Wife asked a good question

[papercutninja 24]

Mcbethr:

 

Your post is full of logic and reasoning, a well as facts and figures to reinforce your point. Please leave now, as none of these points are appropriate for the Internet. Only frothing at the mouth paranoia is allowed. Thanks.

[vjf915 456]

I simply don't think that there is enough gun culture in this state to make the possession of weapons a concern.

There is definitely enough anti-gun culture to make it a concern though :thsmiley_deadhorse:

Does anybody know what info is given during the NICS call by the transferor? Any information regarding the transfer like Make, Model, Serial, etc.?

Even if that information is given, simply being approved does not mean that the firearm was actually purchased.

[Melgamatic 66]

Now let's look at the New Jersey National Guard. This is a force of roughly 9000 soldiers. Let's do the same thing that we did to the police and cut them by 90% because some might still be digging out or chose not to show up. Now we have 8100 soldiers.

 

In Katrina, the videos of NatGuard soldiers on the firearms confiscation teams were from multiple states. There was a TV interview of a Sgt from the Oklahoma Nat Guard that I recall particularly.

[I saw nothing 3]

How will you identify him in the hoarde? Perhaps his NJGF ID badge...

 

Nope... by "the one" asking the police when his FID and permits will be ready for pick up.

[bbk 188]

mcbethr, nice analysis. You're forgetting about Directive 79 though, which, in a sense, could simplify the whole process you drew out. Of course its ultimately based on discretion of the emergency coordinator, but I'm sure it would be along the lines of, "Leave your **** at home." I agree that there are many more caveats in regards to Directive 79, but, to me, it does dispel some of the assumptions.

 

As somebody else pointed out, understand that sure, the NJ NG would be mobilized, but in a large scale event-- so could other NG units (say from NY or PA), and definitely a few active duty units. In the wake up Katrina, there were boots on the ground of people from active duty units that I knew personally in the NOLA area within a handful of hours (I can't specify). They weren't necessarily doing the grunt work that the 82nd did in the wake of Katrina, or what the guys from Benning are doing in the Carolinas right now (due to the storms). Instead they were tasked with more specific parameters. So, my point being is that the number of troops that could be present would rise exponentially in direct correlation of the severity of the situation. Given, if the event is widespread (say multiple states are involved and require assistance), then the number of troops available would dip.

[BigBlueQ 7]

Answer the door. "Sorry sir, I just gave them all over to the LAST group of officers who were looking for them. They SEEMED official enough."

[halbautomatisch 60]

The COE is retained by the transferor pursuant to NJSA 2C:58-3b and a copy is retained by the buyer. Does anybody know what info is given during the NICS call by the transferor? Any information regarding the transfer like Make, Model, Serial, etc.?

Usually the only gun info given to the NJSP during NICS is if it's a handgun, long gun, both or other (stripped receiver, etc.) that is being purchased. Only recently is handgun make and serial # being divulged if you are buying multiple handguns on an exemption, this is done to ensure OGAM compliance.

 

It doesn't matter if you buy a long gun in state or out, "they" don't know specifically what you're buying or how many you're buying on a NICS check. If you do a FTF sale with a non dealer they wouldn't even know the transaction occurred.

[I saw nothing 3]

So if I go into say PA... can I simply go in and buy a long gun? What specific paperwork do I need? Do I simply show my license and FID card and walk out the store?

[NorthernYankee 94]

So if I go into say PA... can I simply go in and buy a long gun? What specific paperwork do I need? Do I simply show my license and FID card and walk out the store?

 

Yup, pretty much. Most shops in PA that are close to the NJ border will have the COE buts its a good idea to take a copy with you.

[Malsua 1,422]

Do I simply show my license and FID card and walk out the store?

 

They have you fill out an additional form but yes, you will need your Purchaser ID and your license.

 

NJ legal firearms only.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

They have you fill out an additional form

 

 

This must be the gun shop that you are patronizing. The only forms needed to complete a long gun transaction for a NJ resident in another state are the 4473 and the COE. If the transaction state requires another form, then yes you must fill that out also, but we were talking about PA and they do not require any additional forms for a complete long gun. As was said, you do need your FPID and the gun has to be NJ compliant. All the laws of both states must be complied with.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[I saw nothing 3]

This must be the gun shop that you are patronizing. The only forms needed to complete a long gun transaction for a NJ resident in another state are the 4473 and the COE. If the transaction state requires another form, then yes you must fill that out also, but we were talking about PA and they do not require any additional forms for a complete long gun. As was said, you do need your FPID and the gun has to be NJ compliant. All the laws of both states must be complied with.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Are those forms submitted to the state of NJ? Do those forms say what was purchased? Or is that only for gun shop owner. I thought long gun forms that are purchased in NJ only stay with the gun shop?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Are those forms submitted to the state of NJ? Do those forms say what was purchased? Or is that only for gun shop owner. I thought long gun forms that are purchased in NJ only stay with the gun shop?

