PLease Tell me again why we don't deserve CCW

[Brisco 130]

http://www.msnbc.msn...k-attempt-cops/

 

 

Am I crazy to think this may have a different ending very soon? Not a good one.

[Kaiser7 33]

http://www.msnbc.msn...k-attempt-cops/

 

 

Am I crazy to think this may have a different ending very soon? Not a good one.

 

I was actually expecting the story to be about her being arrested for carrying a lawful weapon illegally, after using it to defend herself.

 

Then again, they'll never come out and say whether the perp's gun was legal, which I doubt it was. I'm sure the politicians will cite this as an example of how the citizens don't need weapons to defend themselves.

[deadeye74 5]

They were lucky the two shots were fired into the ground. Sounds like amateur hour on the part of the criminals.

 

I like how the one guy had on an ankle bracelet but no one at the monitoring center caught he was out in the street!

 

Personally, I think it was a very risky call on the part of the mom driving away while a guy with a gun was attempting to car jack her. If I were in the car alone, I would have hit the gas and drove like hell. With kids in the car, it's definitely a different situation. If the gunman decided to start shooting at the car while it was driving away, he could have hit one of the kids, especially if they were in the back seat.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Great composure by the mother and good job to all the police involved.

[deadeye74 5]

Back to the question in your topic title, we do deserve it! The problem is the politicians who view a situation like this as "see, they didn't need a gun to defend themselves"

[jcpg 4]

Deadeye have you ever been carjacked? Why is her fleeing with the kids a different story? Seems like she made a good decision. No one got hurt and the stupid criminals are going to get a** jacked very soon.

[Soju 153]

Wait, I'm confused here. How did this guy have a gun with him to begin with? Surely he couldn't have a permit in NJ, so I just don't understand how he had a gun. It isn't possible to have one because it is illegal right?

 

 

Yes, I am being sarcastic, and no, I am not actually confused.

[deadeye74 5]

Deadeye have you ever been carjacked? Why is her fleeing with the kids a different story? Seems like she made a good decision. No one got hurt and the stupid criminals are going to get a** jacked very soon.

 

I have never been car jacked. Here is how I look at it. I'm sitting in my car and a person puts a gun up to my window and tells me to get out. In the passenger seat next to me is one child, in the back seat is the other. If I hit the gas to take off, there is a chance the gunman will fire either out of aggravation of me leaving or as a response to the sound of screeching tires and reving engine. Even if one shot is fired, there is a big chance it will hit the vehicle passenger compartment, go through the car body and possibly hit someone inside. Another possibility is the shot is fired and possibly punctures a tire or hits the car in a way that will slow me down or render the car inoperable. If I'm slowed down or stopped, who's to say the perp doesn't walk up and unload his weapon out of frustration?

 

If I'm alone in the car And I was put in the situation, I would have hands down hit the gas and ran. I would not be worried about passengers being shot or injured due to very aggressive driving to flee.

 

I'm not saying she's wrong for taking off, I'm saying it seems like a risk. I have one young daughter and I pray that we are ever put in a situation like this.

[Maksim 1,504]

Wait, I'm confused here. How did this guy have a gun with him to begin with? Surely he couldn't have a permit in NJ, so I just don't understand how he had a gun. It isn't possible to have one because it is illegal right?

 

 

Yes, I am being sarcastic, and no, I am not actually confused.

 

LOL.

 

What is really scary, is the fact of where this happened.

 

More and more incidents like this happening, really begs the question, wtf are we doing in this state, and wtf is the government doing to protect us? Exactly squat.

[jcpg 4]

 

 

I have never been car jacked. Here is how I look at it. I'm sitting in my car and a person puts a gun up to my window and tells me to get out. In the passenger seat next to me is one child, in the back seat is the other. If I hit the gas to take off, there is a chance the gunman will fire either out of aggravation of me leaving or as a response to the sound of screeching tires and reving engine. Even if one shot is fired, there is a big chance it will hit the vehicle passenger compartment, go through the car body and possibly hit someone inside. Another possibility is the shot is fired and possibly punctures a tire or hits the car in a way that will slow me down or render the car inoperable. If I'm slowed down or stopped, who's to say the perp doesn't walk up and unload his weapon out of frustration?

