ak74's , who has what? where did you get it?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I agree. The only reason im ranting here is not because I think one is better than the other. It is just because vlad informs people that a basic saiga conversion is the same thing as an arsenal but cheaper.

 

I have read a great many comments that the refinish job on arsenal guns is less than great.. and that is the most hugely different jump between what your average gun enthusiast could do...

 

the point I have made has always been the same.. and that is this...

 

instead of paying someone $700.. $800.. $900.. for a rifle that they built.. to their specs.. only so you can bring it home and spend another.. $100.. $200.. accessorizing it as you see fit (furniture, etc..)it makes more sense (to me) to buy a $400 rifle and do everything yourself.. the benefit being that you end up with EXACTLY what YOU want... and you learn to work on the gun... does that basic "$400 conversion" include parts? it doesn't talk about what parts are included.. what you get.. etc.. is the $400 JUST labor? it doesn't look like that $400 option even touches the gas block or tube.. I would like to know EXACTLY what you get for $400..

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

I have read a great many comments that the refinish job on arsenal guns is less than great.. and that is the most hugely different jump between what your average gun enthusiast could do...

 

the point I have made has always been the same.. and that is this...

 

instead of paying someone $700.. $800.. $900.. for a rifle that they built.. to their specs.. only so you can bring it home and spend another.. $100.. $200.. accessorizing it as you see fit (furniture, etc..)it makes more sense (to me) to buy a $400 rifle and do everything yourself.. the benefit being that you end up with EXACTLY what YOU want... and you learn to work on the gun... does that basic "$400 conversion" include parts? it doesn't talk about what parts are included.. what you get.. etc.. is the $400 JUST labor? it doesn't look like that $400 option even touches the gas block or tube.. I would like to know EXACTLY what you get for $400..

 

well, I never said that was a great deal. im just talking about the comments you make on how you can build the "same thing" as an arsenal for $100 less

[Dan 177]

Getting back to Arsenal v Saiga DIY. I agree with Glenn that it is not an apples-apples thing unless you go through with the full process of installing the gas block/sight with the rod holder, pinning on the lower handguard retainer, threading the barrel and installing/pinning a brake.

 

As for Rifle Dynamics, I'm not certain on the complete details. But even with labor and refinishing its a decent price in my book, again if you want the refinish. Do not compare the RD finish with the old Arsenal finish that people complain about, two different things.

[vladtepes 1,060]

well, I never said that was a great deal. im just talking about the comments you make on how you can build the "same thing" as an arsenal for $100 less

 

 

to keep the entire project in perspective... I still believe I could.. the guns that I have worked on were worked out as I or the owner wanted them.. the attempt was not to mimic an arsenal build.. the intend was to put together the exact rifle the user wanted.. so if you happen to want a rifle with the exact accessories that an arsenal happens to come with.. then maybe it is a better deal? but that doesn't account for the hit or miss refinish stories that are abundant on the internet.. I guess after reading things like that they have hit or miss refinishing is enough to make me question a $900 rifle.. at the end of the day if you are comparing an Arsenal converted saiga.. or one you did in your garage.. you are really not comparing much that is different.. which parts that you work on are going to have ANY bearing on operation? the fire control group.. as long as the fire control group is installed correctly, and the magazine issue is dealt with.. when it comes to actually USING the weapon.. as in shooting.. under all that furniture.. or paint.. or whatever.. they are BOTH still Saigas.. and therefore are going to shoot pretty similar..

 

if you know what you are doing and convert a Saiga..

and if you buy a converted arsenal saiga...

 

besides cosmetics.. there is really not a whole lot of difference.. and again that is the biggest issue I have with them.... keep in mind I have been saying the same thing for years.. it seems like as the cost of Saigas increases... and more builders show up.. then the financial gap between bought and built DOES close up a lot.. I purchased at least one Saiga for $250... so there was a time where arsenal VS home brew was a HUGE difference..

 

but I stand by what I said.. I just don't see the advantage in spending the money.. maybe others will.. and if they do.. more power to them, this is a free country (or at least I think it is still).. so they are permitted to spend as they please..

