A Witness Speaks........

[Old School 611]

Here's the ultimate in speculation. There was a struggle for the gun.

[woodentoe 14]

Mark,

 

You bring up an Interesting point about who initiated conflict. With regards to Florida law, this is irrelevant. Stand your ground and self defense do not apply unless you are the aggressor UNLESS you have tried to flee the conflict and retreat and the confronted party restricts your ability to retreat and you have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger if you don't get away or use deadly force to end the confrontation. Let's reread the law.

 

Even if Zimmerman initiated physical contact and Martin proceeded to kick his a**. Is George Zimmerman, when subdued by Martin, now obligated to allow Martin to kill him? This is questionable. I think z has a hard road ahead, but I don't think they will be able to charge him.

[MarkWVU02 47]

Mark,

 

You bring up an Interesting point about who initiated conflict. With regards to Florida law, this is irrelevant. Stand your ground and self defense do not apply unless you are the aggressor UNLESS you have tried to flee the conflict and retreat and the confronted party restricts your ability to retreat and you have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger if you don't get away or use deadly force to end the confrontation. Let's reread the law.

 

Even if Zimmerman initiated physical contact and Martin proceeded to kick his a**. Is George Zimmerman, when subdued by Martin, now obligated to allow Martin to kill him? This is questionable. I think z has a hard road ahead, but I don't think they will be able to charge him.

 

Excellent post thanks for the info. This is what I hope to learn in a debate like this. Regardless of the outcome two lives have been ruined forever.

 

I wonder what kind of affect this will have on the self defense and SYG laws in Florida

[MarkWVU02 47]

Here's the ultimate in speculation. There was a struggle for the gun.

 

That's definitely quite possible. Zimmerman pulls the gun and now Martin fights for his life. That's an interesting scenario because if Z pulled the gun before the attack (maybe to hold him until police arrived) and a fight for the gun ensues it could change a lot. I'd like Woodentoe to chime in as to how Fla law would apply in a case like that.

[johnp 45]

Here's is something I just thought of, if Trayvon was scared because some guy was following him, why didn't he call 911 himself? And simply say some weird old guy is following me in his car, I don't know what I should do.

[MarkWVU02 47]

Here's is something I just thought of, if Trayvon was scared because some guy was following him, why didn't he call 911 himself? And simply say some weird old guy is following me in his car, I don't know what I should do.

 

This has been discussed in one of these threads. I feel a lot of teenagers, especially African-Americans, have a distrust of the police. Maybe he thought he could get away. Maybe he just half thought the guy was following him. We'll probably never know.

 

I remember when i was a teenager we were hanging out on the main street in town one night. My buddy and I went down to the store and witnessed this guy beating the shit out of his girlfriend. we intervened and stopped him. The girl ran off and we were left arguing with this guy. A few of our friends saw what was happening and came over. Things started to get tense when the cops showed up. funny thing the police started coming at us threatening arrest if we didn't leave the guy alone. It took a while to explain and the location of the girl to corroborate our story before things cooled down. we were amazed at how quick they came at us despite the fact that it was one of our friends who called them. of course this was before cell phones and the call came from the payphone across the street..

[MarkWVU02 47]

Wow this one is just ridiculous...I'm sure you'll all agree. Of course from the New Jersey news media.

 

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/03/despite_trayvon_martin_cases_l.html

[Krdshrk 3,883]

Objective press.... suuuuuuure. Libtarded media.

 

I did put up a comment.

[woodentoe 14]

 

That's definitely quite possible. Zimmerman pulls the gun and now Martin fights for his life. That's an interesting scenario because if Z pulled the gun before the attack (maybe to hold him until police arrived) and a fight for the gun ensues it could change a lot. I'd like Woodentoe to chime in as to how Fla law would apply in a case like that.

 

I think in this case, the entire self defense "defense" may go out the window for the following reason.

 

I have to read the law again, but I believe that in order to claim self defense, one must not be in the commission of a crime. If Zimmerman brandished his firearm in order to intimidate Martin into submission, he would have illegally drawn his weapon. At that point, trayvon Martin would be the one standing his ground and Zimmerman possibly guilty of unlawful homicide.

 

Granted, this scenario presupposes that Zimmerman pulled his gun initially contrary to his defense that he drew and fired to stop the threat.

[johnp 45]

 

[Nj.com]

The firearms allegedly found inside Dustin Reininger's SUV on display at the Hunterdon County courthouse.

 

And this picture correlates with the article you are making up, how? I hate this state.

[Kaiser7 33]

This has been discussed in one of these threads. I feel a lot of teenagers, especially African-Americans, have a distrust of the police. Maybe he thought he could get away. Maybe he just half thought the guy was following him. We'll probably never know.

 

I remember when i was a teenager we were hanging out on the main street in town one night. My buddy and I went down to the store and witnessed this guy beating the shit out of his girlfriend. we intervened and stopped him. The girl ran off and we were left arguing with this guy. A few of our friends saw what was happening and came over. Things started to get tense when the cops showed up. funny thing the police started coming at us threatening arrest if we didn't leave the guy alone. It took a while to explain and the location of the girl to corroborate our story before things cooled down. we were amazed at how quick they came at us despite the fact that it was one of our friends who called them. of course this was before cell phones and the call came from the payphone across the street..

 

I've called the police when I saw suspicious activity in my neighborhood. Our power was out for 4 days in a row, no streetlamps, phones, or anything (well, on OUR half of the street, right around a bend in the street they were fine.) But after about two days word got around we were without power, and people started breaking into cars in our area. Hell, I came pretty close to calling the police last night when I heard a woman screaming for help, and a guy yelling. IIRC it was 2AM. I didn't bother going out to see what was happening because of this case. As far as I'm concerned, with all the flak Z has been getting, if that woman was being attacked, it's her fault, I'm not risking my a** to help anyone.

[MarkWVU02 47]

I think in this case, the entire self defense "defense" may go out the window for the following reason.

 

I have to read the law again, but I believe that in order to claim self defense, one must not be in the commission of a crime. If Zimmerman brandished his firearm in order to intimidate Martin into submission, he would have illegally drawn his weapon. At that point, trayvon Martin would be the one standing his ground and Zimmerman possibly guilty of unlawful homicide.

 

Granted, this scenario presupposes that Zimmerman pulled his gun initially contrary to his defense that he drew and fired to stop the threat.

 

The problem with that theory is with martin dead there would be no way to ever know. Let's say Zimmerman grabbed him and tried to hold him there without pulling the gun would the detainment be considered a crime? Let's say Zimmerman walks up behind Martin. Words are spoken. Martin turns to run. Zimmerman grabs to hold him there for the police. Martin punches fight ensues yada yada yada. What do you think would be the case there? Just interested in knowing how it would play out in different scenarios

[MarkWVU02 47]

I've called the police when I saw suspicious activity in my neighborhood. Our power was out for 4 days in a row, no streetlamps, phones, or anything (well, on OUR half of the street, right around a bend in the street they were fine.) But after about two days word got around we were without power, and people started breaking into cars in our area. Hell, I came pretty close to calling the police last night when I heard a woman screaming for help, and a guy yelling. IIRC it was 2AM. I didn't bother going out to see what was happening because of this case. As far as I'm concerned, with all the flak Z has been getting, if that woman was being attacked, it's her fault, I'm not risking my a** to help anyone.

 

I still don't see what Trayvon was doing that was so suspicious, and that's where this all begins. Why is a kid walking down the street on a rainy night with his hood up suspicious?

 

I almost called the cops one night for the same reason...girl screaming, guy yelling...but when i muted my TV I realized it was my neighbor (i'm in an apartment) banging some chick...loud man...sounded pretty crazy

[MarkWVU02 47]

Honestly though if she was screaming for help I'd probably call 911... you don't have to strap on your gun and give chase to help out...

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Zombie thread? Where ? I didn't get to read it.

 

Here I'll save you all some time -

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/13778-ray-rays-zombie-apocolypse-thread/

 

Much to learn Harry, Rick and Sandy. -1s for you all.

[woodentoe 14]

 

The problem with that theory is with martin dead there would be no way to ever know. Let's say Zimmerman grabbed him and tried to hold him there without pulling the gun would the detainment be considered a crime? Let's say Zimmerman walks up behind Martin. Words are spoken. Martin turns to run. Zimmerman grabs to hold him there for the police. Martin punches fight ensues yada yada yada. What do you think would be the case there? Just interested in knowing how it would play out in different scenarios

 

With all due respect, I didn't offer a theory. You asked how the law would affect z if he had pulled his gun before the altercation with regards to syg and self defense. I offered my interpretation.

