Not good , not good.

[Soju 153]

Speaking of 'stand your ground', where exactly did this take place? It sounded like it took place in some guys yard or on his porch or something. Does someone else's private property qualify as "any place you have a legal right to be"?

[woodentoe 14]

If I am interpreting the reports correctly this occurred in a gated housing community in the grassy area between the backs of homes. I'm not sure if it occurred on private property or not, but it definitely wasn't on the street or public sidewalk. It seems like when Martin ran, he ran in between the houses and across yards to try and get away. Zimmerman pursued.

 

That is unless you accept Zimmerman's account that he had gotten out of his car to confirm the name of the street he was on (in a gated development in which he lives and is a self-appointed watchman of), and was set upon by Martin while walking back to his car.

[joshroz2 4]

After zimmerman is told to stop following he initionally keeps running and then does stop following. He losses the kid, his breath slows, the wind into the phone slows, and he finishes the converstion with the operator. They must have met again a few minutes after the kid intially ran and zimmerman didn't know where he went.

 

Why they released the audio and not other details is beyond me. A lot of things could be cleared up with a few more small details.

[KpdPipes 388]

I expect to see Zimmerman charged with at LEAST manslaughter..while he may be Acquitted in trial, the fact remains that if he had done what he was told, the kid would be alive.

[Qel Hoth 33]

After finally listening to the tapes, something is fishy here. Nobody except Zimmerman and Martin know what really happened, but I think Zimmerman is going to be in trouble, and rightfully so.

 

From Zimmerman's call to 911, Martin may or may not have made a possible aggressive move towards Zimmerman, but Zimmerman escalated the incident by chasing Martin.

[KpdPipes 388]

After finally listening to the tapes, something is fishy here. Nobody except Zimmerman and Martin know what really happened, but I think Zimmerman is going to be in trouble, and rightfully so.

 

From Zimmerman's call to 911, Martin may or may not have made a possible aggressive move towards Zimmerman, but Zimmerman escalated the incident by chasing Martin.

 

The reporting ranges from spotty to inflammatory and always short on facts...it's going to take a while to figure out exactly what happened..until then, the usual suspects are going to be calling for this guy's head.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

This will definately challeng the Fla. "Stand Your Ground Law"..........IMO.

 

I know, but that's not what should happen, this is an isolated ( and from what it looks like now, not a good one ) but 1 person and what they do would not have an impact on the many.

 

I still have to ask,, Why is it that in a case like this that the Stand Your Ground law will be looked at, but this is one case out of 1000's if not 10,000's to 1, but for all of them, why is it that they don't look at improving people rights to self defense??

[Sandy 44]

It is drawing so much attention because it is the 3rd incident to hit the media. You know how that goes. One guy gave chase to a robber through the streets ,caught him , struggled , killed the robber . Another guy ran into into a park armed to yell at some skateboarders..another guy that was there with his 8 year old tried to intervene , got into with the armed skater hater , and was shot dead in front of his son.

 

So now that on top of those two incidents you have a possible ( possible) hate crime commited using Stand Your Ground as the reason for no arrest..the media will be all over this for a while.

[JSF01 13]

Now I may have my tin foil hat on a little tight but I wonder if the police chief is anti gun, and this was a plot to get rid of stand your ground. I remember reading a story a while ago about a judge who did not like the law and said that criminals would be able to use the law to not get a way with crimes. a few month later there was a a shooting between two criminals and a stray bullet hit and killed some one (i believe kid) there was an uproar because the criminal was found not guilty because he was acting in self defense. The judge of that case, the same judge who said stuff like that was going to happen. He made his own prophacy come true by twisting a law around in order to spark out rage in the general public.

[Soju 153]

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2012/03/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin.html

 

Found this interesting.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Was he told to stop pursuit? Or did the operate say "we don't need you to do that."? I haven't been through 100% of the tapes, but i don't recall them specifically telling him to stop following. In fact, it was pretty apparent when he hung up that the operator didnt care he was following because there last words together were something along the lines of, i'm still looking for/following the suspicious person call me when the officer gets here. The operator was absolutely fine with that.

[Sandy 44]

Yes , that is what the 911 dispatch said " we don't need you to do that" . Zimmerman is under no legal obligation to follow that advice ..but if he is arrested his statements that he made himself ,stating that he was following the kid , will aid the prosecutor greatly.

 

Whether or not we all agree on fault so far with this case , I think we can all agree that there is a good chance this could wind up being a landmark lesson on "what not to say to the cops and 911 dispatch". He said a lot of things on tape than can really do him in if he is arrested.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Here's new and updated information that was just released.

 

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-report-police-say-evidence-indicates-trayvon-martin-attacked-zimmerman

[JackDaWack 2,895]

It doesn't matter, the public has already hung Zimmerman, bunch of sheeple.

 

Funny thing is, i kinda called this in post #30. And everyone bashed me saying he was playing cop, and he should have done what he was told, when in reality he wasnt told to do anything. Nothing points to him trying to apprehend Martin, he was just keeping on eye on where he was until the cops arrived, AND now it looks like MARTIN was the one who approach Zimmerman.

[MarkWVU02 47]

I still don't get why people are defending Zimmerman.

 

He was on neighborhood watch with a gun...a big no no

 

He pursued a person against advice from 911

 

Confronted the person (I feel he did by what I've followed)

 

Martin probably did punch him. I'd punch him too if I was getting followed by a stranger who doesn't identify himself and really isn't a cop so has no business following me. There are a lot of people out there that harm and abduct kids how am I supposed to know he's not one of them.

 

Zimmerman probably bit off more than he could chew and Martin got the upper hand so Zimmerman shot him.

 

He still made the mistake and was the instigator. I can't find reason to call it self defense when he was the protagonist in the situation. I wonder of Zimmerman would've been all tough and pursued the kid without the weapon?

[johnp 45]

From the tapes I've heard and read, Zimmerman lost the kid after he started running. Then the kid, after having 'escaped' from his follower, came back to confront Z. And then a fight ensued.

[this_is_nascar 162]

I still don't get why people are defending Zimmerman.

 

He was on neighborhood watch with a gun...a big no no

 

He pursued a person against advice from 911

 

Confronted the person (I feel he did by what I've followed)

 

Martin probably did punch him. I'd punch him too if I was getting followed by a stranger who doesn't identify himself and really isn't a cop so has no business following me. There are a lot of people out there that harm and abduct kids how am I supposed to know he's not one of them.

 

Zimmerman probably bit off more than he could chew and Martin got the upper hand so Zimmerman shot him.

 

He still made the mistake and was the instigator. I can't find reason to call it self defense when he was the protagonist in the situation. I wonder of Zimmerman would've been all tough and pursued the kid without the weapon?

 

 

I haven't read everything related to the case, but I'm with you. That was my 1st inclination when I heard that 1) he had a gun on town watch and 2) went against official advise. I think he was doing his "Rambo" bit and it bit him in the *ss.

[MarkWVU02 47]

It doesn't matter, the public has already hung Zimmerman, bunch of sheeple.

 

Funny thing is, i kinda called this in post #30.

 

I think people just want justice. You don't just kill someone and walk away the same day when there is so much mystery surrounding it. They John Doed Martin and gave him a toxicology test but none was performed on Zimmerman. He walked on an assault on a police officer charge which makes me think he may have some connections in the department. There are just too many things that need to be investigated before you let a person who shot an unarmed person walk. I'm sure if this was a white kid in a black neighborhood people would be reacting the same way, but I bet the black guy would have been arrested before it came to that. I'm not trying to play the race card I'm just pointing out how I feel about it. I think people are just pissed that nothing was done and this guy went home while the kid's body sat in a morgue.

[MarkWVU02 47]

From the tapes I've heard and read, Zimmerman lost the kid after he started running. Then the kid, after having 'escaped' from his follower, came back to confront Z. And then a fight ensued.

 

The girlfriend said he refused to run and from her story it doesn't appear to me that Zimmerman conveniently lost him. I feel Zimmerman confronted Martin and Martin got the upper hand. The girlfriend said Martin asked why are you following me...doesn't sound like something you would say before you ambush someone and why wouldn't he have hung up the phone if he was planning the ambush. Seems like you'd want to hands to attack with. We can all have our theories about it but judging what I've read that's what I get out of it.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I still don't get why people are defending Zimmerman.

 

He was on neighborhood watch with a gun...a big no no

LEGAL

 

He pursued a person against advice from 911

No Advice was given

Confronted the person (I feel he did by what I've followed)

NOT KNOWN

Martin probably did punch him. I'd punch him too if I was getting followed by a stranger who doesn't identify himself and really isn't a cop so has no business following me. There are a lot of people out there that harm and abduct kids how am I supposed to know he's not one of them.

Ever herd of an undercover cop?

Zimmerman probably bit off more than he could chew and Martin got the upper hand so Zimmerman shot him.

If i had a broken nose, i'd probably have little and blurry vision. His head was being smaked on the ground, so it would be safe to say his motor coordination was being limited. It's possible he was on the verge of loosing consciousness, who are you to say it was not justified. And nothing points to Zimmerman biting off anything, let alone more then he could chew.

He still made the mistake and was the instigator. I can't find reason to call it self defense when he was the protagonist in the situation. I wonder of Zimmerman would've been all tough and pursued the kid without the weapon? I still can't come to this conclusion with the facts, the kid ran prior to him even really pursing the Martin. he was on the phone in his car with 911 when the kid took off.

[johnp 45]

I never said that T ambushed Z, I said he confronted him. There's so much "evidence", but IIRC on the 911 tape Z was regaining his breath, as if he stopped chasing someone and told the operator "I lost him". I'm not saying that the truth, that's how I recall hearing it.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The girlfriend said he refused to run and from her story it doesn't appear to me that Zimmerman conveniently lost him. I feel Zimmerman confronted Martin and Martin got the upper hand. The girlfriend said Martin asked why are you following me...doesn't sound like something you would say before you ambush someone and why wouldn't he have hung up the phone if he was planning the ambush. Seems like you'd want to hands to attack with. We can all have our theories about it but judging what I've read that's what I get out of it.

 

So your saying MARTIN was the one who instigated the confrontation? Why didnt he call the cops, thought he could handle it himself? How does a civil question, why are you following me, turns into a fist fight?

[Krdshrk 3,878]

 

 

MarkWVU02, on 26 March 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

 

I still don't get why people are defending Zimmerman.

 

He was on neighborhood watch with a gun...a big no no

LEGAL

 

He pursued a person against advice from 911

No Advice was given

Confronted the person (I feel he did by what I've followed)

NOT KNOWN

Martin probably did punch him. I'd punch him too if I was getting followed by a stranger who doesn't identify himself and really isn't a cop so has no business following me. There are a lot of people out there that harm and abduct kids how am I supposed to know he's not one of them.

Ever herd of an undercover cop?

Zimmerman probably bit off more than he could chew and Martin got the upper hand so Zimmerman shot him.

If i had a broken nose, i'd probably have little and blurry vision. His head was being smaked on the ground, so it would be safe to say his motor coordination was being limited. It's possible he was on the verge of loosing consciousness, who are you to say it was not justified. And nothing points to Zimmerman biting off anything, let alone more then he could chew.

He still made the mistake and was the instigator. I can't find reason to call it self defense when he was the protagonist in the situation. I wonder of Zimmerman would've been all tough and pursued the kid without the weapon? I still can't come to this conclusion with the facts, the kid ran prior to him even really pursing the Martin. he was on the phone in his car with 911 when the kid took off.

 

Agreed.

[this_is_nascar 162]

I think people just want justice. You don't just kill someone and walk away the same day when there is so much mystery surrounding it. They John Doed Martin and gave him a toxicology test but none was performed on Zimmerman. He walked on an assault on a police officer charge which makes me think he may have some connections in the department. There are just too many things that need to be investigated before you let a person who shot an unarmed person walk. I'm sure if this was a white kid in a black neighborhood people would be reacting the same way, but I bet the black guy would have been arrested before it came to that. I'm not trying to play the race card I'm just pointing out how I feel about it. I think people are just pissed that nothing was done and this guy went home while the kid's body sat in a morgue.

 

 

Sure you are, otherwise you would have never made that statement.

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

So your saying MARTIN was the one who instigated the confrontation? Why didnt he call the cops, thought he could handle it himself? How does a civil question, why are you following me, turns into a fist fight?

 

How do you get that? I said Martin is on the phone and then as he's trying to get away from the guy asks "why are you following me" as if he was being confronted.

 

I'm sure when you were 17 your first inclination would've been to call the cops. Mine would be to walk faster and try to get away as he told his girlfriend he was doing.

 

Who knows what happened Zimmerman could have tried to grab him and the kid laid him out. I can really see that happening as I've seen it done before. Like I said some weirdo is following me and now confronts me I think instinct sort of takes over.

 

We can all have our opinions on the case and some will choose to look at the evidence differently all I offered was my opinion.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Too many people are drawing too many conclusions from not enough actual evidence. Note - the audio excerpts that were released online may not have the entire call. I'm not sure as I have not listened to them yet.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The thing is, people aren't defending Zimmerman, myself included. Im not saying he is innocent, just trying to make out the most logical explanation using the facts. There are to many what if's to make any legitimate statement. My point is to ruffle the feathers when people start trying to make the story fit the facts.

[Sandy 44]

Like I said a few times..I really think it was 2 people both thinking they were in a struggle for their lives against a bad guy.

 

I still say stay in your vehicle safely , the police were on their way , you are doing a lot more good for the neighborhood if you keep an eye out and call the police , and then let them do their job. Exception of course if you see someone being assaulted you have to decide whether or not to be a Good Samaritan hero because we all know seconds count during an assault and you can't always wait for the police. But a suspicious person ? And you're on the phone with dispatch and police are on their way? When you get out of the car and you are armed you risk escalation and you put YOURSELF at serious risk of exactly what has happened here.

 

I do not think anyone can say that this was racially motivated without more evidence. The media's coverage of it is making it a racially motivated incident regardless. And I seriously doubt that the lack of arrest has anything to do with race. Orlando is fairly integrated. The media is going to create a situation where there could be riots if this guy is not arrested.

 

Zimmerman is going to spend a long time in fear of his life even if he is not arrested. And we have a dead kid .

 

In summary , NO GOOD has come from an armed neighborhood watchman getting out of his car and following a suspicious person.

 

It sounds like one big misunderstanding by both parties , and it resulted in a death and a ruined life. Shame. Really is .

 

I do agree with everything jackdawack posted except for one thing..yes there are undercover cops. But really , if I am being followed by someone in plain clothes and it is dark out I personally am drawing no comfort from the fact that the person following may be an undercover officer , even if he identifies himself as such. That is not good street safety mentality. If I was being pulled over by an unmarked car on a dark road , I am putting on the hazards and driving to a well lit public area. Correct me if I am wrong but you have protection by the law to do exactly that. If it does not look like a duck or quack like a duck I don't think a typical conclusion would be " hey , but it might be a duck."

 

I'm done analyzing this for a bit because I heard there are several 911 tapes that have not been released and that will enlighten things a bit more. I'm waiting on that at this point. Plus the facts are changing by the minute. Who said what ..some witnesses are popping out. This is just unfolding.

[MarkWVU02 47]

I've heard multiple times that people on neighborhood watch aren't supposed to be carrying a firearm.

 

The 911 operator tells him they don't need him to follow. I've heard the tapes. He says he's following she says we don't need to do that.

 

An undercover cop would identify himself. Martin asks why are you following me. Zimmerman says what are you doing here and a struggle ensues according to the girlfriend who was still on the phone at the time.

 

Once again my opinion is he confronted him and somehow they started fighting. Martin being an athlete got the upper hand. Sounds like biting off more than you can chew to me and again is my opinion.

 

My point to this whole thing was Zimmerman called 911. Officers were en route. He no longer has a reason to follow yet still does.

 

I brought up the race thing because people keep posting stories of black in white murders on this board but the funny thing was all the articles I've read that we're posted resulted in convictions.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

How do you get that? I said Martin is on the phone and then as he's trying to get away from the guy asks "why are you following me" as if he was being confronted.

 

I'm sure when you were 17 your first inclination would've been to call the cops. Mine would be to walk faster and try to get away as he told his girlfriend he was doing.

 

Who knows what happened Zimmerman could have tried to grab him and the kid laid him out. I can really see that happening as I've seen it done before. Like I said some weirdo is following me and now confronts me I think instinct sort of takes over.

 

We can all have our opinions on the case and some will choose to look at the evidence differently all I offered was my opinion.

Actually, at 17, i was being followed once, and my first thought was, CALL THE F'ING COPS. Pissed off the wrong guy on the highway i guess. You think i'm going to chance actually getting away? or dare i even think about turning around and confronting him. It doesn't sound like Martin was all that scared and running away., carrying on a conversation with his GF.