 

at the end of the day can you honestly say there would be a huge operator end difference between a Saiga and arsenal saiga providing the home done one wasn't butchered.. like can you honestly say the lack of cleaning rod is a deal breaker from a usability standpoint? and I am not trying to nit pick... just saying that's all..

[vladtepes 1,060]

Getting back to Arsenal v Saiga DIY. I agree with Glenn that it is not an apples-apples thing unless you go through with the full process of installing the gas block/sight with the rod holder, pinning on the lower handguard retainer, threading the barrel and installing/pinning a brake.

 

pin on lower handguard retainer? huh?

 

 

As for Rifle Dynamics, I'm not certain on the complete details. But even with labor and refinishing its a decent price in my book, again if you want the refinish. Do not compare the RD finish with the old Arsenal finish that people complain about, two different things.

 

it is a decent deal.. IF they are supplying all the parts.. if that is JUST a labor price.. then it could get pretty costly when you factor in parts..

[chris327 30]

Just wondering, the chrome lined barrel I know is better. But could you get a chrome lined barrel in any ak? Also does the chrome lined barrel make it so you don't need to clean it imediately after use? My impression with the corrosive ammo its needs immediate cleaning or is it just that it needs to be cleaned within a day or 2?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Just wondering, the chrome lined barrel I know is better. But could you get a chrome lined barrel in any ak? Also does the chrome lined barrel make it so you don't need to clean it imediately after use? My impression with the corrosive ammo its needs immediate cleaning or is it just that it needs to be cleaned within a day or 2?

 

 

it is my understanding that a chrome lined barrel is more resistant to adverse conditions such as those created by corrosive/dirty ammunition.. I do not clean my Saiga chambered in 7.62x39 very often.. I do not clean it often because I am lazy and confident that the durability of the rifle will allow it to continue to be reliable even if it is a little abused.. although I will say that is probably not a good habit to be in..

 

I am not sure what other variants have chrome lined barrels..

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

to keep the entire project in perspective... I still believe I could.. the guns that I have worked on were worked out as I or the owner wanted them.. the attempt was not to mimic an arsenal build.. Right, but you always compare the price to arsenal. It would be like saying a geo metro is better than a BMW exclusivly because it is less money. Apples and oranges.

 

.. I guess after reading things like that they have hit or miss refinishing is enough to make me question a $900 rifle.. I dont know where you are getting ripped off, you can get a base model arsenal in 7.62x39 for $765

 

at the end of the day if you are comparing an Arsenal converted saiga.. or one you did in your garage.. you are really not comparing much that is different.. which parts that you work on are going to have ANY bearing on operation? the fire control group.. as long as the fire control group is installed correctly, and the magazine issue is dealt with.. when it comes to actually USING the weapon.. as in shooting.. under all that furniture.. or paint.. or whatever.. they are BOTH still Saigas.. and therefore are going to shoot pretty similar.. Of course they will. and a $2k AK built on original russian parts will also shoot the same. That isnt really the point. There is more money hanging off an arsenal gun. And if you dont want the extra authenticity, then you dont have to buy it and you can convert a saiga which will not be the same.

 

if you know what you are doing and convert a Saiga..

and if you buy a converted arsenal saiga...

besides cosmetics.. there is really not a whole lot of difference.. and again that is the biggest issue I have with them.... keep in mind I have been saying the same thing for years.. it seems like as the cost of Saigas increases... and more builders show up.. then the financial gap between bought and built DOES close up a lot.. I purchased at least one Saiga for $250... so there was a time where arsenal VS home brew was a HUGE difference.. Yes, but saigas arent $250 anymore. Also, mechanically theres no difference between a stock saiga and a converted one either.

 

 

but I stand by what I said.. I just don't see the advantage in spending the money.. maybe others will.. and if they do.. more power to them, this is a free country (or at least I think it is still).. so they are permitted to spend as they please.. amen! (to the last part)

 

at the end of the day can you honestly say there would be a huge operator end difference between a Saiga and arsenal saiga providing the home done one wasn't butchered.. like can you honestly say the lack of cleaning rod is a deal breaker from a usability standpoint? and I am not trying to nit pick... just saying that's all..

[vjf915 456]

I agree. The only reason im ranting here is not because I think one is better than the other. It is just because vlad informs people that a basic saiga conversion is the same thing as an arsenal but cheaper.

