Loaded mags in car...illegal?

[Teky0101 6]

A local gun shop owner told us it was illegal to travel with a loaded magazine in the car.

[Caraj 5]

 

and that is why I have issue with it... if the law is clear enough.. then just follow it..

 

So Im guessing you have loaded mags in your car?

I don't know man, if a nj gun attorney is recommending we don't do that because we can get arrested I'm not sure I want to ignore him

 

[H.M. Murdock 0]

A local gun shop owner told us it was illegal to travel with a loaded magazine in the car.

 

Then correct them and point out the vicious cycle perpetuated by FUD mongering

[djg0770 481]

Look, it's this simple. Whatever you do, do NOT consent to a search, ever. Do NOT disclose you have firearms in the vehicle - you have the RIGHT to refuse to answer any question. DO, keep your big mouth shut.

 

LEO - Sir, may I search your car

YOU - No

LEO - Why?

YOU - Do you have probable cause? It's my right to say no.

[vladtepes 1,060]

So Im guessing you have loaded mags in your car?

I don't know man, if a nj gun attorney is recommending we don't do that because we can get arrested I'm not sure I want to ignore him

 

I live in PA now... but yes when I lived in NJ and went to the range.. I definitely traveled with loaded mags.... the law did not require me to travel with them unloaded.. the problem with doing "extra" is there is no standard... what I mean by that is where does it end..... the law does not say mags must be unloaded.. but you leave them unloaded.. to be on the safe side.. well the law also doesn't say you have to lock the gun case... but maybe you do.. to be safe.. the law also does not say the ammo needs to be locked up..but maybe you do that also...

 

that is the issue... when you start to add in rules... where do you stop? that is why I just follow the law.. as it is written..

[PK90 3,573]

+1billion

 

Sent from my DROID4

 

[Cixelsid 1]

Anyone who owns a gun in NJ should have this memorized.

 

My motorcycle doesn't have a trunk, or saddlebags, or any kind or storage space whatsoever. I usually ride with a backpack on my back.

[Duppie 73]

I live in PA now... but yes when I lived in NJ and went to the range.. I definitely traveled with loaded mags.... the law did not require me to travel with them unloaded.. the problem with doing "extra" is there is no standard... what I mean by that is where does it end..... the law does not say mags must be unloaded.. but you leave them unloaded.. to be on the safe side.. well the law also doesn't say you have to lock the gun case... but maybe you do.. to be safe.. the law also does not say the ammo needs to be locked up..but maybe you do that also...

 

that is the issue... when you start to add in rules... where do you stop? that is why I just follow the law.. as it is written..

 

+1

[millsan1 3]

My feeling on this topic is this:

 

We all stand around and say Molon Labe or From my Cold Dead Hands, indicating a willingness to fight to the death for our rights. This would indicate that we would be in a situation where our guns were illegal and we are willing to go to the bitter end to keep them. Fine.

 

Now, we have a situation where an act is PERFECTLY LEGAL and we are saying "Oh I don't want to do that, I might get in trouble".

 

The two seems to be completely disparate.

 

If you are willing to die for your rights, maybe you ought to be willing to go to court and fight when you have done nothing illegal.

 

So I carry my mags loaded, and I carry a lot of mags. I go to the range to shoot, not load mags. @$15-20 per hour, I am not wasting my time loading. Secondly, I am the kind of guy who will go out of my way to make a point. I would really enjoy the process if an LEO who is not knowledgeable in the laws tried to put me in the slammer over loaded mags. Would it be a pain, yep. Would it cost $, yep. Would I have any recourse against the LEO or the governing body, nope. But I would still be the biggest PITA they ever encountered.

 

my $.02, actually $.01 adjusted for inflation.

[Qel Hoth 33]

 

 

My motorcycle doesn't have a trunk, or saddlebags, or any kind or storage space whatsoever. I usually ride with a backpack on my back.

 

 

Read it again, and notice the small two letter word that begins with o and ends with r.

[Blake 50]

I had no idea when I made this thread it would turn into this lol.

 

The moral I am taking away from this story is that though the law is clear, there are many people (including those in a position that MANY people listen to them) feel that simply followimg the law in nj is not enough, advising to go above and beyond the law to cover ones arse.

 

I personally do not feel compelled to do that considering the ridiculous hoops we already have to jump through. Much the same way I dont drive 35 on a 50mph road to make it balantly clear to an officer that I am not breaking the law.

[Duppie 73]

I had no idea when I made this thread it would turn into this lol.

 

The moral I am taking away from this story is that though the law is clear, there are many people (including those in a position that MANY people listen to them) feel that simply followimg the law in nj is not enough, advising to go above and beyond the law to cover ones arse.

 

I personally do not feel compelled to do that considering the ridiculous hoops we already have to jump through. Much the same way I dont drive 35 on a 50mph road to make it balantly clear to an officer that I am not breaking the law.

It's quite alright.....The same responses,following above and beyond the laws,transporting on motorcycles,Evan Nappen,The mythical traffic stop with loaded mags nightmare scenario,The guy at the gun shop et al comes up every single time this subject is raised .We've all been to this dance before and know all the songs.

[Holeshot 3]

My motorcycle doesn't have a trunk, or saddlebags, or any kind or storage space whatsoever. I usually ride with a backpack on my back.

 

This guy tried to put it in his backpack but it would't fit.

 

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

This guy tried to put it in his backpack but it would't fit.

 

 

 

NOT NJ.. lol

[M4BGRINGO 139]

My feeling on this topic is this:

 

We all stand around and say Molon Labe or From my Cold Dead Hands, indicating a willingness to fight to the death for our rights. This would indicate that we would be in a situation where our guns were illegal and we are willing to go to the bitter end to keep them. Fine.

 

Now, we have a situation where an act is PERFECTLY LEGAL and we are saying "Oh I don't want to do that, I might get in trouble".

 

The two seems to be completely disparate.

 

If you are willing to die for your rights, maybe you ought to be willing to go to court and fight when you have done nothing illegal.

 

So I carry my mags loaded, and I carry a lot of mags. I go to the range to shoot, not load mags. @$15-20 per hour, I am not wasting my time loading. Secondly, I am the kind of guy who will go out of my way to make a point. I would really enjoy the process if an LEO who is not knowledgeable in the laws tried to put me in the slammer over loaded mags. Would it be a pain, yep. Would it cost $, yep. Would I have any recourse against the LEO or the governing body, nope. But I would still be the biggest PITA they ever encountered.

 

my $.02, actually $.01 adjusted for inflation.

Curious about that statement. Police can arrest someone for a law that doesn't exist? All we get is MAYBE we're sorry. Heck, they can make your life miserable for awhile and then tell you to beat the road, no apologies. What is "wrongful arrest"? I had to look it up and see what is was. Found really depressing information too. Seems like those in-charge are always passing rules and laws to cover their asses: This is quoted from Wikipedia: "In the United States and other jurisdictions, police officers and other government officials are shielded from false arrest lawsuits through a process known as qualified immunity. This doctrine protects such officials from liability when engaged in discretionary actions such as arrests of suspects. However, the officer's actions must still not violate "clearly established law," or this protection is void. This includes executing an arrest warrant against the wrong person."

[Soju 153]

Gosh people have a funny view of reality. Judging by posts here, it is almost as if some people think that all wrong doings or mistakes will get made up for in buckets of cash. The reality is, even getting wrong doings corrected at all isn't certain! I highly doubt getting arrested for having loaded mags will make you any money ever. It is much more likely to cost you both time and money though.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Gosh people have a funny view of reality. Judging by posts here, it is almost as if some people think that all wrong doings or mistakes will get made up for in buckets of cash. The reality is, even getting wrong doings corrected at all isn't certain! I highly doubt getting arrested for having loaded mags will make you any money ever. It is much more likely to cost you both time and money though.

 

being fearful of nonexistent laws is ridiculous...

 

"better only travel with unloaded mags... a cop might be uninformed.."

"better to keep guns locked up during travel... just in case the cop thinks that they have to be.."

"better keep guns and ammo in a separate container... what is the cop thinks that is the law.."

"maybe I should disassemble the gun prior to transporting.. just to prove I am being safe... in case the cop thinks that is how it needs to be done.."

 

and so on...

 

you could spend all your life erring on the side of caution.. but the reality is two fold... one is you will never satisfy anything... since the rules you are following are nonexistent... where do you draw the line? maybe just not even bring guns outside... to be safe... and further.. all that concern does NOTHING to buy you any extra safety... the reason is because it is not the law... following the law is the only thing that will keep you out of trouble...

[alowerlevel 77]

The only time all my mags arent loaded is coming home from the range, and thats usually because Ive shot all the ammo I brought with me, lol.

[gunforhire 826]

if you advise them that the LAW says it is legal.. but you recommend to transport them unloaded.. the sure.. you are entitled to your opinion... but I really find it difficult to advise against anything other than the law.. whenever you advise to do more than the law requires it conditions people to accept that as the standard.... and over the course of time you may actually be making things harder... you inform 500 people this is the way you might want to do it.. those 500 people tell 2 people each that they heard it should be done like that... those 2 people each tell 1 person it has to be like that...

 

next thing you know.. there are individuals standing in gun shops telling new gun owners it is the LAW...

 

and that is why I have issue with it... if the law is clear enough.. then just follow it..

 

Yes we always tell our students that loaded mags are legal but in NJ they should always err on the side of caution. I do not want one of my students to be the test case in this wonderful bass ackwards state.

 

Ant

[gunforhire 826]

Curious about that statement. Police can arrest someone for a law that doesn't exist? All we get is MAYBE we're sorry. Heck, they can make your life miserable for awhile and then tell you to beat the road, no apologies. What is "wrongful arrest"? I had to look it up and see what is was. Found really depressing information too. Seems like those in-charge are always passing rules and laws to cover their asses: This is quoted from Wikipedia: "In the United States and other jurisdictions, police officers and other government officials are shielded from false arrest lawsuits through a process known as qualified immunity. This doctrine protects such officials from liability when engaged in discretionary actions such as arrests of suspects. However, the officer's actions must still not violate "clearly established law," or this protection is void. This includes executing an arrest warrant against the wrong person."

 

In 30 plus years in this game I have had over a 1000 students tell me that the local PD told them that hollow points are 100% illegal in NJ. I can recite the 2c code by heart that says otherwise and I then put it in plain english for my students as well. Ever notice whenever you read any criminal article in the news in NJ the press ALWAYS adds that they had hollow points in the house, gun, car, etc, etc?

[vladtepes 1,060]

In 30 plus years in this game I have had over a 1000 students tell me that the local PD told them that hollow points are 100% illegal in NJ. I can recite the 2c code by heart that says otherwise and I then put it in plain english for my students as well. Ever notice whenever you read any criminal article in the news in NJ the press ALWAYS adds that they had hollow points in the house, gun, car, etc, etc?

 

the HP thing is a perfect example... I have heard a million accounts of how illegal they are.. that is kind of my concern with the loaded mags thing... when you comply with laws that are not real you kind of put into motion the thought process that not following this fake rule could get you in trouble... you are honest and educate your students correctly.. but even the notion that it might be a problem creates a feeling that legal or not.. it is a bad idea...

 

your students would be the BEST test case out there... lol I am sure between you and Nappen the state would get straightened out fast enough... arm them with the law... and don't worry about the stuff that is not the law..

[nuclearheli 40]

contained in a closed and fastened case

 

The problem here is a "zipper" on a case is considered a fastened case. If you want to stay out of trouble transport your firearms with trigger locks. I purchased a package of 10 all keyed the same way. Since I have a SUV and no trunk this is the most secure way to transport firearms without getting into trouble if stopped. And a loaded magazine is perfectly acceptable as long as it is not in the gun. No difference between loaded magazines and a box full of 38 specials on moon clips or a speed loader.

[Duppie 73]

contained in a closed and fastened case

 

The problem here is a "zipper" on a case is considered a fastened case. If you want to stay out of trouble transport your firearms with trigger locks. I purchased a package of 10 all keyed the same way. Since I have a SUV and no trunk this is the most secure way to transport firearms without getting into trouble if stopped. And a loaded magazine is perfectly acceptable as long as it is not in the gun. No difference between loaded magazines and a box full of 38 specials on moon clips or a speed loader.

 

The next obvious question is do you know of a documented case of anyone being arrested,tried or convicted of a firearms transport violation solely because firearms were not in a locked case? In the relatively short time I have been a gun owner I have read so many myths,legends,rumors,vagaries,pertaining to firearms and it's laws in NJ that can be dispelled just by answering NO to such questions.

The Nappen name keeps popping up and while he may very well be a pillar, I can't help but think that his stock and trade is well served by keeping these myths going.

Yes we do indeed have asinine and predatory gun laws in NJ with even more to come but let's not bend over backwards for the State to perpetuate a myth... shall we?

[nuclearheli 40]

No actually I don't but I am somewhat familiar with the intent of the wording of some of the laws through a legislative contact I have. Essentially the law was intended to stop the knee jerk violent reaction one might have when confronted with a motor vehicle situation, a.k.a., road rage. Which by the way is very much in the minds of the NJ legislators but that is a topic for another conversation. It also was designed to protect law enforcement by limiting the immediate availability of a firearm when stopped, and to prevent other passengers or individuals with access to the motor vehicle from accessing the firearm while you are driving. The idea is that in the heat of the moment you cannot simply reach into your range bag or gun bag, bag on the back seat and pull out a loaded firearm and start shooting, or your 12 year old you are taking to baseball practice on your way to the range cannot accidentally shoot themselves. Again, the heat of the moment reaction. The law is intended to act much like the PA cooling off period of 3 days wait for a hand gun which is designed to prevent somebody all torqued up to just go into a store, buy a gun and shoot somebody. The hope is that after three days cooler heads prevail. That momentary inability to grab a firearm and start shooting out of anger is what the law is intended to stop. Believe it or not this is one of strongest arguments our legislators have made to stop them from implementing a concealed carry law in NJ.

 

I have also talked to troopers that have confirmed that they only wish to know that people carrying legal firearms do not have quick easy access to a loaded gun. Hence the wording of the law with specific reference to storing it in your trunk.

 

My point before, trigger locks answer this concern and with a secured firearm LE is less concerned and more cooperative. Now these are just some of the thought processes that go into developing some of these laws.

 

Please do not think I in any way agree or support the legislative process that controls our firearms purchase and use in NJ, because I don't. I also don't wish to be the target of a flame out on the forums. Keep in mind our elected officials don't think NJ residents are responsible enough to pump their own gas, unlike 48 other states. What makes you think they will ever allow you to carry a loaded firearm, in your car or tucked into your waist.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Don't mean this to flame - but lets start with your original question about zippers. Yes, it would be considered a fastened case, why wouldn't it be? If they will accept a "securely tied package" why not a zippered case - you are overthinking this. The only mention of locks of any kind in the transport clause of 2C:39 is that of a the locked trunk of an automobile - and the inference there is that if it is carried in a locked trunk, there is no need for a case of any kind. Same applies for ammunition.

 

Speaking to one legislator - unless they were the drafters of the bill - hardly constitutes knowing the "intent" of the law. Fairly obvious that it is intended to impede ready access, but your analogy to the a cooling off period (which PA hasn't used since the implementation of NICS/PICS in 1998) is a bit far reaching. There is no need for trigger locks for transport either.

 

All the reiteration of these myths serves to do is to perpetuate non-existent "laws" and pave the way for them becoming the real thing.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Holeshot 3]

Please do not think I in any way agree or support the legislative process that controls our firearms purchase and use in NJ, because I don't.

 

Not flaming you but you DO support the legislative process that controls our firearms use by putting trigger locks on your firearms when it is not required by law.

