9 mm or .40 cal - - Why Get One Over The Other?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

1st side of the coin: As others have said, nothing wrong with a 9mm regardless of what you get, just try out the intended gun you are thinking about, what fits your hand and you are able to shoot well will be the best one for YOU.

 

Also the 9mm is also cheaper to shoot as well.

 

Now the other side of that coin is if you want to get into sport shooting, USPSA the 40 can get you into what called a Major and it's scored differently. And while I mention USPSA I would suggest you take a look on youtube and take a look at what it is, just got into it myself and am hooked, don't do as well as I would like being new but have a great time regardless.

 

Now if you stand that coin in it's side and look at it, get both.

 

Harry

[RecessedFilter 222]

My opinion, go with 9mm.

 

It's fun to shoot, the least expensive out of the 4 main calibers, and has very slight recoil good for follow up shots/double taps.

 

.40 is ok, but I find that .40 is a very snappy round. I feel that .45 and 9mm have less recoil than .40. .40 is also more expensive than 9mm, and if you were going to go with .40, you might as well go big or go home with a .45.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

40 sucks, go with 9mm.

 

http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

 

Seriously though, you dont have the speedy small/low recoil advantage of 9mm, you dont have the big hole advantage that 45 has, and on top of it all, you have alot of snap. why bother...

[Vlad G 345]

http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

 

That's a daft argument. Either the .40 is a terrible snappy round with to much recoil or it is a weak round for people who can't handle a mans gun. I don't recommend a .40 for new shooter but there are very good reasons for it.

[NJdiverTony 27]

40 sucks, go with 9mm.

 

http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

 

Seriously though, you dont have the speedy small/low recoil advantage of 9mm, you dont have the big hole advantage that 45 has, and on top of it all, you have alot of snap. why bother...

 

LOL, the story on that link is funny as hell...

 

I agree that the .40 sucks the big one. What I don't understand is why its use is so widespread in LE sector? I don't see how LEO's are benefited by a snappy round like the .40, as you'd think that they'd want something more controllable for follow up shots like the 9mm or the .45ACP.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

...What I don't understand is why its use is so widespread in LE sector?

 

 

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Ha, good ole internet! I will be getting my 96 INOX soon, I prefer the kick of the .40 myself. As far as cost for ammo, while the 9mm is slightly less expensive, there really isn't that much of a cost difference. If you want cheap shooting fun, get a .22. Buying ammo in bulk is certainly the way to go. My second handgun will be a S & W 686, probably 6" barrel. Can run .38 special or .357 magnum thru it, that should be fun. Besides, that is also the gun my wife wants for herself!

[Caine 147]

http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

 

One day, some pale doughy accountant picked up a 10mm and said, "If someone else would make this smaller and weaker, it wouldn't hurt my little hand as much when I shoot it." His transgender assistant said, "That a great idea! They could even make the guns smaller to fit in my evening bag", and the .40 was born.

 

reading that just made my day

[Sigman 41]

Hmmm...is .40 S&W really that snappy? Try a Sig 226 in .40 S&W and let me know what you think. Gun type makes a huge difference.

[stever 16]

Hmmm...is .40 S&W really that snappy? Try a Sig 226 in .40 S&W and let me know what you think. Gun type makes a huge difference.

 

 

I've heard how uncomfortable the 40 S&W is..Well I just bought my 4th Sig (p229 E2 in 40S&W + 357 sig barrel)..I'm used to 9mm/45 etc. and did not notice much difference in the 40..either the weight of the Sig tames the caliber or the 165 grain Lawman ammo is underpowered..

 

I've turned into a Sig Sauer addict. p238, p229 (9mm), p229 elite 40/357sig, p220 carry elite 45acp

[Vlad G 345]

You need a 239 too.

And yes .40 recoil is dependent on the firearm, like everything else. Put a defensive load in a compact or subcompact and it is going be rather stupid feeling. Put it a full size firearm and you won't care.

[NJdiverTony 27]

You need a 239 too.

And yes .40 recoil is dependent on the firearm, like everything else. Put a defensive load in a compact or subcompact and it is going be rather stupid feeling. Put it a full size firearm and you won't care.

 

I don't agree with your statement. I've shot a few different full sized .40 pistols (some were polymer and some were all metal) and they all equally sucked. The latest one I shot was a 1911, chambered for .40, and it was snappy as heck.

[Cylinder Head 22]

I don't like the .40 round, but not because it is "too snappy". I'm not a USPSA ninja, I don't run around an IDPA course (yet). I just think it's a bad compromise round. I understand that it has certain benefits for competition shooters (class and reloading) but those benefits evaporate when you hear glass breaking at night.

 

The two SWAT team leaders who taught my last Carbine course were discussing a shooting where the officers put 5 .40cal rounds into the suspect who made a full recovery. They have since switched to .45 cal Glock 21's.

 

Someone can chime in here about shot placement and how handgun rounds in general are inferior, that's just fine because you'd be correct. Effectiveness of a round is dependent on a few things; placement, penetration and expansion. In general you want 12-18" of penetration and you always want maximum expansion. 9mm is great for penetration (sometimes overpenetration) but can only expand so much. 45cal is great for expansion and gets enough penetration in the right loads to be very effective (Double Tap makes EXCELLENT defensive loads). 40 is middle-of-the-road in a case where you do not want to be middle of the road.