Glenn, while I completely understand where you are coming from.....I think you have still yet to answer his one question. What exactly does an Arsenal have that one of his converted Saiga's do not? Is it that the Arsenal is a more accurate clone of a TRUE AK47 than a converted Saiga, or does the rifle actually perform better? If it is simply how close the rifle is to true form, I personally don't care. If I wanted a TRUE AK47, I would move out of NJ and buy one. I didn't. I wanted a battle accurate rifle that would run extremely reliably. Those requirements were met, and I got EXACTLY what I wanted, for less, and I know the rifle inside and out.

 

You are COMPLETELY right, the Saiga conversion is not for everybody. It is not the end all, be all rifle. But for certain situations, it IS just about the best option.

[Dan 177]

pin on lower handguard retainer? huh?

 

The lower handguard retainer. The OEM type needs to be pressed on from my understanding. There are also aftermarket screw on types.

Linky

[vladtepes 1,060]

Yes, but saigas arent $250 anymore. Also, mechanically theres no difference between a stock saiga and a converted one either.

 

 

I suggest that you disassemble and also shoot a factory Saiga before making that comment..

 

a factory Saiga is nothing like a converted one OR an AK in use OR form..

 

The first major difference (granted is one of opinion..) but the gun will without question balance better with a pistol grip VS monte carlo stock.. now if this were sitting on a bench shooting at paper.. taking your time.. the difference would likely not be noticed.. but carrying.. transitioning to sidearm.. shooting and moving.. IMO (and the opinions of most) are far easier with a PG equipped AK VS the long awkward monte carlo stock system..

 

The second major difference is far more important.. the factory Saiga FCG is literally garbage.. to get the trigger to where it is from the factory (pre conversion)it is linked to this god awful trigger system linkage.. that uses a bunch of ridiculous parts to make the trigger work.. this equates to an awful experience for the shooter.. most converted Saigas I have been a part of get the Tapco G2.. some would even say that is better than the arsenal trigger.. the Tapco G2 is extremely smooth when compared to the factory Saiga FCG OR some of the arsenal triggers.. the reason that I say some is because I read some users who have arsenal guns that have FCGs that they really don't care for.. they complain there is like a ledge that creates this awkward unintentional "2nd stage" prior to firing.. I have not had any first hand experience examining the arsenal trigger in detail so I really could not say.. but MOST people like the G2...

 

then there are little things.. like chrome lined barrels.. Saigas have them.. some other AKs don't.. do all arsenals? actually it doesn't even matter.. because here is the biggest point..

 

I was never implying that people should not buy arsenal guns.. I really don't care what anyone does.. that is entirely up to them.. I was simply stating that I am pretty confident that with less money.. you can piece together a gun that caters to exactly what you want.. furniture.. fire control group.. muzzle device.. etc.. and be less out the door than an arsenal... and if YOU do the work, take your time, look for deals.. it WILL be cheaper just about every time..

 

granted if you built the gun exactly out to arsenal spec it would likely be around $700.. with the brake and all, depending on the furniture you choose... labor is on you of course... the thing that you seem stuck on is I am saying you can build an arsenal gun yourself for less.. because that is NOT true I guess.. because the furniture and all might be different..

 

so maybe this statement is better...

 

for less than you would pay for an arsenal.. you could build out a Saiga and end up with a rifle that is just as good when considering actual use and application..

[vladtepes 1,060]

The lower handguard retainer. The OEM type needs to be pressed on from my understanding. There are also aftermarket screw on types.

Linky

 

yes I am totally aware.. you lost me when you told me it had to be pinned on...

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

...What exactly does an Arsenal have that one of his converted Saiga's do not? ...

 

Already covered that. Cleaning rod, gas block with lug, FSB with 24mm threads, zigzag brake, true HG retainer, more labor

 

 

I can agree with this

 

for less than you would pay for an arsenal.. you could build out a Saiga and end up with a rifle that is just as good when considering actual use and application..

[vladtepes 1,060]

Already covered that. Cleaning rod, gas block with lug cleaning rod hole, FSB with 24mm threads, zigzag brake, true HG retainer,

 

I'll take the better FCG over a brake..

