Educate me. Why did we give up full auto?

[ryan_j 0]

Simple question. Were people going around and shooting up using machine guns in the United States? Or was this a bone thrown to the antis?

[djg0770 481]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

[Crusher 0]

Same as now. Chicago had too many murders, only in the 20s they used a few tommy guns (ref St. Valentie's massacre) so we had to do something right? In truth, the push was to ban handguns then as well, but that was removed and we were left with SBR, SBS, and automatic all requiring a prohibitive tax. Wait, that sounds familiar too, like Onamacare. Funny, how history repeats.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Same as now. Chicago had too many murders, only in the 20s they used a few tommy guns (ref St. Valentie's massacre) so we had to do something right? In truth, the push was to ban handguns then as well, but that was removed and we were left with SBR, SBS, and automatic all requiring a prohibitive tax. Wait, that sounds familiar too, like Onamacare. Funny, how history repeats.

Thing is in 1934 the $200 tax was out of reach of most people. Today, most people would pay the extra $200 on a $1000-2000 AR to get full auto and SBR. Some states outright restrict all NFA weapons. NJ says you can get a permit for one but in reality no one has one. BTW the application process for a NJ "assault weapon" is the same as applying for a permit for a FA weapon.

 

I can guarantee the $200 doesn't cover the processing cost for a NFA application.

[Sivl32 27]

also because subconsciously we knew we couldnt afford all those bullets so we made excuses to ease out minds out of it.. personally i dont think we need full auto.. too fn expensive

[alec.mc 180]

also because subconsciously we knew we couldnt afford all those bullets so we made excuses to ease out minds out of it.. personally i dont think we need full auto.. too fn expensive

*need*

 

You are starting to sound like them Elvis

[djg0770 481]

oh and this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

 

 

 

Machine Gun Ban

As debate for FOPA was in its final stages in the House before moving on to the Senate, Rep. William J. Hughes (D-N.J.) proposed several amendments including House Amendment 777 to H.R. 4332 ^[4] that would ban a civilian from ownership or transfer rights of any fully automatic weapon which was not registered as of May 19, 1986. The amendment also held that any such weapon manufactured and registered before the May 19 cutoff date could still be legally owned and transferred by civilians.

In the morning hours of April 10, 1986, the House held recorded votes on three amendments to FOPA in Record Vote No's 72, 73, and 74. Recorded Vote 72 was on H.AMDT. 776, an amendment to H.AMDT 770 involving the interstate sale of handguns; while Recorded Vote 74 was on H.AMDT 770, involving primarily the easing of interstate sales and the safe passage provision. Recorded Vote 74 was the controversial Hughes Amendment that called for the banning of machine guns. Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.), at the time presiding as Chairman over the proceedings, claimed that the "amendment in the nature of a substitute, as amended, was agreed to." However, after the voice vote on the Hughes Amendment, Rangel ignored a plea to take a recorded vote and moved on to Recorded Vote 74 where the Hughes Amendment failed.^[5][6] The bill, H.R. 4332, as a whole passed in Record Vote No: 75 on a motion to recommit. Despite the controversial amendment, the Senate, in S.B. 49, adopted H.R. 4332 as an amendment to the final bill. The bill was subsequently passed and signed on May 19, 1986 by President Ronald Reagan to become Public Law 99-308, the Firearms Owners' Protection Act.

[mikeyjones 88]

Thing is in 1934 the $200 tax was out of reach of most people. Today, most people would pay the extra $200 on a $1000-2000 AR to get full auto and SBR. Some states outright restrict all NFA weapons. NJ says you can get a permit for one but in reality no one has one. BTW the application process for a NJ "assault weapon" is the same as applying for a permit for a FA weapon.

 

I can guarantee the $200 doesn't cover the processing cost for a NFA application.

A transferable m16 costs way more than 1-2k. It has to be pre 1986 and no new ones can be added to the registry. So it's not like you can build an ar then decide to make it selective fire.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I only know 1 person who isn't law enforcement in nj with a legal full auto. But it's because of his business

[Carcano 14]

A retired doctor had a large machine gun (legal) collection in South Jersey or so I've been told back in the 70's/80's.

So people can own Pre-86 auto's in the Garden State, but getting a MG license from the Sate isn't easy and out of the reach for most people.

 

 

 

 

Thing is in 1934 the $200 tax was out of reach of most people. Today, most people would pay the extra $200 on a $1000-2000 AR to get full auto and SBR. Some states outright restrict all NFA weapons. NJ says you can get a permit for one but in reality no one has one. BTW the application process for a NJ "assault weapon" is the same as applying for a permit for a FA weapon.

I can guarantee the $200 doesn't cover the processing cost for a NFA application.