[leahcim 680]

Don't mean this to flame - but lets start with your original question about zippers. Yes, it would be considered a fastened case, why wouldn't it be? If they will accept a "securely tied package" why not a zippered case - you are overthinking this. The only mention of locks of any kind in the transport clause of 2C:39 is that of a the locked trunk of an automobile - and the inference there is that if it is carried in a locked trunk, there is no need for a case of any kind. Same applies for ammunition. Speaking to one legislator - unless they were the drafters of the bill - hardly constitutes knowing the "intent" of the law. Fairly obvious that it is intended to impede ready access, but your analogy to the a cooling off period (which PA hasn't used since the implementation of NICS/PICS in 1998) is a bit far reaching. There is no need for trigger locks for transport either. All the reiteration of these myths serves to do is to perpetuate non-existent "laws" and pave the way for them becoming the real thing. Adios, Pizza Bob

 

"closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk" Due to the use of the word "or" any of these options is legal for transport. By the letter of the law, you could put it in clear a zip-lock bag (unloaded, but with rounds in your magazines) on the passenger seat, or they could all be in the trunk with no case whatsoever. I would not want to be the test case for the zip-lock--no traffic-stop LEO needs to know what I have in the car--but it is compliant with my reading of the statute.

[nuclearheli 40]

The

Not flaming you but you DO support the legislative process that controls our firearms use by putting trigger locks on your firearms when it is not required by law.

 

I use trigger locks because I believe it complies with the intent of the current law and because I don't have a trunk in my SUV. I also support all the organizations I possibly can that work hard to change the laws but I am not going to fall on a sword and test the boundaries of the current laws for the sake of the movement. I also need to be very careful and deliberate when assessing firearm laws since I am an FFL and the penalties for things that I may do incorrectly are even worse than what you would experience by not locking up your firearms during transport.

 

I understand that was not a flame.

[Duppie 73]

No actually I don't but I am somewhat familiar with the intent of the wording of some of the laws through a legislative contact I have. Essentially the law was intended to stop the knee jerk violent reaction one might have when confronted with a motor vehicle situation, a.k.a., road rage. Which by the way is very much in the minds of the NJ legislators but that is a topic for another conversation. It also was designed to protect law enforcement by limiting the immediate availability of a firearm when stopped, and to prevent other passengers or individuals with access to the motor vehicle from accessing the firearm while you are driving. The idea is that in the heat of the moment you cannot simply reach into your range bag or gun bag, bag on the back seat and pull out a loaded firearm and start shooting, or your 12 year old you are taking to baseball practice on your way to the range cannot accidentally shoot themselves. Again, the heat of the moment reaction. The law is intended to act much like the PA cooling off period of 3 days wait for a hand gun which is designed to prevent somebody all torqued up to just go into a store, buy a gun and shoot somebody. The hope is that after three days cooler heads prevail. That momentary inability to grab a firearm and start shooting out of anger is what the law is intended to stop. Believe it or not this is one of strongest arguments our legislators have made to stop them from implementing a concealed carry law in NJ.

 

I have also talked to troopers that have confirmed that they only wish to know that people carrying legal firearms do not have quick easy access to a loaded gun. Hence the wording of the law with specific reference to storing it in your trunk.

 

My point before, trigger locks answer this concern and with a secured firearm LE is less concerned and more cooperative. Now these are just some of the thought processes that go into developing some of these laws.

 

Please do not think I in any way agree or support the legislative process that controls our firearms purchase and use in NJ, because I don't. I also don't wish to be the target of a flame out on the forums. Keep in mind our elected officials don't think NJ residents are responsible enough to pump their own gas, unlike 48 other states. What makes you think they will ever allow you to carry a loaded firearm, in your car or tucked into your waist.

Thank you. I am well aware of the law as I've read it in detail and the reasoning behind it is painfully obvious to all but the most obtuse so your well meaning and detailed explanation is unfortunately wasted. My point is we regularly go above and beyond what a law clearly states in the attempt to insure against some scenario that have no basis in fact,law or past history.

We're in a battle to prevent a litany of nonsensical laws right now so why is it we take such pains to abide by one that are not even on the books?

[Holeshot 3]

I use trigger locks because I believe it complies with the intent of the current law and because I don't have a trunk in my SUV. I also support all the organizations I possibly can that work hard to change the laws but I am not going to fall on a sword and test the boundaries of the current laws for the sake of the movement. I also need to be very careful and deliberate when assessing firearm laws since I am an FFL and the penalties for things that I may do incorrectly are even worse than what you would experience by not locking up your firearms during transport.

 

I understand that was not a flame.

 

Fair enough, at the end of the day everyone has to do whatever they are most comfortable with.