 

but in all seriousness.. your concern seems to revolve around replicating the original where as my concern tends to just be making a rifle that fits my need and use.. but hey I can take criticism.. so really no hard feelings.. I guess we agree where we agree.. and agree to disagree where we dont..

[vjf915 456]

Already covered that. Cleaning rod, gas block with lug, FSB with 24mm threads, zigzag brake, true HG retainer, more labor

And if those were pertinent pieces to a fully functional, reliable rifle, it would be understandable. I'm not that big of a guy, and my converted Saiga 7.62 without a brake, and with a metal butt pad was manageable...therefore the brake doesn't do anything for me. True handguard retainer doesn't either, as I have a quad rail on my rifle. The gas block with a bayonet lug do nothing, since I live in this god-forsaken state, just like the threads. Therefore, to me at least, the only thing of actual use would be the cleaning rod. However....as far as I know that wouldn't work with my quad rail as well.

 

Glenn, I'm not saying you are wrong at all. You have a valid point that would provide important information for certain people. For myself, most of those parts wouldn't work or aren't necessary for what I wanted. I wanted a battle accurate rifle that would be reliable. I got that out of my converted Saiga, with all the furniture I wanted, AND spent less than I would on an Arsenal.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Vlad, no hard feelings back.

 

You and vic both have valid points how all the additional stuff doesnt really do much for function. My nitpick was purely for comparisons sake of value. There is more $$ in an arsenal (wether its wanted, useful, useless....etc) therfore cannot be compared dollar to dollar

 

also it is no secret that im a sucker for authenticity

[vjf915 456]

Vlad, no hard feelings back.

 

You and vic both have valid points how all the additional stuff doesnt really do much for function. My nitpick was purely for comparisons sake of value. There is more $$ in an arsenal (wether its wanted, useful, useless....etc) therfore cannot be compared dollar to dollar

 

also it is no secret that im a sucker for authenticity

Right. I don't think any of us was trying to say the other was WRONG, or at least I wasn't. There ARE benefits to an Arsenal. Nothing wrong with wanting something to be authentic. I'm not nearly as much of a stickler for authenticity, so the Saiga definitely fit my needs much more....especially since I have a low budget.

[vladtepes 1,060]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

also it is no secret that im a sucker for authenticity

 

the last part (in red) I think is the reason we even had this conversation.. LOL

[vjf915 456]

Anthony......shut up and get the rules changed!!

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

the last part (in red) I think is the reason we even had this conversation.. LOL

 

 

no...it was $$$ value...ugh

 

[RecessedFilter 222]

Oh man, hahaha...

[intercooler 41]

hey Dan, staying on subject here, when do you anticipate getting your CAI?

[chris327 30]

I just ordered my cai this morning. Shiping to mastadon and he is going to do the work. Im hoping to have it in my hands the end of the week.

[Dan 177]

hey Dan, staying on subject here, when do you anticipate getting your CAI?

 

It shipped on Thursday. JG doesn't give tracking #'s, only to the FFL. I'm thinking it will arrive at Paul's by the end of this week. He is going to shave the bayonet lug so it is just a lug without the bayonetting ability.. this way i can keep the cleaning rod in place.

 

I'm so curious at this point. I'm anticipating it being a pile of poop, falling apart after its first shot. I really hope that its not of course.

[chris327 30]

I read alot of good stuff about them so I just ordered it. Monday I will order my mags. And I ordered 2 tins of ammo from sportsman center for 309.

[intercooler 41]

my arsenal is gonna be there this week too...(at mastodon)

[Dan 177]

I read alot of good stuff about them so I just ordered it. Monday I will order my mags. And I ordered 2 tins of ammo from sportsman center for 309.

 

I see you couldn't wait for my review Chris. I know the feeling.

 

BTW, Might be too late, but Aim has the best deal going for 5.45, $129 per 1080 tin when you order 2 or more. Link

[chris327 30]

But what is shipping? There is a free shipping code for sportsman center. And yeai couldn't wait. I wanna use it next weekend hopefully.

[Dan 177]

Ah with shipping, its the same. Good deal with free shipping.

[totalabuse 27]

These are both professionally built 74's as correct as legally allowed.