 

 

The 4473 is a federal form and is retained by the FFL, until they go out of business, at which time they go to the BATFE.

 

The COE is a NJ form and one copy stays with the FFL and the other goes to the buyer.

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

[KpdPipes 388]

I didn't claim it would be easy or necessarily successful. I'm well aware that those people are still fighting and will likely never see adequate justice for what was done. I simply wanted to make it clear that my strategy was to have a plan B for self defense, avoid actually fighting with the police over the matter [which would NOT end with me keeping my guns or my freedom if the confiscations are already under way], but fight like Hell to right the wrong in a setting where the police won't have the authority to simply do as they please [court].

 

The Majority of firearms taken in New Orleans were NOT From armed Citizens. YES there were some taken from people. the Majority of those guns that you se epictures of were turned over to NOPD because they were in unsecured/unsecurable homes in the flood zone that was frankly a haven for looters after dark. Like everything else though I find it amusing how the "Media" gets THIS story right because it fits someone's worldview..but they are idiots when it comes to every other gun story. For the record, NJ officers involved in the Katrina Relief took ONE firearm off of an individual. He was drunk, and had been in a bar fight, gone home, got his handgun, and went back looking for the Winner of the fight, waving it around, just as our people were returning past the bar from a nighttime Anti-looter sweep through our operational Area. While other firearms were secured by NJ officers, they were documented in the same way that we document othe property and turned over to the Louisiana State Patrol. NOT NOPD. There were a bunch of mistakes made, incredibly BAD ones..Some of which are finally being fixed through the courts .but that situation was not as widespread or as bad as some would make it out to be.

[Sixtytwo327 14]

Hey all – new to NJGF but not to firearms.

 

Great topic; to the OP question, you could always buy a couple of curio & relic or non-functioning firearms. In a TSHTF scenario, with roving bands of armed government agents (the same agents that can’t even spell my name right on my car title) coming to confiscate your guns, I’d bet that (1) they probably wouldn’t have time to examine every firearm and tell the difference (remember this is a WHOLE LOT of guns we’d be talking about). (2) They wouldn't have access to the NJ firearms ownership database (computers would be down, etc.) And (3) would probably be more scared than you; I mean, would YOU go door to door trying to confiscate firearms? Not me.

 

I wanted to chime in because, in my own experience, I did relief work in Katrina shortly after the flood, and I can verify firsthand the families I talked to and stayed with had no problems taking their firearms with their possessions when they evacuated. What they said was, the only people having firearms confiscated were people who had illegal guns or were looting shops, and who already ignored multiple evacuation orders, or were operating outside of the curfew. In short, they said, you had to be pretty stupid and be someplace you had absolutely no right or business to be… I saw and talked to a lot of National Guard – they were completely professional and cool about it all. Weird experience, btw.

[KpdPipes 388]

Hey all – new to NJGF but not to firearms.

 

Great topic; to the OP question, you could always buy a couple of curio & relic or non-functioning firearms. In a TSHTF scenario, with roving bands of armed government agents (the same agents that can’t even spell my name right on my car title) coming to confiscate your guns, I’d bet that (1) they probably wouldn’t have time to examine every firearm and tell the difference (remember this is a WHOLE LOT of guns we’d be talking about). (2) They wouldn't have access to the NJ firearms ownership database (computers would be down, etc.) And (3) would probably be more scared than you; I mean, would YOU go door to door trying to confiscate firearms? Not me.

 

I wanted to chime in because, in my own experience, I did relief work in Katrina shortly after the flood, and I can verify firsthand the families I talked to and stayed with had no problems taking their firearms with their possessions when they evacuated. What they said was, the only people having firearms confiscated were people who had illegal guns or were looting shops, and who already ignored multiple evacuation orders, or were operating outside of the curfew. In short, they said, you had to be pretty stupid and be someplace you had absolutely no right or business to be… I saw and talked to a lot of National Guard – they were completely professional and cool about it all. Weird experience, btw.