 

If Zimmerman brandished a firearm illegally at the outset, he is in the commission of a crime. You offered an awful lot of "what ifs" in your response post.

 

If Zimmerman put his hands on Martin first, he is the aggressor. Martin may defend himself and stand his ground. However, once Martin gains the upper hand and is in a position to kill Zimmerman, zim is protected under self defense if he attempts to flee but is restricted from retreat by martins blows. If Zimmerman reasonably believed he would be killed if he didn't use deadly force(since he couldn't retreat), he should be protected under syg. Unless you believe that George Zimmerman should have allowed trayvon martin to kill him because he was "wrong" for initiating the conflict.

 

If it is true that Zimmerman was subdued, prevented from retreating and was in danger of death then deadly force may have been justified.

[MarkWVU02 47]

With all due respect, I didn't offer a theory. You asked how the law would affect z if he had pulled his gun before the altercation with regards to syg and self defense. I offered my interpretation.

 

If Zimmerman brandished a firearm illegally at the outset, he is in the commission of a crime. You offered an awful lot of "what ifs" in your response post.

 

Sorry about my wording i didn't mean you offered a theory...poor choice of wording. Just wondering how it could play out in different scenarios. My response was basically another scenario that could have happened (not that it is likely). Basically just interested in how these laws work.

[woodentoe 14]

 

Sorry about my wording i didn't mean you offered a theory...poor choice of wording. Just wondering how it could play out in different scenarios. My response was basically another scenario that could have happened (not that it is likely). Basically just interested in how these laws work.

 

NATCH!

 

See above for edited post.

 

Keep in mind that what we THINK transpired and what we FEEL about the case matter not at all. The only relevant thing is what can be PROVEN about what transpired in a court of law.

[MarkWVU02 47]

Oh yeah I know just trying to gain a better understanding of the laws. Interesting because even if he was the aggressor it seems that once Martin was on top of him bashing his head to the ground it doesn't really matter because in the end you have the right to defend yourself. Interesting...unless I'm off here. Thanks for the responses.

[MarkWVU02 47]

This is pretty interesting

 

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16022897&sid=3029898

[Kaiser7 33]

Damn. Just imagine if this happened in NJ. Haha, with NJ's laws you could probably be shot first, and still be given trouble if you killed your attacker.

[Maksim 1,504]

Mark, I was not calling your a Nazi or a Fascist, mearely pointing out what I think of your suggestion... "have a trial to figure it out"

 

We cannot afford to go down that road if you can arrest people just to figure something out. The whole point of it.... you are speculating and trying to give this kid every excuse in the book when it does not matter.

 

the only factors that matter to this case is, if Travyon, or whatever it is, attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman was fully right to use deadly force. End of story. Even if Zimmerman went up to the kid to talk to him, or figure out what he was doing, if T attacked Zimmerman, nothing else matters.

 

What T's side has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt is that Zimmerman was not defending himself and wanted to kill T. And if there not enough evidence to warrant a trial, then no charges should be filed. The prosecutors not throwing charges immediately are the ones that should be praised for doing an investigation. But the whole mentality of charge him anyway, and we will figure it out in court is purely un-American, and reflective of the slippery slope of how Jews and others were treated by dictators and fascists.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

But the whole mentality of charge him anyway, and we will figure it out in court is purely un-American, and reflective of the slippery slope of how Jews and others were treated by dictators and fascists.

 

Had to +1 ya for this, the other parts were good also, but THIS!!!

[MarkWVU02 47]

You keep claiming Zimmemann was attacked and there is no concrete evidence.

 

Here's a link with video of Zimmerman shortly after being brought to the station. He doesn't look beat nearly to death I can't see a scratch or any blood. His nose doesn't look broken to me.

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-zimmerman-video-20120329,0,7952997.story

 

If he was beaten half to death as some of you claim why didn't he check into an emergency room after being questioned. If your head was being "bashed" against the ground repeatedly don't you think you'd worry about a possible concussion. It just doesn't add up to me and apparently many other people in this country. I don't think there's enough evidence not to at least go before a grand jury. Why would the lead investigator think so. We're not talking about the first time this guy's been in police custody and got off. The whole he got attacked story just sounded formulated to me from day one. Of course that's what you'd say if you shot somebody. There have been threads on here where it's been said that you always claim you had no further choice then to shoot. You all make it sound like a closed case. I really don't think it is.