[Vlad G 345]

Disclaimer: I realize that I'm involved in the most terrible meme of gun forums, the "my favorite caliber is better then yours" silliness, but I haven't done it in a while, so I'm rolling with it.

 

Lets start with a picture:

 

 

All of them penetrate enough, so we won't argue about that.

 

Compare the wound cavities if 9mm to the .40. There is a NOTICEABLE difference, is it not?

Now compare the .40s to the .45. Do you see a difference? I do not.

 

Now lets do some math. Muzzle energy is 1/2mv^2 and if we want to represent that in ft.lbf we need to devide that by 7000x32.16 (or there abouts)

 

That means that for the loads on that drawing we end up with:

 

9mm 124gr load: 384ft.lbf

9mm 147gr load: 347ft.lbf

.40 165gr load: 424ft.lbf

.40 180gr load: 395ft.lbf

.45 230gr load: 391ft.lbf

 

Seeing how they penetrate about as much, and the .40 loads start with the highest amount of energy, it also means they deposit the highest amount of energy into the target. In reality that difference is pretty small however, they are all decent performers.

 

It is however pretty clear from the picture above that the .40 and .45 outperform the 9mm, at least in ballistic gel.

 

So why not use the .45 you ask? Well lets look at the size of cartridge. First of all, the width of the case means given an equal width magazine you will fit fewer rounds in it, no if or buts about it. You might even be willing to say thats ok by you, you would rather have fewer bigger rounds in the same size guns. But it isn't the same size gun, is it? The .45 round is about 1.26" long and the .40 is 1.13. That is a pretty significant difference in length, which translates to a difference in front to back dimensions of the magazine and which in turn translate to difference in the front to back dimensions of the fire arm. In short, you can fit a .40 in the frame of a 9mm, but you can't do the same with .45

 

Why do so many LE departments issue a .40? It isn't just the coolaid. They end up with terminal ballistics of a .45 in a gun sized for 9mm and that matters when you have to fit the hands of your officers. You also end up with significantly higher number of rounds in the same gun. You might lose 2 rounds from the capacity of a 9mm but you can still get 15 rounds in there instead of the 10 you would get with a much larger .45 based frame.

 

So I'll say it again: There is nothing wrong with 9mm, .40, or .45. Buy the one you like most, can afford, shoot best, fits the gun you like. They all work. However that doesn't mean that because YOU see no reason for a certain cartridge, someone else might not, or that LE departments are idiots of issuing a gun or caliber that you find unpleasant.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

 

The two SWAT team leaders who taught my last Carbine course were discussing a shooting where the officers put 5 .40cal rounds into the suspect who made a full recovery. They have since switched to .45 cal Glock 21's.

 

 

OK, maybe it's because I'm new to all this, but isn't it a good thing that the guy recovered? I mean, assuming they were able to stop him, and neutralize the threat. If I ever have to shoot someone, my hope would be that he would cease to be a threat; but if the BG recovered, I wouldn't feel bad about that.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

This is all great to know if I am ever attacked by ballistic gelatin

[Vlad G 345]

This is all great to know if I am ever attacked by ballistic gelatin

 

Well that true, but its the best we got unless someone volunteers to get shot and tell us which one hurts more. Any takers?

[siderman 1,138]

Remember The Blob from the 1950's?- it just may come back so thats all good info to know.

[ronhonda 86]

I don't like the .40 round, but not because it is "too snappy". I'm not a USPSA ninja, I don't run around an IDPA course (yet). I just think it's a bad compromise round. I understand that it has certain benefits for competition shooters (class and reloading) but those benefits evaporate when you hear glass breaking at night.

 

The two SWAT team leaders who taught my last Carbine course were discussing a shooting where the officers put 5 .40cal rounds into the suspect who made a full recovery. They have since switched to .45 cal Glock 21's.

 

Someone can chime in here about shot placement and how handgun rounds in general are inferior, that's just fine because you'd be correct. Effectiveness of a round is dependent on a few things; placement, penetration and expansion. In general you want 12-18" of penetration and you always want maximum expansion. 9mm is great for penetration (sometimes overpenetration) but can only expand so much. 45cal is great for expansion and gets enough penetration in the right loads to be very effective (Double Tap makes EXCELLENT defensive loads). 40 is middle-of-the-road in a case where you do not want to be middle of the road.

 

USPSA shooters are not Ninjas! (IDPA?)

These are real Ninjas!

http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

[Vlad G 345]

USPSA shooters are not Ninjas!

 

To late Ronny, they outed us. All those years of hiding are now for nothing. Yes, we are ninja! The guns are just for show, really we just throw stars faster then you can see (and make power factor with them), we just distract people with our blank firing .40cal guns so they don't see our elite throwing skills.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

OK, maybe it's because I'm new to all this, but isn't it a good thing that the guy recovered? I mean, assuming they were able to stop him, and neutralize the threat. If I ever have to shoot someone, my hope would be that he would cease to be a threat; but if the BG recovered, I wouldn't feel bad about that.

