9mm vs 45

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

This has always been my opinion. All calipers can kill. A well placed shot (or two) is more important then the caliper.

 

Maybe if you threw them hard enough

[Duppie 73]

This has always been my opinion. All calipers can kill. A well placed shot (or two) is more important then the caliper.

Caliber perhaps?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Caliber perhaps?

 

 

Actually "vernier caliper"

[Sandy 44]

we have 9mm , .40 , .45 , .38/357 magnum and I practice with all of them . The CZ 75 in .40( which is Pete's , not mine) is the one I shoot very well. I can line it up faster and am more accurate with it than any of our other guns. Who cares about the caliber , I'm picking up the one I shoot the best. That gun is like a shoe that just fits. Next batch of permits and I'll be looking at one of my own. A close second is my revolver ..to me it is 2nd because of capacity. I do not entertain the idea that shooting when your life is threatened is the same as shooting paper. I expect to find the extra rounds handy . I can't shoot the PX4 9mm for s&^T , it just does not fit in my hand and it is light enough where the recoil has it jumping on me , more so than the all metal .40 or .45 . My preference of what to pick up if SHTF has the least to do with "which caliber" and the most to do with " which gun"

[when_shtf 4]

Damn it! I hate when that happens. I'd like to blame auto correct, but that'd be a lie. So I'll just blame stupidity instead.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Too bad that we can't unearth dear Elmer Keith, the famous six-gunner and designer of the Keith-style bullet. He has written THE books on what works as far as bullets are concerned. Penetration tests on human cadavers, the design of the original .44 Magnum, use of 250-300 grain pistol bullets for one-shot stops of African Big Game, etc., etc. Point that I'm making is that this has all been "put-to-rest" several decades ago. Slower, heavier bullets can use their mass to go through things like windows & car doors and still have the "punch" needed to stop a fight. Take that same heavier bullet and give it a higher velocity such as in the case of .44 Magnum, .45 Winchester Magnum (for the Widley), and several others, and the video of the ballistic gelatin test is mind-blowing. Wound channels double the size of what's in the video clip at the beginning of this thread!

 

There are at least two schools of thought when it comes to man-stoppers:

 

1. Use several (read as 3-4) well-placed smaller rounds in hopes that the SOB will somehow bleed-out fast enough to deny his brain oxygen, thus ending the fight.

 

2. Use the biggest round (or two) that you can shoot straight and get somewhere near center-of-mass. It's hydrostatic shock will destroy enough tissue & organs & go through enough bone to stop the fight. This is battle-proven, with volumes of one-shot stops both in Europe & Asia. Also of note is the use of heavy bullets in survival guns such as the .44 & .50 caliber wheelguns' use in Alaska, etc.

 

Either way works, and the net result is that a Hi-Cap 9 can't really fight (and be sure to knock-down) any more Bad Guys than a single-stack .45 in the hands of someone who can handle the .45!

 

So as one of the previous posters said (I'm paraphrasing) "I feel confident using this weapons system", and I believe that confidence in a gunfight, combined with a clear head and a steady hand have won many a confrontation. Just remember though, if you're betting your LIFE on a 9mm, train using several rounds per Perp so you come-out on top! I'd say 2 minimum, and 3 is better, then re-asess the situation.

 

Of course, having the situational awareness to not let yourself become exposed to a threat(s) is even better than having to shoot your way out of one.......

[Dan 177]

Brembo Calipers have the best stopping power, IMO of course...

 

[Maksim 1,504]

puhleeze, we all know it is all about the best caliber in the world in the best handgun in the world. 45 Glock in a Glock 37

 

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

puhleeze, we all know it is all about the best caliber in the world in the best handgun in the world. 45 Glock in a Glock 37

 

 

 

What exactly is a 45 GAP? I know what it means and what they were trying to do, but did they?

[Jon 264]

Too bad that we can't unearth dear Elmer Keith, the famous six-gunner and designer of the Keith-style bullet. He has written THE books on what works as far as bullets are concerned. Penetration tests on human cadavers, the design of the original .44 Magnum, use of 250-300 grain pistol bullets for one-shot stops of African Big Game, etc., etc. Point that I'm making is that this has all been "put-to-rest" several decades ago. Slower, heavier bullets can use their mass to go through things like windows & car doors and still have the "punch" needed to stop a fight. Take that same heavier bullet and give it a higher velocity such as in the case of .44 Magnum, .45 Winchester Magnum (for the Widley), and several others, and the video of the ballistic gelatin test is mind-blowing. Wound channels double the size of what's in the video clip at the beginning of this thread!

 

There are at least two schools of thought when it comes to man-stoppers:

 

1. Use several (read as 3-4) well-placed smaller rounds in hopes that the SOB will somehow bleed-out fast enough to deny his brain oxygen, thus ending the fight.

 

2. Use the biggest round (or two) that you can shoot straight and get somewhere near center-of-mass. It's hydrostatic shock will destroy enough tissue & organs & go through enough bone to stop the fight. This is battle-proven, with volumes of one-shot stops both in Europe & Asia. Also of note is the use of heavy bullets in survival guns such as the .44 & .50 caliber wheelguns' use in Alaska, etc.

 

Either way works, and the net result is that a Hi-Cap 9 can't really fight (and be sure to knock-down) any more Bad Guys than a single-stack .45 in the hands of someone who can handle the .45!

 

So as one of the previous posters said (I'm paraphrasing) "I feel confident using this weapons system", and I believe that confidence in a gunfight, combined with a clear head and a steady hand have won many a confrontation. Just remember though, if you're betting your LIFE on a 9mm, train using several rounds per Perp so you come-out on top! I'd say 2 minimum, and 3 is better, then re-asess the situation.

 

Of course, having the situational awareness to not let yourself become exposed to a threat(s) is even better than having to shoot your way out of one.......

 

Sorry, but you will never get hydrostatic shock with a handgun cartridge. There just isn't enough velocity for it to happen. You need rifle velocities to experience hydrostatic shock.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Too bad that we can't unearth dear Elmer Keith, the famous six-gunner and designer of the Keith-style bullet. He has written THE books on what works as far as bullets are concerned. Penetration tests on human cadavers, the design of the original .44 Magnum, use of 250-300 grain pistol bullets for one-shot stops of African Big Game, etc., etc. Point that I'm making is that this has all been "put-to-rest" several decades ago. Slower, heavier bullets can use their mass to go through things like windows & car doors and still have the "punch" needed to stop a fight. Take that same heavier bullet and give it a higher velocity such as in the case of .44 Magnum, .45 Winchester Magnum (for the Widley), and several others, and the video of the ballistic gelatin test is mind-blowing. Wound channels double the size of what's in the video clip at the beginning of this thread!

 

There are at least two schools of thought when it comes to man-stoppers:

 

1. Use several (read as 3-4) well-placed smaller rounds in hopes that the SOB will somehow bleed-out fast enough to deny his brain oxygen, thus ending the fight.

 

2. Use the biggest round (or two) that you can shoot straight and get somewhere near center-of-mass. It's hydrostatic shock will destroy enough tissue & organs & go through enough bone to stop the fight. This is battle-proven, with volumes of one-shot stops both in Europe & Asia. Also of note is the use of heavy bullets in survival guns such as the .44 & .50 caliber wheelguns' use in Alaska, etc.

 

Either way works, and the net result is that a Hi-Cap 9 can't really fight (and be sure to knock-down) any more Bad Guys than a single-stack .45 in the hands of someone who can handle the .45!

 

So as one of the previous posters said (I'm paraphrasing) "I feel confident using this weapons system", and I believe that confidence in a gunfight, combined with a clear head and a steady hand have won many a confrontation. Just remember though, if you're betting your LIFE on a 9mm, train using several rounds per Perp so you come-out on top! I'd say 2 minimum, and 3 is better, then re-asess the situation.

 

Of course, having the situational awareness to not let yourself become exposed to a threat(s) is even better than having to shoot your way out of one.......

 

Which is one of the reasons for me sticking with the 45 in auto's.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Sorry, but you will never get hydrostatic shock with a handgun cartridge. There just isn't enough velocity for it to happen. You need rifle velocities to experience hydrostatic shock.

 

Think about that, the 500 S&W (and others like it) are exactly that. BUT, not in most of the calibers mentioned here.

[Jon 264]

Think about that, the 500 S&W (and others like it) are exactly that. BUT, not in most of the calibers mentioned here.

 

I will concede to the 500 and 460, but those don't really count in this discussion.

[Dan 177]

Sorry, but you will never get hydrostatic shock with a handgun cartridge. There just isn't enough velocity for it to happen. You need rifle velocities to experience hydrostatic shock.

 

This guy thinks so. IMO just like anything, tons of variables have to be taken into account, and HG's at the lower threshold of potentially causing "hydrostatic shock" would have a lower chance of causing it over a rifle round.

 

The work of Suneson et al. also

suggests that remote neural effects can

occur with levels of energy transfer

possible with handguns (roughly 500 ft-lbs/700 joules).

 

Scientific Evidence for "Hydrostatic Shock"

[Jon 264]

This guy thinks so. IMO just like anything, tons of variables have to be taken into account, and HG's at the lower threshold of potentially causing "hydrostatic shock" would have a lower chance of causing it over a rifle round.

 

 

 

Scientific Evidence for "Hydrostatic Shock"

 

Very interesting article, thanks for sharing. It does however mention a "threshold" of 500ft-lbs, of which not even a 230gr Speer Gold Dot can achieve at the muzzle.

[Jon 264]

Hrm, looks like even the insanely hot Buffalo Bore 230gr .45 +P can hit the 500 number. 10mm does, however!

[Dan 177]

.357sig 125gr loads hit 584ft/lbs , edit : technically it is a 9mm caliber bullet!!

[Maksim 1,504]

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=124&osCsid=rmt43hb1vvgu0l0ua04rapk9e7 614

[Dan 177]

Only 9mm Luger +p+ can barley hit over 500ft/lbs

[Dan 177]

http://www.doubletap...u0l0ua04rapk9e7 614

 

Tis why .357sig is my favorite pistol round. I want to get 10mm, but haven't done so yet for fear of adding yet another caliber to add to the stockpiles.

[Jon 264]

Seems like all of these loads are within 50-100ft-lbs of one another. I really don't think there would be a damn bit of difference between any of them. Now, 10mm, .44 mag, etc... an argument can certainly be made. But not for 9mm vs 45.

[Dan 177]

Yea, you need specialty loads to hit the 500ft/lbs mark for both 9mm luger and .45acp. Which is the entry point for hydrostatic shock territory. Not something to really form a basis on for either round.

 

Which leaves shot placement (hitting something critical) and wound channel damage to cause bleeding in semi-vital organs, etc. One can argue you can get more 9mm shots off more accurately emphasizing and increase in better shot placement and chances of hitting vital stuff. Where the .45 causes a more damaging wound channel, emphasizing an increase in the chance of causing more of a bleed out.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Yea, you need specialty loads to hit the 500ft/lbs mark for both 9mm luger and .45acp. Which is the entry point for hydrostatic shock territory. Not something to really form a basis on for either round.

 

Which leaves shot placement (hitting something critical) and wound channel damage to cause bleeding in semi-vital organs, etc. One can argue you can get more 9mm shots off more accurately emphasizing and increase in better shot placement and chances of hitting vital stuff. Where the .45 causes a more damaging wound channel, emphasizing an increase in the chance of causing more of a bleed out.

 

This is just what I was saying, only re-worded......

 

And as for hydrostatic shock, JoN, you have to do the "Rosey" Test: Fire a 470 grain .50 caliber lead bullet into a watermellon at 15' distance. I chrono'd the bullet at 1379 FPS. Fired it from my Lyman black powder rifle using 100 grains of black powder. Instead of merely slicing into the watermellon like a .30-06 150 grain machine gun round a la R. Lee Ermey (several rounds into the mellon going straight through) on Mail Call TV show, my single 470 grain slug destroys the mellon leaving only bits & pieces, the largest being the size of approx. 1.25" x 3.5" (and only one or two that big)! The rest has to get washed off of the table the mellon was propped up upon and also washed off of the shooter & his rifle! If that ain't hydrostatic shock, I don't know what the hell is!

 

Rifle velocities of 2000 or 3000 FPS aren't needed for hydrostatic shock to occur. Sectional density & bullet mass have a lot to do with the equation!

 

I find it extremely interesting that what's old is new again, and re-discovered! For instance, did you kids know that Elmer Keith invented the .41 Magnum as the answer to what the Police needed in a hand gun round? The 10mm of today owes it's ballistic upbringing to the ancient .41 Magnum! In a revolver, the .41 recoiled less than the .44 Magnum and allowed Cops to get back on target quicker. It's 200+ grain jacket hollow point projectile did just as much or even more damage as the 10mm (.40 short & weak all grown-up) creating huge wound channels in cadavers.

 

Bullet weight (mass) creates a certain "thumpability" and can knock-down attackers. Examples of 555 grain (slower than crap) .58 caliber Minne Balls going through THREE soldiers in alignment have been eye witnessed by Doctors during the Civil War. Elmer Keith's .44 Magnum 300 grain Keith style bullet has dropped mule deer at more than 400 yards when fired from a 4" tubed revolver. Big heavy bullets get the job done. Nothing beats "thumpability", that sound you hear as a 200+ pound animal hits the ground as its' legs fold-up from underneath itself......

[Jon 264]

Okay, so you need rifle velocities, or bullets two times the size of a typical 45acp. Typical semi-auto handgun calibers will not generate hydrostatic shock unless loaded to the absolute envelope, and even then, they are just barely approaching the ft-lbs needed to do so.

 

ETA: You're also talking about the density of a watermelon, which has nothing to do with the density of human flesh.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Which is one of the reasons for me sticking with the 45 in auto's.

I'm with you Ray! Have a good night!

[zoid 24]

Brembo Calipers have the best stopping power, IMO of course...

 

 

This is true.

[Malsua 1,422]

the 10mm (.40 short & weak all grown-up)

 

 

10mm fathered .40, not the other way around.

[Shane45 807]

My opinions are largely formed from my time I was part of the Ammolab. We reviewd 1000's of actual shootings, tested the characteristics of the ammo's that were effective, and used that as predictors of new ammo offerings. One thing worthy of note, we accepted no "donations" from ammo manufacturers!!! At any rate I believe in a minimum calber basement AND cieling! Calibers that were at either end of the spectrum had the least effective results. Both for the same reason in my opinion. Lack of transfer of energy to target. I prefer 45's but I would have no problem at all with a 9mm. I prefer the 45 because I prefer 1911's. But in my mind its a basic precept. You have to either hit the central nervouse system or cause enough hydaulic leakage as fast as possible. The advantage a 9mm may afford is simply more chances to make the required hit.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

10mm fathered .40, not the other way around.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. I was just making a joke!

 

The .40 Short & Weak came about because the 10mm was too much recoil & muzzle blast for the FBI to spend the extra training time necessary at the Academy to teach how to properly handle it. And remember that they had to equalize the playing field with smaller-framed trainees from all walks of life. So the .40 is actually a compromise solution after the testing. This too was written about decades ago by Col. Cooper and other notable Experts in the field at the time.

[Zell959 40]

With the development of the 10mm having come up, now seems like a good time to offer up this link for anyone who's never had the chance to read it:

 

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by FBI Special Agent Urey W. Patrick