 

We had half a dozen people who were SHIP (SHeltering In Place) in our AO, abotu the extent of our interaction with them was making suew when we saw that that they ahd enough food and potable water, and if there was anything we could get them. we NEVER asked if they had any firearms.

[Downr@nge 22]

Simple. If they ask, all my guns are at the gunsmith being repaired. And that's only if I answer the door.

[Joelk 61]

the Majority of those guns that you se epictures of were turned over to NOPD because they were in unsecured/unsecurable homes in the flood zone that was frankly a haven for looters after dark.

 

Given that the above statement is correct, and I have no reason to doubt you, who turned the guns over to the NOPD, and what constitutes an "unsecured/unsecurable home". Were the police breaking into every home in the evacuation area? Would any evacuated home, even if the firearms are safely stored, such as in a safe, be considered unsecured in the evacuated area?

[Jon 264]

Given that the above statement is correct, and I have no reason to doubt you, who turned the guns over to the NOPD, and what constitutes an "unsecured/unsecurable home". Were the police breaking into every home in the evacuation area? Would any evacuated home, even if the firearms are safely stored, such as in a safe, be considered unsecured in the evacuated area?

 

The guns were turned over to NOPD for safekeeping by their owners.

[Joelk 61]

The guns were turned over to NOPD for safekeeping by their owners.

 

I hate to nitpick, but I spent too many years in school to ignore what is written. If you look at the quote:

the Majority of those guns that you se epictures of were turned over to NOPD because they were in unsecured/unsecurable homes in the flood zone that was frankly a haven for looters after dark.

Therefore the guns could not have been turned in by their owners, as they were "in unsecured/unsecurable homes". If the owners had turned them in, they would have been removed by the owners when they left their homes, and never could have been "in unsecured/unsecurable homes". I don't mean to be a pain in the a**, but KpdPipes statement has piqued my curiosity.

 

Secondly, does anyone think that residents of New Orleans, knowing the stellar reputation of their PD, would ever voluntarily turn their guns "over to NOPD for safekeeping"

[Jon 264]

I hate to nitpick, but I spent too many years in school to ignore what is written. If you look at the quote:

 

Therefore the guns could not have been turned in by their owners, as they were "in unsecured/unsecurable homes". If the owners had turned them in, they would have been removed by the owners when they left their homes, and never could have been "in unsecured/unsecurable homes". I don't mean to be a pain in the a**, but KpdPipes statement has piqued my curiosity.

 

Secondly, does anyone think that residents of New Orleans, knowing the stellar reputation of their PD, would ever voluntarily turn their guns "over to NOPD for safekeeping"

 

Ok, so the PD saw an unsecured/unsecurable residence. They walk inside and find guns and no residents. Knowing looters are in the area, they take the guns back to the PD for safekeeping. All you're doing right now is as you said, nitpicking. Are you this paranoid in person or do you only wear your tinfoil hat while sitting at your computer?

[Joelk 61]

Ok, so the PD saw an unsecured/unsecurable residence. They walk inside and find guns and no residents. Knowing looters are in the area, they take the guns back to the PD for safekeeping. All you're doing right now is as you said, nitpicking. Are you this paranoid in person or do you only wear your tinfoil hat while sitting at your computer?

jOn, I was really looking for KpdPipes opinion, but if you are bored enough to keep arguing I am going to remind you of the quote:

the Majority of those guns that you se epictures of were turned over to NOPD because they were in unsecured/unsecurable homes in the flood zone that was frankly a haven for looters after dark.

KpfPipes said the guns were "turned over to NOPD" which does not fit with your theory that the NO"PD saw an unsecured/unsecurable residence. They walk inside and find guns and no residents. Knowing looters are in the area, they take the guns back to the PD for safekeeping."

 

This leaves me with my initial question of " who turned the guns over to the NOPD, and what constitutes an "unsecured/unsecurable home". Were the police breaking into every home in the evacuation area? Would any evacuated home, even if the firearms are safely stored, such as in a safe, be considered unsecured in the evacuated area?"

 

Are you this paranoid in person or do you only wear your tinfoil hat while sitting at your computer?

 

No, I was just bored and found KpdPipes statement interesting, and thought I would ask if he would clarify it. When you started arguing I could not resist replying to your creative hypotheticals. As it is rather late I am going to go to bed (on my tinfoil pillow), and rejoin this discussion tomorrow.

[Jon 264]

If you really feel that the Police will be "breaking into every home in the evacuation area" arguing with you is pointless. Anyone who feels this is a possibility is beyond help.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Ok, so the PD saw an unsecured/unsecurable residence. They walk inside and find guns and no residents. Knowing looters are in the area, they take the guns back to the PD for safekeeping. All you're doing right now is as you said, nitpicking. Are you this paranoid in person or do you only wear your tinfoil hat while sitting at your computer?

 

So the cops Looted the place to ge the good stuff first?? :)

 

Harry

[Joelk 61]

So the cops Looted the place to ge the good stuff first?? :)

 

Harry

 

Only the shoes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHcajIRcBvA&feature=player_detailpage

[KpdPipes 388]

Given that the above statement is correct, and I have no reason to doubt you, who turned the guns over to the NOPD, and what constitutes an "unsecured/unsecurable home". Were the police breaking into every home in the evacuation area? Would any evacuated home, even if the firearms are safely stored, such as in a safe, be considered unsecured in the evacuated area?

 

 

#1 Gunshop owners, (including Wal-mart) dumped off their stock at NOPD when the severity of the storm hit and they got the potential Evac notices, as did some citizens when they heard how bad the potential was. As did many people and business outside of the City itself. Now the fact that NOPD did not secure those firearms in an appropriate manner is again..Another Problem

 

#2 WE (NJ LEAD Officers) dealt solely with La State Patrol, not NOPD..everything that we siezed was documented as to the address, and potential owners according to whatever documentation we found in the homes.

 

#3 Yes in the district we were assigned to, which had been under water at one point to head-high. EVERY Structure was entered, and inspected. First only the unsecured ones, or ones we could determine held remains, then again by members of Urban Search and Rescue with us providing security. I forget the total number of bodies we recovered. We also recovered pets that had been left behind and turned them over to ASPCA volunteers who were also workign the area. The ONLY things we recovered were UNSECURED, as in kaying out in the open, we DID NOT go through drawers or closets, and no doubt we missed a lot of stuff. but our Primary purpose was to A: Assist any residents who chose to stay, and B: Recover any Bodies.

 

#4 I can speak ONLY For what WE did in our area of the 9th district. We had a roughly 10 X 20 block area of Mixed Residential and Commercial that was our responsibility. In the 2 weeks I was there pesonally we covered about 1/3 of that, mainly because we had to retrace our steps twice, as once the SAR folks got on scene we had to enter every structure, where first time wround we only entered those i spoke of before. We also,l on a Rotating basis, worked with LSP Answering the thousands of 911 calls in the City and Suburbs that had happened since the storm. 99% of which were of course now abandoned, but it still had to be done.

[KpdPipes 388]

If you really feel that the Police will be "breaking into every home in the evacuation area" arguing with you is pointless. Anyone who feels this is a possibility is beyond help.

 

he's essentially correct....

[Anselmo 87]

Thank you for your first hand, on the ground, factual summaries.

[KpdPipes 388]

So the cops Looted the place to ge the good stuff first?? :)

 

Harry

 

As long as you are not referring to the Officers from NJ, Quite Possible, I dont know what kind of documentation anyone else did, or who anyone else answered to.

 

We left our "Home" in Kenner at around 0600 every morning, went to the NJSP Command Center in Jefferson, where we got our Briefing, and any Intel from the night before. Then we went into the City to our staging point, and each team split up from there to our individual patrol areas along with whichever Urban SAR group we were assigned, as well as National Guard who transported us in their trucks, and provided additional security (All 5 rounds per man worth ). We wotked straigh tthrough stopping to eat (usually MRE's) on the go until about 5 or so, when we loaded back up and went to the Staging area, where the NJ Fire Guys deconned us before getting back in our vehicles, goung out to Jefferson for Debriefing, and then back "Home" to Kenner. NJ national guard had Dont a huge amount of work setting up GPM's for us and putting Cots together. The City of Kenner gave us their middle School gymnasium to live in, along with the NJSP, Fire Personnel and the SAR folks from NJ. My particular team which was comprised of guys from Essex and Hudson Counties worked straight through from the time we arrived to the day before we left. We drove up to Baton Rouge for dinner one afternoon, then worked through that night. Apparently we as the first group must have done TOO much, because one of the subsequent groups managed to have enough free time to get themselves in trouble for doing stupid stuff (Hoboken PD SWAT).

[Joelk 61]

Thank you for your first hand, on the ground, factual summaries.

 

Yes, thank you KpdPipes, I appreciate your response, and first hand information.