 

Dead men tell no tales (or file no law suits) my friend

[SSlav 14]

First of all I do not believe there is anything wrong with 9mm. If this state ever allows mere citizens to have CCW permits - I have a g-26 in my safe that I do practice with.

 

I do not want to offend anyone but I feel that if you think .40 is not a manageable round, then you are doing it wrong. There is a tendency of inexperienced pistol shooters (and I was an inexperienced pistol shooter until fairly recently despite owning a pistol since 1992) to lock up every muscle as tight as possible in an attempt to outmuscle the recoil. With that approach the weakest link in the chain fails - and that typically will be your hands/fingers as opposed to the larger muscles in your arms and your back and you will have the gun breaking your grip - forcing you to re-grip the gun after every shot. This is not happening because you are not holding the gun tight enough. It is happening because you are gripping too tight. You have to allow some "flex" into the system. That means that your back and arm muscles should be tensed only to the level necessary to hold the pistol up - no more and no less. You should not be tensing them in anticipation of recoil. Your elbows should not be locked. To start with you should also loosen up your wrists as well. This approach will let your body soak up the recoil and it will seem a lot less violent.

 

Aside from that it is all a matter of practice and getting used to it. When I switch from shooting minor in production to shooting major in limited (USPSA) - as I am doing now - It takes a few practice sessions to get comfortable with a fully loaded .40. Beyond that the difference is negligible. It takes a few extra 1/100s of a second for the follow up shot over the minor load.

[Caine 147]

USPSA shooters are not Ninjas! (IDPA?)

These are real Ninjas!

http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Remember The Blob from the 1950's?- it just may come back so thats all good info to know.

 

 

Remember it?!? I AM the Blob from the 1950's

[ronhonda 86]

To late Ronny, they outed us. All those years of hiding are now for nothing. Yes, we are ninja! The guns are just for show, really we just throw stars faster then you can see (and make power factor with them), we just distract people with our blank firing .40cal guns so they don't see our elite throwing skills.

 

Crap! We have some issues to discuss with Splinter at our next meeting.

[Cylinder Head 22]

Vlad,

There are way too many unknowns with regards to your picture. What are the bullets being tested? What are the loads and who manufactured them? For my defensive rounds I use a 230gr DoubleTap .45 which comes in at: 1010fps/ 521 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911. That's a huge improvement on whatever round was tested in that pic.

 

Old Glock Guy, to answer your question: no it was not a good thing that the BG recovered. They weren't shooting him to get him to comply with their wishes, they were shooting him to kill him. You do not shoot anyone with any other desired effect.

 

 

Disclaimer: I realize that I'm involved in the most terrible meme of gun forums, the "my favorite caliber is better then yours" silliness, but I haven't done it in a while, so I'm rolling with it.

 

Lets start with a picture:

 

 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

...they were shooting him to kill him. You do not shoot anyone with any other desired effect.

 

 

Gotta disagree with you there and you don't ever want that statement to follow you to court when you're the defendent. You shoot to neutralize a threat. Once there is no more threat, there should be no more shooting. Yes, you shoot CoM and yes, that may result in the death of the perpetrator, but the only thing a jury - or anyone else - should ever hear is that you shot to neutralize the threat.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Vlad G 345]

There are way too many unknowns with regards to your picture. What are the bullets being tested? What are the loads and who manufactured them? For my defensive rounds I use a 230gr DoubleTap .45 which comes in at: 1010fps/ 521 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911. That's a huge improvement on whatever round was tested in that pic.

 

That picture was stolen from here, where you can find a bunch more information relevant to this argument. Having shot some of the hot .45 loads that go over 1000fps I'll argue that they are no more pleasant or unpleasant then hot .40 rounds. You can also buy 165gr 1200fps or higher .40's (and that is out of 4" barrels) if you want to up the ante. I'm also curious if you chrono'ed those loads, I generally find that the published number play some interesting games with factual evidence. I believe the fps numbers in that picture are chrono numbers, not published numbers.

[Cylinder Head 22]

That picture was stolen from here, where you can find a bunch more information relevant to this argument. Having shot some of the hot .45 loads that go over 1000fps I'll argue that they are no more pleasant or unpleasant then hot .40 rounds. You can also buy 165gr 1200fps or higher .40's (and that is out of 4" barrels) if you want to up the ante. I'm also curious if you chrono'ed those loads, I generally find that the published number play some interesting games with factual evidence. I believe the fps numbers in that picture are chrono numbers, not published numbers.

 

I've read most of the threads in the Terminal Ballistics section of Doc Roberts' little corner of M4C. He doesn't mention which bullets and loads are used for that picture.

 

Double Tap loads have been tested repeatedly, they live up to the manufacturer claims.

[Vlad G 345]

Double Tap loads have been tested repeatedly, they live up to the manufacturer claims.

 

Never claimed they didn't, I was just pointing out that if you compare their .40 loads, you would notice that those are also much hotter then many other factory loads so we need to compare apples to apples