Questions about LEO Authorities on Private Property

[XDJohnTact 49]

Years ago (way-way before 9-11) my buddies and I would take out my boat and do a day in NY Harbor. Every time we did this trip we would try and land at the statue of Liberty or Ellis Island. Invariably, we would get a foot or two from the dock and a ranger would come and tell us we could not dock there. We would always look surprised and ask why. They would say something like "Didn't you see the signs"? We always said No, even though they were like 10' by 20'.

[bhunted 887]

I'm not saying we deserved a break, but some of these rangers have a chubby issue. When we got caught, there were many there. The issue wasn't as much as the trespassing, but the destruction of the property. Others would go there and leave litter all over, smoldering fires, you name it. Was a shame. We were being dicks because we asked him nicely to cut us some slack. People fished there for years. We let the fish go, told him we'd never return, showed him we had a garbage bag with our trash we always took with us, etc., he wouldn't bend. We figured we would get fined, so we started acting like typical dicks. Nobody else was caught because he was too lazy to round everyone else up. Oh well.

 

Years ago (way-way before 9-11) my buddies and I would take out my boat and do a day in NY Harbor. Every time we did this trip we would try and land at the statue of Liberty or Ellis Island. Invariably, we would get a foot or two from the dock and a ranger would come and tell us we could not dock there. We would always look surprised and ask why. They would say something like "Didn't you see the signs"? We always said No, even though they were like 10' by 20'.

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[Dan 177]

OP:

 

a) Yes it could be argued that they had PC to be on your property and enter your yard

b) Yes they could have killed your dog if they perceived it to be a threat to them, lots of stuff on the internet around LE killing dogs this way. Bottom line, animals are not people, they are property according to the law. The best you could do would be some sort of monetary compensation for the loss.

c) It all sounds like BS to me, a few fireworks.. really? But on a serious note, that may have been the most exciting call of the day into the PD sooo.... ever hear of "idle hands are the devil's tools". I'll leave it at that.

d) IMO the LEO shouldn't have had his hand on or in the ready position for his sidearm in this situation, but there is nothing you can do about it. Hopefully the kids with LE aspirations as a career will learn from the situation and not do the same thing when the circumstances don't warrant it.

c) Possession and lighting of fireworks is not a felony in NJ, so you may face a fine or whatnot, but you will not loose your R2KBA. Posession with intent or actually selling fireworks is indeed a felony.

d) Install motion lighting and lock all backyard fences when having a party. Both to keep out the bad guys, and to gently pursuade any peace officers to call out and announce their presence before entering, unless they want to start jumping fences of course.

[Xchange1980 0]

Sounds like you got some nosy effin neighbors. Roman Candles dont even make noise. To me alot of people have got there panties in a bunch and dont remember what it was to have fun when you were a kid . Shit every 4th of July me and the majority of my neighbors all blow off fireworks have a bbq and all have a great time . Now if one of my neighbors we to be partying to late at night I would call him/her up and ask them nicely to take it inside and they would but most of the time they take it inside at a respectable time.shit some of the time if i hear them partying outside I go over haha But of course everyone has a di*k neighbor. But I agree with the OP I dont think they should have been lurking in your bushes. I would think they would atleast try and go to the front door before creepin around the house

[Holeshot 3]

LEO involved in a dog shooting:

 

http://videosift.com/video/Reno-911-Assistance-Call

[illy 1]

Re: entering your property- Police cannot enter your property in absence of a warrant, consent or exigent circumstances. Exigent circumstances means: someone is in danger, 'hot pursuit' or the likelihood that evidence of a crime will be lost/destroyed while waiting for a warrant. Not Roman candles...

There may have been a plain sight argument here, but the op stated that the only way the officers could see was to be in his shrubs. Even then, there was no reason to go on his property unannounced. That's way over-stepping.

If an arrest was made or citation issued, even a first year lawyer could've gotten it tossed. If the dog got shot, that's some serious liability for the dept.

[Candide 0]

Might want to put some sort of lock on your gate btw. That way nobody can come waltzing in.

[jrfly3006 42]

Roman candles not dangerous huh? Tell that to an old neighbor of mine who lost his entire house to a fire after a kid shot a roman candle into his second floor window..thats your exigent circumstances..and the argument that the cops would have stayed out of the yard and not done anything because it was locked and would have to get a warrant is completely ridiculous and the dreams of crminal defense lawyers on highway billboards.