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Had to +1 ya for this, the other parts were good also, but THIS!!!

 

The problem is apparently there was enough to charge him with according to the lead investigator.

[Maksim 1,504]

You keep claiming Zimmemann was attacked and there is no concrete evidence.

 

Here's a link with video of Zimmerman shortly after being brought to the station. He doesn't look beat nearly to death I can't see a scratch or any blood. His nose doesn't look broken to me.

 

http://www.latimes.c...0,7952997.story

 

If he was beaten half to death as some of you claim why didn't he check into an emergency room after being questioned. If your head was being "bashed" against the ground repeatedly don't you think you'd worry about a possible concussion. It just doesn't add up to me and apparently many other people in this country. I don't think there's enough evidence not to at least go before a grand jury. Why would the lead investigator think so. We're not talking about the first time this guy's been in police custody and got off. The whole he got attacked story just sounded formulated to me from day one. Of course that's what you'd say if you shot somebody. There have been threads on here where it's been said that you always claim you had no further choice then to shoot. You all make it sound like a closed case. I really don't think it is.

 

Once again, what evidence is there that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon.

 

Secondly, he was treated on the scene, and then went back to ER the next day.

 

I watched the video, and you can't see squat. The only thing I see are stitches or something like that on the back of his head, and a nose that looks swollen.

 

The lead investigator's job is to investigate... the prosecutor, you know, the one that deals with the law, as per that article, does not believe there is enough.

 

We are in America, people sometimes get away with stuff, but if we charged just anyone because "we felt there was enough" there would be alot more innocent people in jail.

 

And to be quite frank, most of America is a bunch of uninformed fools who turn on the news and see the talking heads trying to rant for ratings. The same fools who think anyone with a firearm is a thug.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

The problem is apparently there was enough to charge him with according to the lead investigator.

 

Oh why am I even getting into this..

 

So he was initially charged and arrested????

 

Or are is it now being looked at because it's now in the publics eyes???

 

Mark, I really think you and everyone else who is taking side and seem to be defending their position like they were there need to relax for a while and see where is goes first.

 

Also just thing about anytime the media reports something about your work, or something you have actual factual knowledge about and tell me how many times they get it right??? Your move..

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Once again, what evidence is there that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon.

 

Secondly, he was treated on the scene, and then went back to ER the next day.

 

I watched the video, and you can't see squat. The only thing I see are stitches or something like that on the back of his head, and a nose that looks swollen.

 

The lead investigator's job is to investigate... the prosecutor, you know, the one that deals with the law, as per that article, does not believe there is enough.

 

We are in America, people sometimes get away with stuff, but if we charged just anyone because "we felt there was enough" there would be alot more innocent people in jail.

 

And to be quite frank, most of America is a bunch of uninformed fools who turn on the news and see the talking heads trying to rant for ratings. The same fools who think anyone with a firearm is a thug.

 

Stitches in the back of his head? A swollen nose? Come on man I can't see any of that. No bloods stains. No grass stains. His shirt and jacket are all neat. He seems calm and composed. Doesn't look like a guy that just fought for his life.

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Oh why am I even getting into this..

 

So he was initially charged and arrested????

 

Or are is it now being looked at because it's now in the publics eyes???

 

Mark, I really think you and everyone else who is taking side and seem to be defending their position like they were there need to relax for a while and see where is goes first.

 

Also just thing about anytime the media reports something about your work, or something you have actual factual knowledge about and tell me how many times they get it right??? Your move..

 

He's brought into the station in cuffs which would indicate he was initially arrested.

 

I'm not saying he's guilty but come on you can't honestly believe without a reasonable doubt that this man is 100% innocent?

[NicePants 58]

He's brought into the station in cuffs which would indicate he was initially arrested.

 

I'm not saying he's guilty but come on you can't honestly believe without a reasonable doubt that this man is 100% innocent?

 

Goes the other way too. It's easy to condemn the man because of how he has been painted by the media and how the facts have looked up to now, but honestly, erring on either side of the case at this point is fallacious. There is just way too much misrepresentation and way too much misdirection going on.