pos like they do with every weapon platform the has been issued.

 

a milspec m16/m4-ar15 will be extremely reliable with proper unit up keep. dont get to caught up in the piston vs di drama both have pros and cons

[redwings9 5]

Griz is spot on, I can only speak to my experience using the M/16 platform and later a GAU 5 or what is commonly referred to as the CAR 15. On my first tour we operated in 2 corp along the ocean and there was plenty of sand probably not to the extent of what our current troops experiencing. Years ago the big issue that we experienced were mainly due to the magazines. We always loaded just 18 rounds and most of the "banana clips" were junk and those that had them dumped them. Great thing about the 5.56 is the amount of ammo you can hump, any body who ever humped an M-60 or belts for the pig will quickly tell you the 7.62 is great especially if you were in place. Rode a track the second tour in 1 "eye" corp and there is nothing like having an M113 to hump the ammo for you Unfortunately the rounds just clank around when hit and they were a B-40 (aka RPG) magnet.

 

PS I hate the AK and SKS only because of who used them As long as there are troops there will always be bitching about weapons,rations, boots you name it. JMOP

[ktm525xcatv 5]

Are you saying you would support me if I said we should issue .177 air guns? Because after all, you wouldnt want to stand in front of one right? (I know I wouldnt)

That is not even a real gun. It could kill but not at any kind of distance. Might have to be a shot to the eye.

[Old School 611]

That is not even a real gun. It could kill but not at any kind of distance. Might have to be a shot to the eye.

 

 

Never treat any gun without respect. A woman was shot in the chest with a 177 air rifle last year in West Milford and died.

[ktm525xcatv 5]

Never treat any gun without respect. A woman was shot in the chest with a 177 air rifle last year in West Milford and died.

I find that hard to belive you can get any kind of seroius penetration with a pellet gun.

You'll shoot your eye out kid.

[Old School 611]

I find that hard to belive you can get any kind of seroius penetration with a pellet gun.

You'll shoot your eye out kid.

 

 

No really, a woman died when she was accidentally shot with a high powered air rifle. The pellet slipped between her ribs and lodged in her heart. Dead dog! BTW her husband was drunk as a skunk and it happened in the kitchen,

 

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/passaic_county_woman_killed_by.html

 

Google this woman killed with air rifle and see all the hits you get about death by air rifle.

 

Not a good defense weapon but can be deadly.

 

And please don't show me your disrespect for anything that launches a projectile.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

That is not even a real gun. It could kill but not at any kind of distance. Might have to be a shot to the eye.

 

 

The question remains...would you volunteer to be shot by one? FYI, in NJ, they ARE guns

[Old School 611]

The question remains...would you volunteer to be shot by one? FYI, in NJ, they ARE guns

 

 

Wow Glenn,, did we hijack this thread or what...LOL

 

I'm with you buddy. I don't even like standing in front of airsoft or paintball.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Wow Glenn,, did we hijack this thread or what...LOL

 

I'm with you buddy. I don't even like standing in front of airsoft or paintball.

 

I'm with you there, I don't care if it's a toy gun that doesn't shoot anything, as I have taught my daughter from the time she was little, treat it as it was loaded. Over the top maybe, but I'd rather be safe then sorry

 

Harry

[ktm525xcatv 5]

The question remains...would you volunteer to be shot by one? FYI, in NJ, they ARE guns

Do you have to get a brady check for one?

It must be some kind of super special co2 one.

Your back has a lot of muscle and for a pellet only weighing a few grains still hard to belive.

Anyone have the specs for these pellet guns? Weight of pellet and velocity?

Heres the specs for 5.56X45 NATO 4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT 940 m/s (3,100 ft/s) 1,767 J (1,303 ft·lbf)

[Old School 611]

Do you have to get a brady check for one?

It must be some kind of super special co2 one.

Your back has a lot of muscle and for a pellet only weighing a few grains still hard to belive.

Anyone have the specs for these pellet guns? Weight of pellet and velocity?

Heres the specs for 5.56X45 NATO 4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT 940 m/s (3,100 ft/s) 1,767 J (1,303 ft·lbf)

 

Magnum pellet guns cal. .177 5.1 gr @ 1200fps is common.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Just to try to settle the issue.

 

NAA Arms Mini Revolver, 22 LR, 40 gr at 600 fps is 31.97 ft/lbs

 

Ruger Air Rifle, 5.1 gr (if that's correct) at 1500 fps (there are more powerful air guns) is 25.47 ft/lbs.

 

I'm not standing in front of that.

[ktm525xcatv 5]

Magnum pellet guns cal. .177 5.1 gr @ 1200fps is common.

Thats doesnt seem like much even compared to 22 LR....

38 gr (2.5 g) Copper-plated HP[1] 1,260 ft/s (380 m/s) 134 ft·lbf (182 J)

I can't see you taking a 100 or 200 yard shot with a pellet gun and killing someone.

[Old School 611]

Thats doesnt seem like much even compared to 22 LR....

38 gr (2.5 g) Copper-plated HP[1] 1,260 ft/s (380 m/s) 134 ft·lbf (182 J)

I can't see you taking a 100 or 200 yard shot with a pellet gun and killing someone.

 

 

You are a very silly boy and I'm not wasting my time with you anymore.

 

At one point I actually thought you were asking serious questions.

 

You fooled me... :thsmiley_deadhorse:

[Shane45 807]

Jesus am I the only one that had BB gun fights as a kid????? 2 pumps max! But if you forgot and pumped 2 more times... you were squeesing yer buddies skin to work the bb back out the hole 10 pumps would go over an inch deep in wood out of my crossman. And BB's were for penetration pellets were for accuracy.

[axeman_g 128]

Shane.. you are not the only one and the memory is enough to keep me away from Airsoft or Paintball. I had enough... sure was fun though. As well as stupid

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Jesus am I the only one that had BB gun fights as a kid????? 2 pumps max! But if you forgot and pumped 2 more times... you were squeesing yer buddies skin to work the bb back out the hole 10 pumps would go over an inch deep in wood out of my crossman. And BB's were for penetration pellets were for accuracy.

 

Shane.. you are not the only one and the memory is enough to keep me away from Airsoft or Paintball. I had enough... sure was fun though. As well as stupid

 

I did.... and I still play airsoft

 

it's a much larger, softer BB at lower FPS (We play 500 FPS max outdoors, 300 indoors).

[vjf915 456]

Paintball is a rough sport, definitely not for the weak. That's not a sarcastic statement. It takes balls to pop your head up or even go running into a barrage of .68 caliber rubber/plastic paintballs traveling at 200mph.

 

Also rough on the body. That's why I needed my knee cleaned out and still have a partial tear in my ACL.

 

ANYWAY, back to the discussion at hand

[dlouis 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s89hT3qiV-8&feature=related

[GRIZ 3,369]

ANYWAY, back to the discussion at hand

 

Good idea.

 

One issue that has not been addressed is it is much easier for the average troop to shoot the 5.56 vs the 7.62 NATO. Before I go further I need to acknowledge that the USMC has always taught Marines how to shoot their rifle. The fact is, in the Army anyway, most soldiers (including infantrymen) can't hit anything reliably past 200 meters. This goes back to at least WWII. Giving them a longer range cartridge like the 7.62 NATO is not going to change this. There has been efforts to rectify this with additional training in basic and training and equipping designated marksman. All in all, the 5.56 is a good caliber for general issue to the troops.

 

There is evidence going back some time that lighter is considered better.

 

The M1 carbine round has even worse ballistics than the 5.56 (about like a 357 in a carbine). Compare it to 30-06 M2 ball and its a pipsqueak cartridge. You have to remember it was adopted to replace the 1911 which, using FMJ rounds for both calibers, has better stopping power than the 30 carbine. But the 45 is much harder to hit with moreso if the range is over 25 meters or so (keep in mind we are talking the average troop). Just about anyone can put rounds from a 30 carbine center mass all day long. Use a hollowpoint or softpoint bullet and the 30 carbine is a totally different weapon.

 

Guys who have been there told me in WWII airborne units you had a choice of a M1 Garand or M1 carbine with the additonal choice of a M1 Thompson if you were an officer or NCO. If you look at photos of Operation Market Garden (invasion of Holland) you will see a large number of paratroopers carrying M1 carbines. I understand weapon selection can be very dependent on what your job is but all of these guys knew they had to fight as infantry when they hit the ground. A lot of these guys were on their 2nd combat jump and they still chose the carbine. It was the 4th or 5th combat jump for some 82nd guys that had jumped in Sicily and Italy.

 

Just something to consider.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Jesus am I the only one that had BB gun fights as a kid????? 2 pumps max! But if you forgot and pumped 2 more times... you were squeesing yer buddies skin to work the bb back out the hole 10 pumps would go over an inch deep in wood out of my crossman. And BB's were for penetration pellets were for accuracy.

 

LOL, Had a friend who got caught playing hookie one day, they were playing with their air rifles in the junkyard in Avenel, One of the kids father owned it but was out of town. Well he popped his head up, took one from about 10 yards away in the side of the head. They spent 10 minutes with a pair of needle nose pliers trying to dislodge the thing. I guess it was hard to hide the mark and hole in his head when his parents got home and got busted.

 

How we lived to make it this far in life whit what we did as kids is amazing when you think about it.

 

Harry