[TheDon 3]

Roman candles not dangerous huh? Tell that to an old neighbor of mine who lost his entire house to a fire after a kid shot a roman candle into his second floor window..thats your exigent circumstances..and the argument that the cops would have stayed out of the yard and not done anything because it was locked and would have to get a warrant is completely ridiculous and the dreams of crminal defense lawyers on highway billboards.

I didn't say class C fireworks did not have the potential to cause injury or damage. I said that only a total tard could manage to hurt himself or others. We were not being tards about it. The kids were firing in a direction where the nearest home was 300+ feet away.

 

Irrational fear of fireworks is very similar to irrational fear of firearms.

[illy 1]

 

I didn't say class C fireworks did not have the potential to cause injury or damage. I said that only a total tard could manage to hurt himself or others. We were not being tards about it. The kids were firing in a direction where the nearest home was 300+ feet away.

 

Irrational fear of fireworks is very similar to irrational fear of firearms.

 

jrfly3006's comment was probably directed to me. I'd like to see the judge that thinks a DP complaint about

class c fireworks trumps the 4th amendment.

[Soju 153]

jrfly3006's comment was probably directed to me. I'd like to see the judge that thinks a DP complaint about

class c fireworks trumps the 4th amendment.

 

I wouldn't like to see that at all, but I imagine that isn't uncommon.

[silverado427 10,776]

Some Neighbors just suck, They don't have a clue . they think life revolves around them. I've always been the guy to go over and say something nice about the situation, But it always back fired on me, and I was the bad guy. FTS . The POS down the street from me had a B-day party for their 16 year old daughter. They had the music blasting from 1:pm to 8:30 when the police told them to knock it off. I seen kids down the street smoking weed and drinking , half of the people at the party were adults. They didn't care about what anybody thought... just venting...

[Soju 153]

Nobody likes constant loud noise when they are trying to sleep.

Nobody likes being told to be quiet when they are having a good time and things get loud.

If things are loud and it isn't ridiculously late at night, and it annoys you to the point where you feel you need to call the cops, well I hope you never have a good time and get loud.

 

Of course there is a difference between having an occasional party and being loud at decent hours, on the weekend, etc, and being continually loud all the time, super late at night.

 

There is a balance between enjoying yourself and having respect for your neighbors. There is a balance between putting up with noise, and being the douchey neighbor who immediately complains.

 

I know I've been very annoyed with neighbors being loud when I'm trying to sleep. But I'm not about to start a dispute about it because I got annoyed. I've had the police called on me a couple times when I was renting a house and threw parties. It was on weekends, and not very late. We quieted down...briefly. Do you think we were as receptive after having to deal with police rather then a neighbor courteously asking to keep the noise down? I'm really not sure honestly. But do you think I'm going to be courteous to them if they have a party sometime and get a bit loud? Doubtful.

 

As for police snooping around your backyard, and opening up a closed gate, for a noise complaint? Not called for. It isn't as if they are investigating a shooting. Now if they tried to knock and nobody answered, or tried to get someones attention first, and had no luck, it becomes understandable.

[GRIZ 3,369]

All good points from the LEO. And I 99.9% agree if the encounter would have been on the street or a crowded neighborhood. But, this was a disorderly person's call, not a criminal call. And this was in the back yard of a 13-year resident of the community. Some things to think about from the citizen's point of view:

 

1. I was able to visually confirm the status of the interviewing officer's sidearm. The patrollman was standing off with his hand either on or inches from his sidearm, blocking my view. I had no idea if his sidearm was secured or if he was ready to rock-n-roll. It was an unnecessarily intimidating posture to assume in a property-owner's back yard. Even my 15-year-old son noticed and asked me afterward, "WTF was up with the rookey with his hand on his gun?"

 

2. What if I had seen the officers lurking in my bushes. From my perspective, it would have been 2 adult males in dark clothing on my property observing a group of teenagers, 4 of whom were females in swimsuits. Things could have escalated into a very dangerous situation.

 

There is a big difference between having your hand on or near your gun and your hand gripping the gun in preparation for a draw. Having your hand on or near your gun is called (as I was taught and taught others) maintaining gun location. It is a commonly taught officer survival technique. It is a deterrent to someone snatching your gun and places your hand nearer to your gun in the event you need to draw. As far feeling iintimidated this may be but here we have an officer doing something he trained to do and apparently didn't let himself go to condition white. There's a lot of talk about LEOs being untrained let's not get wrapped up in criticizing one who is doing something he's taught.

