Open Carry Phily Incident Charges Filed

[axeman_g 128]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110516_Man_who_clashed_with_cops_over_legal_gun_was_also_armed_with_audio_recorder.html

 

Seems as if the Philly ADA has his panties in a wad over this case. I agree with the police on this one, this guy was out to educate (setup) the philly cops. I agree with his motives and beliefs, I disagree entirely with his operations. Flame suit on once again.....

[Shane45 807]

My speculation is simply that if everyone did it, it would become the norm that it should be. If anyone has the stones to stand up and go first, I tip my hat to them!

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

What makes you think he was out to set them up? Just becuase he had a voice recorder with him? If you follow the Open Carry section on the PAFOA forum you'll see that it is highly recommended that anyone that open carries have a voice recorder with them to avoid any misunderstandings or misinterpretations should there be any interaction with police that did not pay attention (or just didn't care) during their MPOTEC training, which in 2009 focused on open carry in PA. That's just being circumspect.

 

Mark (the subject of the charges) routinely open carried and had no other intention, that day, than going to the auto parts store to get the needed parts to fix his mother's car. The PPD totally over-reacted to someone engaging in a completely legal activity. It was sad commentary that the officer that made the original stop (a sargent) and all subsequent officers that arrived on the scene, did not know the law. Aside from the way he was treated, that was inexcusable.

 

My predictions: Criminal charges (which were strictly retaliatory) will be dismissed and there will be a big payout from the city in the civil suit.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[HuntingPaper 62]

My speculation is simply that if everyone did it, it would become the norm that it should be. If anyone has the stones to stand up and go first, I tip my hat to them!

 

+1

[PK90 3,570]

I have to side with Bob on this one, even though BOTH sides acted inappropriately.

[LorenzoS 100]

So now the police are shocked - SHOCKED I SAY - that someone would be prepared with a recorder to catch someone committing illegal activity in order to bust them? Come on now.

 

The guy might be obnoxious but he was engaging in 100% legal activity. If they don't want to get caught on tape violating the law, then they should stop violating the law rather than blaming the real victim for "asking for it."

[Dan 177]

So now the police are shocked - SHOCKED I SAY - that someone would be prepared with a recorder to catch someone committing illegal activity in order to bust them? Come on now.

 

The guy might be obnoxious but he was engaging in 100% legal activity. If they don't want to get caught on tape violating the law, then they should stop violating the law rather than blaming the real victim for "asking for it."

 

That's my take. Whether or not the guy is obnoxious or carrying intentionally to attract PD attention is not the issue. The issue is he was doing something completely legal, and the cops approached and harassed him. He did not run up to a group of cops doing cartwheels screaming that he is pro-2A and right to carry na, nah na, you can't do anything to me...

 

What if it was one of us in this thread that weren't "out to get attention" OCing down the street and encountered a cop screaming profanity at you, get on your knees, and how he's going to murder you if you twitch funny. I would say that is a civil rights violation big time, as you are prohibited from peaceably and legally exercising your rights as a result of being harassed and threatened to be shot by the police.

 

Maybe the PA State Police need to start some undercover firearms carry operations in Philly to catch Philly cops breaking state laws so that civilians don't have to be the test cases. Never happen...

[HuntingPaper 62]

Maybe the PA State Police need to start some undercover firearms carry operations in Philly to catch Philly cops breaking state laws so that civilians don't have to be the test cases. Never happen...

 

That will happen the same day that I finally find the Unicorn farm that I was told about.

[axeman_g 128]

Please understand what I am saying here.... and Bob and I went back and forth on this in the earlier thread. I agree with everything this guy did, except when the rubber hit the road, he acted poorly, as did the initial responding officer. After listening to the recording many times and reading his threads I just get the feeling that he always had in the back of his mind the idea of laying a trap for monetary gain. He never says it... And I have no proof. It is purely a vibe you get from reading statements he has made.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I'm pretty sure that if they didn't relaunch and investigation and charge him with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct he wouldn't be planning on sueing the city.

 

Why they couldn't leave well enough alone is beyond me. Morons.

[Duppie 73]

Forgive my ignorance but how is what he did fundamentally different that let's say the Police setting up recorded John stings, or buy and bust? When it comes down to it I believe both parties hold some responsibility for this fiasco but as some LEO's are quick to point out, Police have to be held to a higher standard and for a Sargent not to be familiar with the basics of carry laws is in IMHO inexcusable.

Now if I were to put myself in either man's shoes I would say that the officer should have recognized that perhaps something was amiss and he was being set up pretty much after the first few minutes and play it cool instead of reverting to a foul mouthed bully .As for the gentleman, If I was going to set up the Cops, I would have followed the policeman's instructions to the letter to dispel any question that I was resisting or being disrespectful.

Again easy for me to speculate and in any tense situation emotion has a way of superseding logic or reasoning but is that not what our LEO's are indeed trained to guard against?

[theRU 33]

is it me or is it funny hearing the PD complain about being set up?????

 

Dont they set up drivers every day of the year using speed traps? Whats wrong with catching someone in the wrong???

[LorenzoS 100]

... I just get the feeling that he always had in the back of his mind the idea of laying a trap ...

 

Of course he did. Everyone knows he did. The police do that all the time. So what?

 

If they don't like getting busted, then they can stop breaking the law. Just like the other criminals that they bust.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I agree, i dont know why Philly is giving themselves such a big head ache on this one. They were clearly wrong but just couldn't leave it at that. The funny part is... there's not much they can prove in court... Reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct? Both seem to be nothing but smoke and mirror charges... and now the gun community will be even more pissed off.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I agree, i dont know why Philly is giving themselves such a big head ache on this one. They were clearly wrong but just couldn't leave it at that. The funny part is... there's not much they can prove in court... Reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct? Both seem to be nothing but smoke and mirror charges... and now the gun community will be even more pissed off.

 

Pure and simple retaliation. Someone got all huffy when they pretty much got made fools of. The Philly PD look like bullies and sore losers to me.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Honestly, there is a big difference between intending to start trouble with the police, and being prepared for trouble by the police. Do i think he went out that day with the thought in the back of his mind that he was going to start a revolution...absolutely not. Do i think he had in the back of his mind...maybe i should carry a recorded if something happens, yes i do.

If he wanted to start trouble he would have just been standing on a corner all day waiting for someone to approach him... he actually was just trying to go about his normal business when this happened.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Pure and simple retaliation. Someone got all huffy when they pretty much got made fools of. The Philly PD look like bullies and sore losers to me.

Exactly, kinda shows there true colors... add to the fact this case will be eating up time and money, especially in a city with high crime rates, it really shows just where there intentions are.

[kenw 293]

Whether or not he was planning to start something, or just planning to protect himself in case something started is irrelevant. The fact is that he was illegally accosted by cops who were ignorant of a law that they should be very well versed in, in the most thuggish and degrading possible way, while doing absolutely nothing illegal. He wasn't baiting anyone, he wasn't threatening anyone, he was buying car parts or something. There was no reason for the treatment he received, and it's only by great good fortune that he didn't find himself shot for absolutely no reason other than the ignorance, and then the authoritarian intransigence, of those who are sworn to uphold the law that he was peacefully obeying.

 

As a rule, I don't "cop bash". I have huge respect for the police and for the job they do, but in this case, our president said it best... "the police acted stupidly", and this guy deserves nothing less than a public apology from the Police Chief and Mayor of Philadelphia.

[FearThisInc 35]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

[vladtepes 1,060]

for the civilian it is ALWAYS said ignorance of the law is not an excuse...

 

well on the police end the same needs to hold true.. if you are going to enforce the law.. you need to KNOW the law.. if you don't KNOW the law call in to someone who does..

 

I hope he sues the **** out of them.. maybe if it costs them enough they can start to leave legal law abiding citizens alone..

[Duppie 73]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

While respecting your point of view,which I believe to be valuable pertaining to this incident and your experience. Have you ever encountered, let's say for the sake of argument, a perpetrator of a hold up or robbery casually walking down the street with a firearm prominently displayed on his hip?

[djg0770 481]

Ja, I vill just follow ze orders next time Herr Polizei Mann...