 

Cheapest M16 is going to run you around $15K, plus the tax and transfer fees

 

Cheapest Pre-86 Auto is a MAC-10/11 at around $4K-$5K NIB or LNIB.

 

 

I only know 1 person who isn't law enforcement in nj with a legal full auto. But it's because of his business

What kind of business would give you the right in NJ to have a MG? I know certain FFL's are allowed to have them (Pre-86 and Post 86 dealer samples) but that's about it.

[GRIZ 3,369]

A retired doctor had a large machine gun (legal) collection in South Jersey or so I've been told back in the 70's/80's.

So people can own Pre-86 auto's in the Garden State, but getting a MG license from the Sate isn't easy and out of the reach for most people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheapest M16 is going to run you around $15K, plus the tax and transfer fees

 

Cheapest Pre-86 Auto is a MAC-10/11 at around $4K-$5K NIB or LNIB.

 

What kind of business would give you the right in NJ to have a MG? I know certain FFL's are allowed to have them (Pre-86 and Post 86 dealer samples) but that's about it.

Now that you mention it I do remember hearing about a doctor in South Jersey with NFA weapons. This was from a reliable source in the 90s.

 

I was referring to the true value of the gun not the inflated prices caused in 1986. Prior to this you could buy a STEN for a few hundred dollars. Limiting FA weapons was a comprimise to get FOPA passed. The end result is a perfect example of supply and demand

 

Although I see little true need for FA, even for LE, I can't see why you shouldn't be able to have one. State laws aside, if you meet the criteria for buying a firearm from a FFL you can get a NFA weapon.

 

Shawn, I'd also be interested in what kind of business someone is in to have a legal privately owned FA weapon in NJ. IIRC the applicant has to prove to the judge something like "how the interests of the community would be served" by you owning a FA weapon.

 

If you have an FFL for selling NFA weapons you can "own" them because of the FFL.

[AlDente67 563]

The one time I got to play with a full-auto (another state), I ended up killing a lot of tree leaves about 10 feet above the target board.  30 9mm rounds in 3 or 4 seconds.

 

Not something I could afford to load very often.

[GRIZ 3,369]

The one time I got to play with a full-auto (another state), I ended up killing a lot of tree leaves about 10 feet above the target board.  30 9mm rounds in 3 or 4 seconds.

 

Not something I could afford to load very often.

There are some FA guns that are just uncontrollable no matter what you do. There are others that work well. I was required to keep a three rd burst in a 3" circle when I was in MP5 instructors school. Not that hard when you know how and you have the right gun.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

A retired doctor had a large machine gun (legal) collection in South Jersey or so I've been told back in the 70's/80's.

So people can own Pre-86 auto's in the Garden State, but getting a MG license from the Sate isn't easy and out of the reach for most people.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheapest M16 is going to run you around $15K, plus the tax and transfer fees

 

Cheapest Pre-86 Auto is a MAC-10/11 at around $4K-$5K NIB or LNIB.

 

 

What kind of business would give you the right in NJ to have a MG? I know certain FFL's are allowed to have them (Pre-86 and Post 86 dealer samples) but that's about it.

Gun and ammo distributor. Supplies to police departments and gun shops. Has a walk in vault full of guns.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[H.M. Murdock 0]

There are some FA guns that are just uncontrollable no matter what you do.

 

Mipafox in 3..2..1

[GRIZ 3,369]

Gun and ammo distributor. Supplies to police departments and gun shops. Has a walk in vault full of guns.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Then he has a FFL to deal in FA weapons?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Yeah, fa's, semi autos that are legal in other states and of course nj neutered models.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[mipafox 438]

A New Jersey senator made full auto illegal forever more for the entire Nation. Another great contribution from the PRNJ.

 

Mipafox in 3..2..1

 

I really wish people wouldn't summon me on Sundays. The brimstone is really cool and I'm not pushing much of it around

OK, fine

 

There are some FA guns that are just uncontrollable no matter what you do. There are others that work well. I was required to keep a three rd burst in a 3" circle when I was in MP5 instructors school. Not that hard when you know how and you have the right gun.

 

Question - What is the best drill for tightening up 3-round bursts? If you can answer that question, you will know everything you ever need to know about machineguns.

Anyway, here is old video that I happened to look up earlier today in the AR thread LOL

http://vimeo.com/9718720

[ryan_j 0]

Same as now. Chicago had too many murders, only in the 20s they used a few tommy guns (ref St. Valentie's massacre) so we had to do something right? In truth, the push was to ban handguns then as well, but that was removed and we were left with SBR, SBS, and automatic all requiring a prohibitive tax. Wait, that sounds familiar too, like Onamacare. Funny, how history repeats.

That makes sense.

 

Why I bring it up is because NJ wants to ban .50cal which have rarely (never?) been used in a crime. But it still has the "weapon of war" stigma, right or wrong. Just like machine guns did before they were banned. So I was wondering if machine gun crime got out of control or they are just dismantling the 2A piece by piece.

[wooly bugger 1]

I got to play with an M60 in Vietnam (I mean on a recent visit, not during the war.) I visited the Cu Chi tunnels in Saigon, where the VC hid out, and they had a shooting range where you could shoot all kinds of weapons after paying extremely inflated rates on the ammo. It was fun. I just shot bursts of 4 or 5 so I didn't go through prohibitive amounts of ammo. I'd definitely like a selective fire M-16 if legal.

[raz-0 1,259]

Nobody really answered the damn question. *sigh*

 

OK, the 1934 NFA stuff  really got put there for a handful of reasons working together. First, like there mostly still is today, was the general notion that armament wise, law enforcement is relegated to the cast offs of the military in terms of armament, technology, etc. They are an early downstream recipient of the benefit of military advancements, but still downstream. Leading up to the 1934 act, bolt guns, shotguns and revolvers were good enough for the military for most tasks, and thus the police got the same or worse. At the same time, you had the firearms industry producing all sorts of advanced armament that the military market was not biting on, nor was the LEO market. So they targeted civilian sales because they had a product they wanted to sell. Then you had prohibition in there which turned a lot of legitimate business men into crooks overnight, told the consumer they couldn't have what they wanted, and generally set the populace at odds with the government in general, and law enforcement in particular. This lead to a fairly vigorous conflict between LE and the newly minted criminals in which the criminals took full advantage of their bank accounts and went out and bought arms that were not just revolvers and shotguns.  And remember that this was also the dirty thirties of the great depression. Then prohibition got repealed in the end of 1933. You also had the new deal being pushed in 1933. With being busy with making a bunch of work, firing a bunch of armed tax men chasing down illegal booze probably didn't seem like a great plan, so why not stick with the plan to get at organized crime they created through prohibition and shift all those guys policing alcohol sales into guys policing firearms sales. Huzzah, busy work. 

 

 

Fast forward to 1986, and you are deep in the middle of the cocaine trafficking heyday.  The cartels were moving into the US, and Miami in particular. They were incredibly violent, and they were using a lot of illegally imported machine guns they had brought in along with the drugs. Thus, in the grand ideal of NJ, the way you deal with people forming death squads in US suburbs with a highly functioning supply line that extends to south america and brings in illegal drugs and guns in prodigious quantities, you pass another law that will give you a few extra years of charges to tack on to one of these scumbags, and along with it, criminalize a demographic of law abiding citizens that votes for the other party. Thus fixing nothing. Also in fine NJ tradition, you bend and break the rules of law in order to get it passed by having it amended to a bill you would rather see die in general at a late night session with a voice vote that you call as a win for you depsite the ffact that the video evidence doesn't really back it up. 

 

Nobody gave up anything, it was taken. 

[KpdPipes 388]

Now that you mention it I do remember hearing about a doctor in South Jersey with NFA weapons. This was from a reliable source in the 90s.

 

I was referring to the true value of the gun not the inflated prices caused in 1986. Prior to this you could buy a STEN for a few hundred dollars. Limiting FA weapons was a comprimise to get FOPA passed. The end result is a perfect example of supply and demand

 

Although I see little true need for FA, even for LE, I can't see why you shouldn't be able to have one. State laws aside, if you meet the criteria for buying a firearm from a FFL you can get a NFA weapon.

 

Shawn, I'd also be interested in what kind of business someone is in to have a legal privately owned FA weapon in NJ. IIRC the applicant has to prove to the judge something like "how the interests of the community would be served" by you owning a FA weapon.

 

If you have an FFL for selling NFA weapons you can "own" them because of the FFL.

It wasnt until 2C was adopted in the early 80's that MachineGuns were so heavily restricted here, before then, as long as you passed the NFA background you could have your Happy Switch  Hell it was easier in the 70's tpo get an MG than a Carry permit.  I would be surprised if there were more than a dozen Non FFL/SOT  MG owners in the state today, and i have no doubt at all that their names would be easily recognizable as Politicians or celebrities.

[ryan_j 0]

Thank you raz-0.

[bzer1 15]

Same as now. Chicago had too many murders, only in the 20s they used a few tommy guns (ref St. Valentie's massacre) so we had to do something right? In truth, the push was to ban handguns then as well, but that was removed and we were left with SBR, SBS, and automatic all requiring a prohibitive tax. Wait, that sounds familiar too, like Onamacare. Funny, how history repeats.

 

Ok, so it seems that the ban needs to be on Chicago, not on guns.