 

If I'm alone in the car And I was put in the situation, I would have hands down hit the gas and ran. I would not be worried about passengers being shot or injured due to very aggressive driving to flee.

 

I'm not saying she's wrong for taking off, I'm saying it seems like a risk. I have one young daughter and I pray that we are ever put in a situation like this.

 

 

If you think you can trust a carjacker or any criminal who accepted murder as a "part of the job" and allow him to wave a gun at you while you nervously take your daughter out of the car seat your dead wrong. The millisecond you are out of the driver seat he's already in there. Your daughter means nothing to him and that decision of life or death is all his. If you took 2 seconds longer than he wanted to your daughter is going with him dead or alive. I'll take my chances as a marksman and be a moving target instead of letting my 2 year old sit helpless in the back seat.

 

[deadeye74 5]

 

 

If you think you can trust a carjacker or any criminal who accepted murder as a "part of the job" and allow him to wave a gun at you while you nervously take your daughter out of the car seat your dead wrong. The millisecond you are out of the driver seat he's already in there. Your daughter means nothing to him and that decision of life or death is all his. If you took 2 seconds longer than he wanted to your daughter is going with him dead or alive. I'll take my chances as a marksman and be a moving target instead of letting my 2 year old sit helpless in the back seat.

 

Let me ask you this. Have you had a gun pulled on you? I shoot regularly with retired LEOs at my range. They have said that regardless of how good a shot you are, when your put in the situation having a gun pulled on you, it's all different. Guys that were marksman with pistols out to 50 yards would miss in a firefight 10 feet from the target.

 

If you look back to my original posts in this thread you will see I referred to this incident as armature hour. A professional car jacker would have waited till the target car was boxed in so there was no easy escape. Not to mention that these people often work in teams so who's to say there isn't a second gun pointed on you?

 

Honestly, even if I could carry and was put in the situation and had my kids in the car it's still something I would have to think twice about.

 

Sorry if it seems this thread is derailing!

[Malsua 1,422]

I'm not saying she's wrong for taking off, I'm saying it seems like a risk.

 

The FBI has kept statistics on shootings. The number one key to avoid being shot is distance. 90% of all shootings occur within 21 feet. 90% of all fatal shootings occur within 10 feet.

 

An ordinary car can be 30 feet away within 2 seconds if you floor it. A performance car will be 50 feet away in 2 seconds.

 

It is nearly impossible to disable a car with a handgun.

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

LOL.

 

What is really scary, is the fact of where this happened.

 

More and more incidents like this happening, really begs the question, wtf are we doing in this state, and wtf is the government doing to protect us? Exactly squat.

 

There is nothing surprising about this. Jersey gardens is a ghetto shithole that is frequented by skells and gangbangers. I refuse to let my wife go to this place alone for her own safety. When I worked in that area there was always something going on in or around there. The mall sucks, the area sucks....it should just be converted into more container terminal.

Carjackings are really on the rise. We have had a huge spike in this area since the beginning of the year. Bunch of towns in Hudson have increased the size of the auto theft task forces in response to the carjackings. A lot in nice parts of jersey city, Hoboken and weehawken. All taken at gunpoint.

 

Just be aware of your surroundings and keep your doors locked.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

And THIS is why I hate going to Jersey Gardens.

[deadeye74 5]

The FBI has kept statistics on shootings. The number one key to avoid being shot is distance. 90% of all shootings occur within 21 feet. 90% of all fatal shootings occur within 10 feet.

 

An ordinary car can 30 feet away within 2 seconds if you floor it. A performance car will be 50 feet away in 2 seconds.

 

It is nearly impossible to disable a car with a handgun.

 

There are a whole number of parameters that could effect how a situation like this could turn out. I'm not going to sit here and list all the what ifs. The body's natural fight or flight would take over. We can all sit here and go back and forth over this for the next century but until one of us are put in the situation I don't believe anyone can honestly say what would happen to them in this situation. A trained LEO or someone with military training will react different than a house wife or a doctor.

 

Again, congrats to the woman who got away. I'm not calling her choice bad, just risky. Arm chairing this situation is easy, surviving it in real life is a different story!

[Brisco 130]

Maybe I am over simplifying the issue. It just seems to me if we had the right to defend ourself, maybe the criminals would think twice before attempting something like this. Or maybe there would be a few less criminals if they did try.

[deadeye74 5]

Maybe I am over simplifying the issue. It just seems to me if we had the right to defend ourself, maybe the criminals would think twice before attempting something like this. Or maybe there would be a few less criminals if they did try.

 

I agree. Getting back to the original purpose of this thread, if we had CCW I believe in time the bad guys would get a message that they might be eating lead instead of driving off in a jacked BMW. If it passed today, I say it would take a year or so and some bad guys being met with the barrel of a gun for word to spread through the criminal world that us ordinary folks are not gonna get stepped on any more.

[fumanchu182 23]

I agree. Getting back to the original purpose of this thread, if we had CCW I believe in time the bad guys would get a message that they might be eating lead instead of driving off in a jacked BMW. If it passed today, I say it would take a year or so and some bad guys being met with the barrel of a gun for word to spread through the criminal world that us ordinary folks are not gonna get stepped on any more.

 

Or conversely since they know we are packing they get stronger guns hoping to intimidate. Just playing devil's advocate. I'm all for CCW.

[Kaiser7 33]

The FBI has kept statistics on shootings. The number one key to avoid being shot is distance. 90% of all shootings occur within 21 feet. 90% of all fatal shootings occur within 10 feet.

 

An ordinary car can be 30 feet away within 2 seconds if you floor it. A performance car will be 50 feet away in 2 seconds.

 

It is nearly impossible to disable a car with a handgun.

 

The point is not, necessarily what to do when in a car. Someone tried getting in my car when I was on my way to Rowan's Camden campus, and I did choose to floor it. However, let's change the situation where this woman was just about to get into the car with her kids, or was otherwise outside the vehicle. When you're not surrounded by a 5,000lb metal shell capable of going 100mph, it's a different ballgame. Distance may be key, but unless you're the Flash, you're not getting outside of that 21 foot range faster than a bullet.

 

Personally, I think we should find out (read, prove) this guy had a gun illegally, and then raise a huge crap-storm about illegal gun ownership, and be very vocal at our surprise that he was able to get a gun when our state is so strict on "gun crime".

[BlueLineFish 615]

If your outside or just getting in the car, just give the car up. It's not worth it. Better to walk away than lose your life.

[deadeye74 5]

 

Or conversely since they know we are packing they get stronger guns hoping to intimidate. Just playing devil's advocate. I'm all for CCW.

 

Interesting point. I say legal ccw folks still hold the upper hand. While Mr. Gangster is trying to look all cool holding his 45 sideways, people like us who go to the range and practice would probably be more effective delivering a proper placed shot out of a 380 or 9mm.

[BarkNBite 15]

 

 

"Cause we can throw stuff instead.............

[fumanchu182 23]

Interesting point. I say legal ccw folks still hold the upper hand. While Mr. Gangster is trying to look all cool holding his 45 sideways, people like us who go to the range and practice would probably be more effective delivering a proper placed shot out of a 380 or 9mm.

 

But this contradicts what you said earlier:

Let me ask you this. Have you had a gun pulled on you? I shoot regularly with retired LEOs at my range. They have said that regardless of how good a shot you are, when your put in the situation having a gun pulled on you, it's all different. Guys that were marksman with pistols out to 50 yards would miss in a firefight 10 feet from the target.

[RedBowTies88 41]

An ordinary car can be 30 feet away within 2 seconds if you floor it. A performance car will be 50 feet away in 2 seconds.

 

I can travel 60' In exactly 1.63 seconds if the road surface is half decent. I don't think the carjacker would take to kindly to the sound of the turbo spooling up though.

 

Glad they got away clean, I agree that with kids in the car thats the only choice she had. By yourself then letting the car go may of been an option but definitely not with the kids with you.

[BlueLineFish 615]

There a a few issues. In a stressful situation many people freeze up. Ccw does you no good there. People don't know how to handle stressful situations. Ccw might get you killed if you don't know how to properly act. How many people practice shooting enough to be good. Out of that number how many people shoot under stress. While I am for ccw one has to realize it is not the solution to the problem and in some situations may be made worse. With all that one should have the right to defend themselves and their property but have to realizes the risks associated with this

[deadeye74 5]

 

But this contradicts what you said earlier:

 

Allow me to correct myself: a trained, legal ccw holder that practices has better odds of hitting their target than someone who does not train and practice. Stress will be a major factor as to the outcome of the situation however training should increase the odds of being effective.

 

I would love to take a class that runs simulations on this. I'm curious to know how exactly I would react. Granted knowing it would be a simulation, at least I would get some insight on my reaction.

[Kaiser7 33]

Here, I made this topic to show why we don't need CCW in NJ.

 

http://njgunforums.c...__fromsearch__1

[BlueLineFish 615]

Simunitions is great training. It is real enough to give you an idea of stress and the pain of those rounds is an added incentive. I have dozens of scars from those things. Lessons learned

[jcpg 4]

 

 

There are a whole number of parameters that could effect how a situation like this could turn out. I'm not going to sit here and list all the what ifs. The body's natural fight or flight would take over. We can all sit here and go back and forth over this for the next century but until one of us are put in the situation I don't believe anyone can honestly say what would happen to them in this situation. A trained LEO or someone with military training will react different than a house wife or a doctor.

 

Again, congrats to the woman who got away. I'm not calling her choice bad, just risky. Arm chairing this situation is easy, surviving it in real life is a different story!

 

Yes i was a victim of an attempted carjacking which mimics this situation. The carjackers Glock was 2 feet from my 2 year old daughters head when they tried to block me in a corner of a 4 lane intersection. I was on my way home when i noticed a car taking 3 turns in sync with me despite me not signaling. If it weren't for my situational awareness things could've ended differently. As I approached a light on a 4 way intersection I simply didnt allow him to block me. I stopped in the middle of the lane instead of the line divider. The extra 2 feet between my car and the curb helped me get a better line of escape without them completely blocking me in. They came around my car and a gunman kicked the back door open fully masked in all black with a both hands already on his Glock. As he took his first step my first reaction was to get my daughter out of harms way. I didn't think twice and there wasn't a second I could spare. I put my car on 1st gear and floored it before the guy was able to put his sights up to his eye. This happened to me and my family Nov 15 2011 in Jersey City. Theres no arm chairing here bud. The only difference with my situation is they got got away and never made it to eyewitness news.

[Malsua 1,422]

I can travel 60' In exactly 1.63 seconds if the road surface is half decent. I don't think the carjacker would take to kindly to the sound of the turbo spooling up though.

 

Glad they got away clean, I agree that with kids in the car thats the only choice she had. By yourself then letting the car go may of been an option but definitely not with the kids with you.

 

I used to race and my 60 foot times always told me if I improved torque while the traps indicated horsepower gains if the 60 foots were the same. I was generalizing with my 60 foot times. With a 4000rpm torque converter, the line locks engaged, I could get 1.60 60 foots, but my engine was built more for high rpm HP and did most of the ET in the 2nd half of the quarter to get 11.70s at 125mph.

 

If you are in your vehicle, the instinct should ALWAYS be to gas it and get the hell away. It will take the bad guy at least 500 milliseconds to figure out what is happening and another 250ms to raise his firearm. The chances of getting the shot off, of hitting someone in the vehicle and having it be a fatal hit approach zero after 2 seconds. I'll take that 1.25 second gamble rather than gamble of the benevolence of a guy pointing a gun at me.