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

Except that's not how it went down...

 

There's the calm authoritative voice used to defuse a situation and then there's the I'm a jackbooted thug hopped up on my own self-importance voice used to inflame a situation - and you know it...

[FearThisInc 35]

While respecting your point of view,which I believe to be valuable pertaining to this incident and your experience. Have you ever encountered, let's say for the sake of argument, a perpetrator of a hold up or robbery casually walking down the street with a firearm prominently displayed on his hip?

 

I personally have not encountered this on such a call but have on others.. We get called to fights, kids breakign windows, etc and have seen people walking down the street who were involved like nothing happened.. It's when they know that we know it was them that they try and run.. One of the smartest criminals are the ones that stay calm.. Because as you said, everyone is looking for a guy in a hood/mask running around waiving a gun.. Watch videos online of guys that walk into a bank like anyone else.. they go up to a teller, slip a note or exchange words, teller hands over whatever it is and the guy walks out.. its only when he is outside that he may run or get in a car and go..

 

I understand the whole "the cops should know the law" and most guys do.. But unfortuantely we dont always know who are bad guys and who are not.. You can look at a cop and know he is a cop.. but i can look at you with a gun on your hip and I dont know what your intentions are.. Do you have a license to carry? Did you just come out of the range and forget to take off your gun? Did you just murder your family and looking to take others along with them? I have no idea who you are or what your intentions are.. The only thing I can do is gain the upper hand (drawing gun) until I determine who you are and what your intentions are.. Again.. I know there are some civilians that can carry but I don't know who they are.. So until I can SAFELY determine if you can carry a gun I will do all that I have to to make sure I go home at the end of the day.. What some are asking is that I have a normal conversation with a guy with a gun to see if he is licensed to carry and if he decided to try and kill me I should just try and see what my chances are in a drawing contest..

[mrjam2jab 9]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

 

and therein lies the whole problem. The cop had no RAS to stop Mark. This situation could have been completely avoided if the cop hadn't made the stop to begin with. You want to observe him for a little while, fine. But if you stop him you need a reason.

[FearThisInc 35]

Ja, I vill just follow ze orders next time Herr Polizei Mann...

 

 

 

Except that's not how it went down...

 

There's the calm authoritative voice used to defuse a situation and then there's the I'm a jackbooted thug hopped up on my own self-importance voice used to inflame a situation - and you know it...

 

 

I was just reading the transcript and the officer used calm authoritative voice.. It was not until the civilian repeatedly refused to follow the orders that the officer gave that he began using profanity which is allowed.. If a person isn't listening to someone when they speak we are told that adding profanity can help with getting order followed.. so in case and point..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground now..

 

Civilian : I don't want to.. I will just stand..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground now!!

 

Civilian: Ughh.. I have a carry permit..

 

Officer: Get on the F%^^&ing ground now!!!

 

Also on a side note.. pointing a gun at someone is not lethal force or threatening of lethal force.. it is constructive authority which is the least amount of force.. equal to me telling your what to do verbally..

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong..

 

Yes, he did. What was his RAS for the stop in the first place. Open carrying a gun in the absence of any bad act is not RAS - he should have never been stopped in the first place. This was aTerry stop plain and simple.

 

...but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian..

 

You have been drinking the Jersey kool-aide too long my friend.

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

So lets stop every motorist that is just going about their legal business, on the off-chance they just committed a crime. Again, the mere carrying of a gun does not rise to the level of RAS.

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

FAIL

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

FAIL - with no RAS for the stop none of this should have occurred. Here's a scenario for you - officer makes an illegal Terry stop, just as in this situation. Disarms citizen "for safety" - unfamiliar with the weapon/holster, retention system and has a ND killing/injuring innocent bystander - what happens now? Who was recklessly endangering whom? The gun in his holster was a danger to no one.

 

.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time..

 

Which is exactly why he was carrying the recorder

 

...what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip..

 

One that is versed in the law and paid attention not only to the statewide training, but also to his own department's internal memo on this very subject. You are looking at a Pennsylvania situation with a NJ perspective - FAIL

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[mrjam2jab 9]

Just for clarification purposes....The "F*C&ing" cop...was actually the 2nd on the scene...

 

"Get on the F%^^&ing ground now"

 

Was the first thing out of his mouth..

[kenw 293]

 

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

Why? Do you stop everyone driving a car to see if they have license, insurance and registration? Are there checkpoints at every corner to check for identity theft? Do you stop people coming out of sporting goods shops to ask why they have a baseball bat?

 

I've been in places where open carry is legal, and has been legal since forever, and I've never seen a citizen accosted and brutalized in such a way by the police.

 

Is it only in densely populated urban areas where your rights mean nothing? Or only in the Northeast?

 

If carry ever comes to NJ, there'll be a decade of such incidents. Some of them will be instigated by the civilian, flaunting his new rights in the face of authority, and some will be the fault of overzealous police trying to come to terms with the new freedoms. There may even be some tragic accidents. But in the end, as the culture of freedom becomes more accepted and normalized, the incidents will stop, and people will go through their days, some armed, some not, and the world won't stop spinning, blood won't flow like water in the streets, and our innocent children and brave law enforcement officers won't be any more vulnerable than they were before the state decided to protect our rights rather than deny them.

 

Cops have a tough job, but an armed, law abiding population isn't going to make it any harder.

[FearThisInc 35]

Just for clarification purposes....The "F*C&ing" cop...was actually the 2nd on the scene...

 

"Get on the F%^^&ing ground now"

 

Was the first thing out of his mouth..

 

But again he was told numerous times to do something and wasnt following orders.. In all reality had this guy just obeyed he would have been on his way in 5 minutes..

 

As for the above comment neither of us were in the store so we cannot articulate what the Officer's perspective was of the situation or the exact stance everyone was in.. How do we know the cashier did not give the Officer a "look" as to make the Officer aware that the civilian had a gun on his hip.. There are a lot of unknowns in the situation.. You have to remember that as you said.. Open carry may not justify probable cause.. but the civilians actions himself may have raised suspicion.. or maybe the cashier made eye contact with the Officer which raised suspicion.. or maybe ti was a fellow shopper that noticed it.. there are a lot of variables unknown here..

 

Kenw.. You are right.. In areas where open carry is an everyday occurrence cops might not stop everyone.. but in this area it is unheard of to get a carry permit.. so when someone is carrying chances are higher that he is not legally able to carry..

[Babaganoosh 192]

IDK.. I am a cop and this Officer doesn't seem like he started off wrong.. The guy carrying was not following orders whatsoever.. A cop tells you to do something you do it.. If you have a license to carry then fine.. It will come out in the end.. But to disobey orders is wrong.. The cop telling the guy he would get shot if he moves was in the right.. He warned the guy that if he reached for the gun he would be shot.. As a cop I can tell you that I would probably have done almost the same exact thing this officer did.. I know you guys on here are all for your right to carry and all that.. I am all for easing up laws to attain guns for recreational and home defense.. but I disagree with carrying a weapon as a civilian.. I know I will get bashed for it but as a cop that is my standpoint..

 

On a side note I know its going to be brought up that "this guy wasn't doing anything but buying car parts" but lets look at it like this.. a guy walks into a corner shop and tells the clerk he has a gun and will shoot if he doesn't hand over the cash.. a gun is never brought into view of the cashier but the threat is still there.. so this guy doesn't have to have the gun out or anything.. how does the officer know that the guy didn't just tell the clerk to hand over all the money in the register.. so just because the gun was holstered doesn't mean anything..

 

lastly.. here is how this all could have went based on this the situation that occurred:

 

Officer: (with gun drawn).. Sir put your hands on your head and get on your knees

 

Civilian: Officer, I have a license to carry and it is in my right pocket..

 

Officer: Get down on the ground

 

Civilian: Yes sir.. (gets on ground)

 

Officer: (disarms civilian, secures civilian for safety, and checks for i.d. and license to carry)

 

end of story.. no offense but you want to open carry then you are going to run into this ALL the time.. what cop is not going to stop someone with a gun on their hip.. yea.. let me walk past this guy and not bother to check him out so it turns out he has no license and just went to kill someone..

 

:facepalm: