ATF "letter rulings"

[Dan 177]

It's been said before, but the ATF is out of control. They have the ability to declare firearms "non-sporting" banning them from importation. They also have the power to arbitrarily declare newly designed firearms illegal based on "letter rulings".

 

Basically , firearm manufacturers send in a prototype to the ATF for analysis. The ATF will then come back and say its good or not. The kicker is , the ATF doesn't give any guidelines on what is good or not (so its all a big guess when you build your prototype), AND they can change their mind at any time, as in, its good this month, but then 6 mos later after you geared up to produce the new gun they tell you its a no-go.

 

Firearm manufacturers are simply asking for clear and concise guidelines they need to follow when designing new firearms, so they avoid the guessing game. The ATF refuses to give them any. Sounds kinda like the NJSP guideline book that we are suing about to have a peek at.

 

News article here

[djg0770 481]

Which came first the chicken (NJ firearms laws) or the egg (the BATFE)?

[reloaderguy 30]

Apparently what you are saying is not totally true. I just happend to read a copy of Guns and Ammo AR15 magazine which was doing a review about American Spirit Arms AR15.

http://americanspiritarms.com/rifle_articles/Book-of-the-AR-article.pdf

 

When I went to their website I was looking at some of their products and I came across a lower they have for sale. The lower it says has been deemed by the atf to not be classified as a firearm and it can be shipped directly to you without a ffl. Read the description of the lower.

http://www.americanspiritarms.com/lower-receivers/asa-m4-ar-15-95-percent-lower-receiver/

 

Which now leads me to my next statement. How and when will the atf consider this a firearm and where does the serial number come into play?

[Malsua 1,422]

 

 

Which now leads me to my next statement. How and when will the atf consider this a firearm and where does the serial number come into play?

 

As soon as you machine out the trigger and hammer recess. Then you become a firearms manufacturer. I could probably mill this out if I had some drawings or another complete lower to match, but I wouldn't be caught in NJ with an unserialized stripped lower.

[vladtepes 1,060]

As soon as you machine out the trigger and hammer recess. Then you become a firearms manufacturer. I could probably mill this out if I had some drawings or another complete lower to match, but I wouldn't be caught in NJ with an unserialized stripped lower.

 

I am not sure you can legally manufacture a firearm in NJ.. this came up during a "building an AK from scratch" discussion I had here at one point..

[XDJohnTact 49]

So I can buy, have it shipped to my house but can not complete it into a working lower. Um, as I missing something here, like what is the point? For $99.00 (or less) I can order a working, legal lower.

[Malsua 1,422]

So I can buy, have it shipped to my house but can not complete it into a working lower. Um, as I missing something here, like what is the point? For $99.00 (or less) I can order a working, legal lower.

 

Or you can buy this one, mill it out in your spare time, assemble it into a complete lower and be certain that if confiscation ever were to occur there is no 4473 for a law enforcement agency to lookup and trace back to you.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Or you can buy this one, mill it out in your spare time, assemble it into a complete lower and be certain that if confiscation ever were to occur there is no 4473 for a law enforcement agency to lookup and trace back to you.

 

I am not certain that you can manufacture a firearm in NJ?

this is NOT a firearm.. so if you make it into a working AR rifle.. you have then built a firearm.. in NJ.. which I am not sure is legal..

 

if "confiscation" ever does occur... there will be much larger fish to fry than who has what gun..

[Dan 177]

Apparently what you are saying is not totally true. I just happend to read a copy of Guns and Ammo AR15 magazine which was doing a review about American Spirit Arms AR15.

http://americanspiri...-AR-article.pdf

 

When I went to their website I was looking at some of their products and I came across a lower they have for sale. The lower it says has been deemed by the atf to not be classified as a firearm and it can be shipped directly to you without a ffl. Read the description of the lower.

http://www.americans...lower-receiver/

 

Which now leads me to my next statement. How and when will the atf consider this a firearm and where does the serial number come into play?

 

What is not totally true, your example backs up what I'm saying and what the article I linked to is about. How the ATF reviews samples from manufacturors and makes legally binding call on whether it is a firearm, not a firearm, a legal firearm, or illegal firearm, etc via these "letters". The point is, the ATF can all of a sudden declare those 95% lowers are now illegal (even if it previously ruled they were legal) without giving any reasoning behind its ruling.

[Dan 177]

I am not certain that you can manufacture a firearm in NJ?

this is NOT a firearm.. so if you make it into a working AR rifle.. you have then built a firearm.. in NJ.. which I am not sure is legal..

 

if "confiscation" ever does occur... there will be much larger fish to fry than who has what gun..

 

here's what I found:

 

Federal law allows for a person to build a firearm from scratch for their own personal use, not for resale.

 

NJ law pretty much says no, unless you register as a manufacturer and abide by the rules set forth.

 

2C:58-1. Registration of manufacturers and wholesale dealers of firearms

a. Registration. Every manufacturer and wholesale dealer of firearms shall register with the superintendent as provided in this section. No person shall engage in the business of, or act as a manufacturer or wholesale dealer of firearms, or manufacture or sell at wholesale any firearm, until he has so registered.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to buy it as is and toss it in your basement as a just incase the country turns to **** and guns are confiscated type thing. Just don't mill it out.

[tony357 386]

here's what I found:

 

Federal law allows for a person to build a firearm from scratch for their own personal use, not for resale.

 

NJ law pretty much says no, unless you register as a manufacturer and abide by the rules set forth.

 

intresting.

[Old School 611]

Expensive paperweight.

[Malsua 1,422]

I am not certain that you can manufacture a firearm in NJ?

this is NOT a firearm.. so if you make it into a working AR rifle.. you have then built a firearm.. in NJ.. which I am not sure is legal..

 

if "confiscation" ever does occur... there will be much larger fish to fry than who has what gun..

 

I'm absolutely certain if you buy this thing and mill it out, you have committed indictable offenses in NJ. This isn't about LEGALLY manufacturing a firearm. This is about having an untraceable firearm and you can be certain that if confiscation occurs, every single scrap of paper with a name and gun's serial number will be followed up. There is no reason for the ATF to take the 4473 forms of defunct FFLs except if they are looking forward to confiscation at a future date.

 

I absolutely would not buy this thing and I absolutely would not mill one out even though I have the equipment and the skill. There are however plenty of people who are paranoid enough that this device scratches an itch.

[vladtepes 1,060]

here's what I found:

 

Federal law allows for a person to build a firearm from scratch for their own personal use, not for resale.

 

NJ law pretty much says no, unless you register as a manufacturer and abide by the rules set forth.

 

fair enough thought it was something like that..

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'm absolutely certain if you buy this thing and mill it out, you have committed indictable offenses in NJ. This isn't about LEGALLY manufacturing a firearm. This is about having an untraceable firearm and you can be certain that if confiscation occurs, every single scrap of paper with a name and gun's serial number will be followed up. There is no reason for the ATF to take the 4473 forms of defunct FFLs except if they are looking forward to confiscation at a future date.

 

I absolutely would not buy this thing and I absolutely would not mill one out even though I have the equipment and the skill. There are however plenty of people who are paranoid enough that this device scratches an itch.

 

just being clear for those who are not up to speed on our wonderful NJ law system..

[SpacemanFry 51]

I'm absolutely certain if you buy this thing and mill it out, you have committed indictable offenses in NJ. This isn't about LEGALLY manufacturing a firearm. This is about having an untraceable firearm and you can be certain that if confiscation occurs, every single scrap of paper with a name and gun's serial number will be followed up. There is no reason for the ATF to take the 4473 forms of defunct FFLs except if they are looking forward to confiscation at a future date.

 

I absolutely would not buy this thing and I absolutely would not mill one out even though I have the equipment and the skill. There are however plenty of people who are paranoid enough that this device scratches an itch.

 

I could be wrong, but I think he's saying that if the gov ever decides to do weapon confiscations the least of ITS worries will be whether there are untraceable firearms... ie some serious **** will hit the fan if it comes to that.

[Malsua 1,422]

I could be wrong, but I think he's saying that if the gov ever decides to do weapon confiscations the least of ITS worries will be whether there are untraceable firearms... ie some serious **** will hit the fan if it comes to that.

 

The serious **** will be from the guys with the untraceable firearms

[vladtepes 1,060]

The serious **** will be from the guys with the untraceable firearms

 

they can come look.. because all I will say is I promise wherever they come look for me.. I won't be there... lol

I am a law abiding citizen... but am not giving up my guns.. I bought them with my money.. and they are my possessions.. I am not going to stand for someone who thinks he can just walk in and take whats mine..

not trying to be "internet tough" or anything.. but I will just go somewhere they wont be going.. I know that for sure..

[SpacemanFry 51]

The serious **** will be from the guys with the untraceable firearms

 

First of all, I'm of the opinion that a great majority of LEO and military would refuse to enforce this on principle and a good majority of the rest wouldn't do it out of fear.

 

The great irony of the whole anti movement is that they are FAR less likely to have members of their family in the military. In fact if you look at the statistics the majority of the military comes from states that are quite pro 2A. When those states refuse to follow this do you believe that the military personnel originating from those states would go in to enforce something like that knowing full well it will come to a firefight?

 

Confiscation is purely a hypothetical in the US. This country will have another civil war before it ever came to that. More likely are things like full registration and other such infringements and limits.

[Soju 153]

First of all, I'm of the opinion that a great majority of LEO and military would refuse to enforce this on principle and a good majority of the rest wouldn't do it out of fear.

 

I actually think you have this backwards. I think that a lot of them WOULD enforce it, out of fear.

 

When those states refuse to follow this do you believe that the military personnel originating from those states would go in to enforce something like that knowing full well it will come to a firefight?

 

 

 

I would like to think that too, but it is a rock and hard place type debate. It is hard to know what one would do our of coercion or through threat of punitive action against them.

 

I am basing this off of personal experience.

[302w 83]

I don't think I will ever see confiscation of guns. It would become very anarchistic in a lot of places before that would happen.

 

If the government really wanted to take away firearms, I imagine that it would begin with heavily taxing of guns/ammo, registration, national FID cards, etc.

 

Make it more of a pain to own/shoot. Really, ban all "military firearms" and grandfather all current ones, and 100 years from now people will have 100 year old AR's, AK's, and 170 year old Mosins. You would be hard pressed to find anything short of a bolt action sporter, shotgun, or .22.

 

I dont believe much will change, but all I am saying the Government is more likely to restrict, rather than confiscate.

[KpdPipes 388]

Apparently what you are saying is not totally true. I just happend to read a copy of Guns and Ammo AR15 magazine which was doing a review about American Spirit Arms AR15.

http://americanspiri...-AR-article.pdf

 

When I went to their website I was looking at some of their products and I came across a lower they have for sale. The lower it says has been deemed by the atf to not be classified as a firearm and it can be shipped directly to you without a ffl. Read the description of the lower.

http://www.americans...lower-receiver/

 

Which now leads me to my next statement. How and when will the atf consider this a firearm and where does the serial number come into play?

I don't know how that is Kosher frankly, i was under the impression that a receiver had to be a MAXIMUM of 80% finished to be sold as a Non-firearm.