 

I saw nothing done illegally by the police in this situation as its been described in spite of the critics.

 

Your speculation on the "peeping tom" scenario is interesting being you were hosting this event. I think you should give more thought that you could have been charged not only with possession of the fireworks but also contributing to the delinquency of minors and endagering the welfare of minors by letting them set off the fireworks on your property. There's plenty of people on this forum who believe cops should just enforce the law.

 

I would hazard a guess you were very upfront withh these officers and they decided to let it go at a warning. I think if you "said nothing" as many suggest you would either be in the county jail or out on bail. Saying nothing is no the way to handle everything with police. I'm glad you're not in jail for something stupid.

 

I'm not busting your chops only illustrating what could have happened.

 

 

 

 

 

[alec.mc 180]

I wonder what would happen to an open carrying citizen resting his hand on his gun while talking to LEO.

[Candide 0]

Nobody likes constant loud noise when they are trying to sleep.

Nobody likes being told to be quiet when they are having a good time and things get loud.

If things are loud and it isn't ridiculously late at night, and it annoys you to the point where you feel you need to call the cops, well I hope you never have a good time and get loud.

 

Of course there is a difference between having an occasional party and being loud at decent hours, on the weekend, etc, and being continually loud all the time, super late at night.

 

There is a balance between enjoying yourself and having respect for your neighbors. There is a balance between putting up with noise, and being the douchey neighbor who immediately complains.

 

I know I've been very annoyed with neighbors being loud when I'm trying to sleep. But I'm not about to start a dispute about it because I got annoyed. I've had the police called on me a couple times when I was renting a house and threw parties. It was on weekends, and not very late. We quieted down...briefly. Do you think we were as receptive after having to deal with police rather then a neighbor courteously asking to keep the noise down? I'm really not sure honestly. But do you think I'm going to be courteous to them if they have a party sometime and get a bit loud? Doubtful.

 

As for police snooping around your backyard, and opening up a closed gate, for a noise complaint? Not called for. It isn't as if they are investigating a shooting. Now if they tried to knock and nobody answered, or tried to get someones attention first, and had no luck, it becomes understandable.

 

+1 to you. You get "it"

[GRIZ 3,369]

I wonder what would happen to an open carrying citizen resting his hand on his gun while talking to LEO.

 

That would depend on the totality of the circumstances. Any position taken is pure speculation.

[Dan 177]

I wonder what would happen to an open carrying citizen resting his hand on his gun while talking to LEO.

 

Almost all the videos of those 2A activist who get stopped and quested for OC'ing "because they got a call", the cop always asks for them to not touch or make any motions towards their guns while they perform their interview. IMO this is understandable. Lets face it, cops do take a risk being out in the field and are often targets just because of the uniform they wear. They don't know the person, and it only makes prudent sense to take this kind of precaution. I know I would.

[Dan 177]

...........

Your speculation on the "peeping tom" scenario is interesting being you were hosting this event. I think you should give more thought that you could have been charged not only with possession of the fireworks but also contributing to the delinquency of minors and endagering the welfare of minors by letting them set off the fireworks on your property. There's plenty of people on this forum who believe cops should just enforce the law.

 

I would hazard a guess you were very upfront withh these officers and they decided to let it go at a warning. I think if you "said nothing" as many suggest you would either be in the county jail or out on bail. Saying nothing is no the way to handle everything with police. I'm glad you're not in jail for something stupid.

 

I'm not busting your chops only illustrating what could have happened.

 

I agree with this very much so. Selective enforcement is a key tool that LE has available to them. Being a fireworks aficionado myself , I've seen many situations where if the cops wanted to "throw the books" at someone, they would have been in a whole mess of legal trouble. Instead nobody was getting hurt, everyone was calm, cool, and cordial. Cops left issuing a warning, waving have a great night, etc. Way better then being thrown in jail overnight and dealing with legal fees, time off, court dates, fines, etc fighting mountains of BS misdemeanors and maybe even a low level felony charge or two thrown in for good measure (typically to later be used as bargaining chips). Some situations do warrant taking the 5th and acting lawyer-ly with the cops, such as in serious stuff like firearms, etc. Other times with low level stuff like fireworks or loud parties, other types of interactions are typically more fruitful for both parties.

 

The cops were wrong entering the property unannounced if they didn't have PC/RAS to do so. But they could have also made a huge stink over the fireworks resulting in handcuffs. Sometimes things balance out.

[bry@n 195]

I wonder what would happen to an open carrying citizen resting his hand on his gun while talking to LEO.

 

I wonder what would happen in this particular instance if they walked in the yard and saw the homeowner carrying? recipe for disaster if you ask me.

 

 

On another note, if I have an issue with my neighbor, I bring it up to him face to face. I don't feel the need to hide it. if that doesn't solve it, I would call the cops. Generally I have good neighbors but I do have one that infringes upon my property a lot. I just nip it in the bud right away.

 

To the OP, That is why you put the fence on the outside of the shrubs.

[TheDon 3]

I agree with this very much so. Selective enforcement is a key tool that LE has available to them. Being a fireworks aficionado myself , I've seen many situations where if the cops wanted to "throw the books" at someone, they would have been in a whole mess of legal trouble. Instead nobody was getting hurt, everyone was calm, cool, and cordial. Cops left issuing a warning, waving have a great night, etc. Way better then being thrown in jail overnight and dealing with legal fees, time off, court dates, fines, etc fighting mountains of BS misdemeanors and maybe even a low level felony charge or two thrown in for good measure (typically to later be used as bargaining chips). Some situations do warrant taking the 5th and acting lawyer-ly with the cops, such as in serious stuff like firearms, etc. Other times with low level stuff like fireworks or loud parties, other types of interactions are typically more fruitful for both parties.

 

The cops were wrong entering the property unannounced if they didn't have PC/RAS to do so. But they could have also made a huge stink over the fireworks resulting in handcuffs. Sometimes things balance out.

 

Yes, and no.

Yes, honesty is always the best policy and you should certainly never lie to or mislead any LEO.

No, when the interviewing officer is asking leading questions, trying solicit a confession, you do not confess.

If you engage in an intelligent conversation, you can usually let the officer know that you are accepting responsibility for the situation without making statements that will hurt you if you are arrested.

I think behaving in a cooperative and respectful manner (as I did) was key to getting off with a warning. The cops felt confident that I was going to take responsibility and shut the fireworks down, so they let me go with a warning. The fact that fireworks were being set off at at least 3 other neighborhood parties while the cops were in my back yard probably also helped my case a little. ;-)

 

I also suspect that things are different between a small township in South Jersey and a large municipality in North Jersey.

[Dan 177]

Yep, I wasn't implying signing a confession or begging for mercy. Sure you can choose your words wisely " Yes sir, there will be no shenanigans like that going on here this evening, I can assure you". You aren't overly admitting to anything, yet implying that whatever it is they came for will not be happening.

[Njgunowner 2]

Lets see, neighbor complains... Cops arrive... illegal activity going on in the backyard... yep probable cause. Hard to miss roman candles. They could have made your life hell if they wanted to.

[MeansWar 0]

Questioning police behavior when responding to your home with probablr cause ? Maybe you can work this up to having a beer with President Obama.......

[Soju 153]

You phrase it as if asking a question about what is/isn't legal/illegal is a bad thing, and one should immediately and always except how others act, without thought, indiscriminately.

[MeansWar 0]

How do you spell "facetious"?

[Soju 153]

How do you spell "facetious"?

 

Usually something like...

 

 

or

 

 

or something similar. Sorry. I haven't mastered the ability to read inflection and tone from typed text yet. I'm working on it.

 

[MeansWar 0]

No problem.....I haven't ventured into using emoticons....But I thought that the line about "a beer with Obama" would have given it away.....

[MrSurfboard 1]

Off topic, this thread has nothing to do with NJ Gun Laws.

[TheDon 3]

Sorry, completely unfair:

1. not even close to midnight, 9:15, 9:20 at the latest

2. not really being loud, no music, just kid laughing and the fireworks (roman candles are more of a spit a fizzle than an explosion)

3. well-lit backyard: pool lights, patio lights, porch lights. The darkness was in the bushes.

4. not offended by cops behavior in the least, went to great lengths in my OP to express my respect and reiterated in several subsequent posts

Point of post was curiosity over proceedure.

 

This is getting sooo tiring. :thsmiley_deadhorse: